Another weird EAW processor setting

BTproductions

Ok on the 325's LF that PEQ3 with the -20db @ 545Hz with a Q of 5.66 completely wipes out PEQ2 on the output graph plot. PEQ2 is 315Hz 2.5db Q4.0. Does this not matter? Everything has been sounding good I was just playing with things and noticed that on the graph. Also found out I can hit more finite numbers on the crossover by using the dial and not just the software. I remember finding a settings menu that had a precesion select that made the dial have even more resolution but can't find it now?
Lastly I dropped my RTA mic from just above my waist and by chance it hit the stand base and on the tip of the mic! Did I hurt it?

Thanks -Mark

Dra

Mic drop - You'll know if it is damaged when you use.

Stacked PEQ's. A PEQ in a PEQ is not odd at all. The shape of the bell is changed, that's all.

DRA

BTproductions

Cool. At least I'm progressing through this thing. I've heard alot of ppl bad mouthing these and yet not know one bit about them. Also seen two guys with PA+'s in their racks and not using them! Like I read the EQ wizard works great outside! Inside not so much so far. I know I got more reading to do on it soo busy tho. I'm gonna setup outside hopefully this week before this saturdays show and get some presets saved to hopefully make life easier on what I already am stressing out about with this place. I got the second stage room with high cielings and all cinder block walls with an all window wall on my right side and a large hallway leading past the stage on the left. I already want another pair of LA400's!

Dennis

BTproductions wrote:

I've heard alot of ppl bad mouthing these and yet not know one bit about them.

If you compare the smaller DRs to similar priced DSPs, they're just fine....if you compare them to a $2000 to $3000 DSP, the comparison is unfair. Also, a lot of the people that are negative about DRs are actually negative about the auto features and are unable to mentally separate them from all of the other usable features you would find on any DSP. If you are cool with automatic EQing, use it! If you are not cool with automatic EQing, don't use it and it will have no effect on the crossover, manual GEQ and PEQ, delay, limiter. etc..

Good luck.

Gadget

Those that are na-sayers, or have em and don't use em obviously don't understand them and don't spend they're days and nights here!

Remember, the 260 is only as good as the measurement mic...and your setup/procedure...

Remember also that the measurement mic (especially inexpensive mics like this) are less accurate below 170hz and above 5K... so look at those changes with skepticism, and use your ears for them.

USE your EARS for everything...

In live rooms the BEST procedure is to make SURE that the sound is ON THE WATERBAGS (people) and off walls, ceilings and floors... :arrow: extremely inportant :idea:

The 260 is some serious kit...and you have the tools to make a huge difference in the sound. Heck just having the thing in the signal chain has improved the sound of most systems I have attached it to...I find things all the time that improve sound and I've been doing it with a 260 since it was introduced...

G

Dr. J

What's up fella's? Almost every sound enthusiast I know that has a problem with Driveracks or anything "digital" for that matter can't seem to sit still long enough to grasp the big picture. They just want everything to work in their favor without issue and absorb the glory although they had nothing to do with it. You can have that BUT you will pay a lot of cash for it. A LOT! Oh -- when this mentality strikes they all default to the classic phrase: "Analog is better or "warmer" then ditch the Driverack. Always an excuse.

After seeing a couple guys I am close to over the years struggle with this frame of mind repeatedly -- I completely chose a different route. Their way wasn't working for me and it certainly wasn't working for them either. Good luck to them -- I am moving on.

I finally convinced a friend of mine that the manufacturer settings would be the best way to go for his DSP. He has EAW speakers and a Peavey system controller. We downloaded the settings and entered them in and to our shock -- sounded like dog meat. What the heck went wrong?

I learned a while back that although it is best to use the manufacturer's intended settings -- it is just as important to use the controller they used to come up with those settings. Not all DSP's are the same & I find it hard to believe that ALL of the presets in system controllers were honestly given a fair shake for ALL of the different models of speakers AND amplifiers. Seriously -- who is going to sit down and go through all of that with endless speaker boxes and amp voltage gains.....etc... Seems too good to be true. I would probably love that job!

Even with the best measurement gear and knowledge, most of the experts in this field will immediately say: "load the manufacturer settings in please".

My advice to the original poster here on this topic is: IF you don't have the system controller they used to come up with your cabinet tunings AND amplifiers used to set gain structure -- this will be a long battle. Not saying you can't do it or even shouldn't. Maybe it is a money thing (usually is) and you have to make due with what you got. I am two years into and have had countless road blocks along with MAJOR breakthroughs. I actually long for the day I can purchase a system where the experts have refined it from the design to the chamber and out the door where I just plug my mixer in an go.

I won't consider everything I learned as waste at all because their is a lot of good can come out of it all. Kind of like learning a bunch of senseless math stuff for years and then the instructor says one day, "Well, you could use this formula -- it is much faster OR use a calculator". The point: Being stretched causes growth and when the day comes where you can have the Cadillac -- it will be a great day.

