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Should I separate the subs with my PX?
jperry01
Posts: 16
I have just upgraded my SX series Electro-Voice PA with their latest Live X powered PA system, consisting of two ELX115P powered speakers and two ELX118P powered subs. Still using my Mackie CFX12 mixer to drive them. The link to the specs of the EV speakers is
http://www.electrovoice.com/sitefiles/d ... Manual.pdf
Unfortunately I'm having a hard time to get a decent sound with this system, playing different venues is a serious problem now to get a good PA sound now. Maybe these speakers are so good that they just show up my challenged front of house skills more. We are a guitar/vocals duo using MP3 and Midi backing tracks. The sound I'm constantly being told is now rather flat and un-dynamic, particularly from the backing tracks, whereas before we sounded quite musical and punchy. Sound checks are not easy as we always have customers already in the venues when we arrive.
So I have now purchased a new Driverack PX in the hope of obtaining a decent sound again, only to realize after checking out this forum it ain't gonna be as easy as the reviews have led me to believe.
Anyway, to get me started, should I use the PX into just the powered subs, which then feed the powered speakers. Or would it be better to separate the subs and speakers and use all four outputs from the PX?
John
http://www.electrovoice.com/sitefiles/d ... Manual.pdf
Unfortunately I'm having a hard time to get a decent sound with this system, playing different venues is a serious problem now to get a good PA sound now. Maybe these speakers are so good that they just show up my challenged front of house skills more. We are a guitar/vocals duo using MP3 and Midi backing tracks. The sound I'm constantly being told is now rather flat and un-dynamic, particularly from the backing tracks, whereas before we sounded quite musical and punchy. Sound checks are not easy as we always have customers already in the venues when we arrive.
So I have now purchased a new Driverack PX in the hope of obtaining a decent sound again, only to realize after checking out this forum it ain't gonna be as easy as the reviews have led me to believe.
Anyway, to get me started, should I use the PX into just the powered subs, which then feed the powered speakers. Or would it be better to separate the subs and speakers and use all four outputs from the PX?
John
0
Comments
Question #2: Do you have the "Full Range" or "With Sub" selected?
Question #3: Where do you have the Loudspeaker Level and Input Levels set?
Question #4: What system did you have before, when it was "punchy"?
DRA
Most MP#'s ARE lifeless and un-dynamic ...especially dependent on the bit rate and compression scheme... (what scheme are you using?)
Are you using the "with sub" I assume?
Can you flesh out the differences between the old and new speakers? what is different? were you using subs?
The Driverack will make it easier to go from venue to venue and have consistency... however you might have well had better sound with the DRPA..and one of the things you could have incorporated is aux fed subs.. for greater control of the low end...
There is a LOT of info in the "Start here" thread:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=959
and the FAQ section:
viewforum.php?f=60
Where we break down the different aspects of sound productions...check those out, answer the questions and ask any other questions you want answered...
gadget
Hi, thank you for the advice, which I will try out. I did suspect it would be better to use the four outputs of the PX, even though the EV's are designed to work as a complete system. Interesting you advise auto eq with subs not connected, but sounds a good idea as most of sound quality would come from the main speakers I would think.
John
Hi, I actually did wonder whether I should have got the 112's, I got the 115's because I thought I could use them without carrying sub's to smaller gigs, It seemed logical to get the bigger 115's after using 12inch passive subs and 12inch passive tops. Are the 112P's that much better, or work better with the subs?
I was using 'with sub selected' and flat eq settings on all speakers.
The Input Levels and Loud speaker Levels were set all the same amount (between half and three quarters) I'm used to setting these on my CFX12 Mixer, but have no experience setting them on powered speakes as well.
My last system was two EV SX100+ Speakers, Two EV SB121 Bass Modules, Controller was EV XP200a for X over and speaker protection and bass enhancement. Subs powered by EV P1200 power amp and Speakers powered by EV Q66 power amp. Plenty of headroom with that system.
Thanks for your interest, John
Hi Gadget,
Yes MP3's do have a lot of compression, I was using mine at 320 kbps with a new MP3 player. Previously I was using a laptop with Wave files which had no compression. I can go back to the wave files ok.
Yes, I was using the 'with sub' setting.