Here are my personal favorite moves to implement on tuning a system with various manufacturer items:

1. Gain structure first. Always. Achieves best signal to noise ratio and max clip point of all gear in signal chain.
2. Measure individual drivers ON AXIS one driver at a time using the POST Parametric EQ's. This is for driver flaw correction. I take down any peaks and smooth out the best I can. I then move the mic in 10-15 degree increments OFF Axis horizontally for a few positions. IF I see a peak pop up above the 0dB line -- I take it down. This will result in a dip when you re-measure in the ON Axis position BUT a dip is a subtle flaw compared to a peak -- so leave it. You could measure in the vertical plane as well BUT I would only go UP in the plane and not down because of the ground cancellation issue. We will deal with that in a bit but for now you want true free field correction with no boundaries. The ground is a boundary. Do this for the horns and the mid woofers on separate runs.
3. AFTER each driver has correction applied using POST PEQ's -- the exact center when combining should be found. How far out should you go? There seems to be a lot of agreement on 3-4 times the diagonal of the box or largest dimension of the box -- straight out. Any closer than that -- one driver may overtake the other.
4. Now you can combine both drivers and this is where your level setting between components gets adjusted. You know the max clip points on your amp now BUT that doesn't mean you will get to leave them there. Look to see if horns to mids are in balance. If not -- you will have to turn DOWN an amp to bring it into balance OR you will have to use the crossover output to do it.
5. Hopefully -- you have chosen the intended crossover points by the manufacturer and now need to add delay into the picture to align the components. What this really means is you are centering the LOBE. In Smaart -- it is very easy to do. With a dB meter -- invert one of the drivers (easy to do in the 260.... I/O button) and add delay until you see the lowest dB level you can get. Use a test tone that corresponds to your crossover setting ie. 1.8kHz . Flip polarity back when done. Important! If you delay the horn and can't get any response -- it probably isn't the horn that needs delay but the mid woofer instead. Try the other one.... note the delay in ms. You will have to do this again when aligning the top to the subs. This gets tricky because the components may not delay to each other exactly. We can add delay to everything and then subtract it though. With my system -- the mids need delayed to the horns BUT they also need delayed to the subs and it isn't the same delay amount. What do you do? I note how long it takes to delay the mid to the horn and write it down. It is .10ms (not much). Now it takes 1.71ms to delay the mids to the subs but now I am over for the horns. Solution: Now that the mids are behind the horns in order to match the subs -- I can now slow the horn down to match the mids. So adding 1.61ms to the horns compensates by the initial .10ms offset .10ms.

I know -- this is too much information and it causes headaches. Yeah it does BUT you could just go buy the EAW controller call up the preset and move on with life. That would be nice.

After all of this is done I leave the POST PEQ side of the 260 and my hope is to not go back to it. EVER......??

I then switch to the PRE INPUT PEQ side of the 260 so I DON'T mess up the driver correction & crossover summation side. If this stage is done correctly -- you will get a good bump over the crossover. There is a debate on whether this bump should be dealt with PRE PEQ's OR by POST PEQ's. I believe the textbook way is going back into the POST PEQ's and make the change BUT others just counter it with PRE PEQ's. I doubt that it is audible but one way may save you a PEQ or two.

6. After this I just go for an overall smoothing of the system to make it linear only Eqing dips above 1Khz. I will explain how to see cancellations below 1kHz in a second. When that is done. I move the mic in an arc around OFF Axis like before to see if any PEAKS pop up. There cannot be any peaks anywhere ONAX or OFFAX.

7. This is how to see cancellations in the response below a certain frequency. I use 1kHz because of how high my cab is up in the air and no matter where I measure -- everything above that point doesn't change. In a linear sense that is. Air loss / volume ...yes.

If my mic is out 8-9 feet -- I see dips in the response down around 200-300Hz and upstream a bit. The reaction is to fill it with an EQ BUT I feel that would be a mistake without moving the mic too a different length and rechecking. So with that said -- I move the mic in and mic out in one foot increments and what I find is that the majority of dips will move with you like a tidal wave. Where there once was a dip has filled itself automatically and cancelled somewhere else. With Smaart -- I take snapshots an overlay them. So it is easy to see where a dip fills by itself and cancellation occurs somewhere else & I don't end up EQing something that shouldn't be EQ'd. After the interrogating -- if a dip remains despite all the mic movements -- I will fill it and redo the process over a few times until everything smooths itself out. If I fill a dip and at some point it peaks up over the 0dB in a different mic position -- it was too much. Adjust accordingly.

This gives me the best free field response that I can get without using exactly what the manufacturer intended. Very linear, doesn't respond drastically to different mic positions. The rest is adjusting the low end and high end to taste.

Sorry for the blah blah blah....

One last thing: I measured my DBX M2 mic against a TR-40 the other day and wouldn't you know it -- they looked so darn close until it got to 5K where they deviated slightly. The kicker is: My system sounds a bit on the harsh side IF I leave the response flat on out. The TR-40 shows it as being down slightly at 5K. The DBX mic shows it is ok....... so this tells me the TR-40 would have me lift it a bit more right there and the system is plenty harsh enough where it is already at. Wrong move.

I have to do a gradual roll off in the upper frequencies on my system for it too not be harsh. FYI