The previous had good bass, mid and high separation. The XP200a controller could really enhance the bass without loosing the mids and highs, you could get a real good thump from those 12 inch subs.
Now I have another dilema, I do actually have a new DRPA that I intended to use with the old system, but never got around to finding the time to play with it. Also the old system sounded pretty good anyway. I was going to sell it on Ebay.
Are you serious I shaould use that instead of the PX with powered speakers?
John
Yes, I did mean that the DRPA+ would work well for the powered speakers, has a far better Auto Eq algorithm and sounds better... Plus you can do a mono tops/subs with crossover, and a a single monitor send as well...something you CANNOT do with PX...
The 12" speaker is the key to why the SX sounded better to you...even the 12" subs are more musical for that very reason... consider this...you have a Ferrari...in a Ferrari car... now you take the same engine and put it in a dump truck...which will start... and stop faster...The Ferrari of course...far less mass to start and stop... now consider how a speaker works...starts and stops a LOT and the greater mass of a 15, or 18" driver increases the distortion factors..as well as fidelity in the mids and upper mids. Also consider that a 15 inch driver starts to beam between 500 and 800 hz, and a 12" starts around 1200... hz some higher yet. When you consider that in a speaker like the ones you just bought...have a 15" AND a 1" exit horn driver that is crossed in @1700hz.. that leaves all the way from 500-1700 hz in the beaming region..(Beaming where frequencies.. instead of covering a whole area...beam like as in a baseball bat to some area's..and not to others).
The 12" however goes from 1200 hz to 1700 a FAR less critical area, and a lot less potential for sonic chaos.. and a more focused sound...
The Auto EQ will help smooth out those 15's somewhat, but again.. the more you have to EQ a speaker... the more sonic chaos your adding, because filters (EQ bands) cause phase shifts and other sonic anomalies along with the equalization...The cheaper the EQ the more chaos...
Can everyone detect these sometimes small differences.. no, but obviously YOU can...and it WILL bug you...
The SX were considered a very good sounding box.. not sure about the new ones..
all for now..'
G
That really makes a lot of sense to me, I understand what you are saying here Gadget. That must be why a previous post recommended I try and swop the 15's for the 12's. Perhaps the store should have advised me better, thats all they sell...PA's and related equipment. I shall pay them a visit and discuss this with them.
I'll have to hope that the Driverack will help me out big time here. I have just had the OK to swop the DRPX back for a DRPA+ as it has been unused, so that's a step in the right direction. The reason I changed the PA was to make our lives easier with less equipment and cables to lug and have to connect up each gig, plus greater reliability.
I have a smaller gig next weekend, I'll just take the 115's and see how they go on their own. by then I should have got the replacement DRPA+ sent to me here in Sydney, where I'll spend a day with everything at the rehearsal studio.
Meantime, I'll go through the 'start here' section of the forum more fully.
Can anyone advise a better format for backing tracks, MP3's definately don't sound very good.
John
Perhaps the VBR (variable bit bit rate) scheme would work better for you... there is no compression, and the idea is that it takes bits from unused portions of the sound spectrum, and uses them in places where there IS sound... this doesn't skimp on the stuff where sound is reproduced.. only the part of the spectrum that isn't used...
I have a guy that comes in to the casino with it all on his I-phone, simply patches in to the board from his dock'' and calls up the songs he wants, or has a preset set list that he runs through.. some songs he has all the band do without backing tracks, and some are MOSTLY backing tracks...pretty darn cool rig...only drawback is during the 'tracks' songs the band could just as well be cardboard cutouts
Otherwise I also have groups that come in with a MD (mini disk) player, and some with laptops running digital performer or one of any number of programs that even run the lights and have announcer tracks that even control intelligent lighting and fog machines... I mean I have one guy that comes in and has the WHOLE show programmed.. all he does is play along with the tracks.. with electric guitar, keys, acoustic... whatever, and EVERY aspect of the music AND the control comes from the program.. it's pretty darn slick.
Do get the Measurement mic as well though because it will help in SO many ways.. from auto Eq to feedback identification.. to identifying whats potentially wrong with the backing tracks sonically...all in realtime, which the PX won't do either..
If you use a monitor you really should try the method I describe here:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2228
There is also a LOT of content in the FAQ section about optimization... like this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=953
and this thread is on page 2 of the FAQ's that no-one ever seems to find...
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=960
Suffice it to say that there really isn't a lot of knowledgeable people at the Guitar Center (major local retail corporate pirate's)... local music shops... they just don't really have any idea what they are doing...and follow edicts from the perspective of the bottom line.. and be damned what works..or sounds best. :roll:
G
Well I've been using a very good audio converter called Sound Switch File Converter, it has two mp3 encoder settings.....Constant or Variable. I'll try the variable one, although it's still 320 kbps max with Constant, 320 max and minimum with Variable setting. The program also converts mp3's to Wave or to many other types. It will convert a 4meg mp3 to a 42meg Wave, so would I be correct assuming that all the origional dynamics of the file are magically extracted from the air and restored to the new Wave file?
You have given me much to think about Gadget, I'll read up on these recommendations. Also I was going to ask about monitors but you pre-empted me.
I know how it feels when we have someone bringing a few of their own backing tracks, and we have to be the cardboard cut-outs to make them look good Ha Ha.
I spoke to the manager of our local bowling club last night, and he will lets us use the club during the day when it's not busy to test the DRPA+ when it arrives, so I'll keep in touch and let you all know how it goes.
John
no..
I mean...
Seriously though downward conversion is marginal.. the VBR is best or lossless audio codec (FLAC).. then some of the others but they generally have bigger file sizes... BUT upward conversion... no, there's no way of re-capturing the lost audio... sorry.
With the DRPA+ make sure you get far enough out from the speakers to allow the sound to develop fully..(20-25'...) and remember to take into consideration the 3dB down points of the speakers.. and don't bother with the low end auto Eq if there is even a HINT of a question about ANY reflective surfaces...
Also remember that with indoor venues .. those 15's will be STOUT in the low mids and will load up the room MUCH more than the 12's...The area's of concern are usually 160~ and 250 -500 hz...usually I set up a PEQ to handle these...
Well all for tonight..The night is about to end.. doin old time country with "Indian country" life is good...as long as we can get rid of this obamanation of a president that's dog-in the country and hindering the worlds economic recovery...
Off the soapbox for the time being...
G
There are basically 4 types of people that vote.
1) Those that are not racist and will do anything to not be viewed as one. Voted for.
2) Those that are not racist, but will not abandon rational thought. Voted against.
3) Those that are racist, and therefore will always vote for him. Voted for.
4) Those that are racist, so would never vote for him. Voted against.
I still fear a repeat. Group 4 is too small to make a difference (in the electoral college). Group 3, well...
Group 1 has to join group 2, but will they.
Here G. You can have your soapbox back.
DRA
G
I thought that would be the case, pity.....I wonder what the extra 35meg consist of when the MP3 is converted to a Wave...hmmm, I'll have to stop buying these mp3 backing tracks, and just use midi files, they do sound pretty good out of my M-Live Merish Plus. The only problem with midi's is I haven't figured out how to add backing vocals along with the midi.
John
Hi Gadget,
I'm about to post off the DRPX for an DRPA+ exchange. Just remembered you mentioned using a DRPA earlier on.
I already have a new DRPA here plus the DRPX.
Would it be worth getting the PA+ or would I be better keeping the PX and PA for my requirements? at least I could try out both types. But if the PA+ is worth the wait, let me know.
John
No you'll never get vocals out of a midi track unless you use control voltage to trigger something with voice on it...
Are you familliar with Aux fed subs?
G
No Gadget, I'm not familiar with Aux fed Sub's, just Aux feed to the foldback on my CFX12 mixer. Looks like something else I'll have to get my head around.
John
Webinar - The Mixing Workshop: Session 2, Subs on an Aux (1 hour)
Online - 7am PT (-8 GMT)
Instructor:Buford Jones
in English
Free seminar
Nov 1, 2011
http://www.meyersound.com/events/semina ... p?id=00713
Webinar - The Mixing Workshop: Session 2, Subs on an Aux (1 hour)
Online - 9am PT (-8 GMT)
Instructor:Buford Jones
in English
$0
Nov 1, 2011
http://www.meyersound.com/events/semina ... p?id=00714
There is also a brief introduction here in our FAQ section:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1469
G
I can see what you mean about all those bass frequencies bouncing around, I think that was a bit of my problem last week, combined with a poorly eq'd mixer. Years of playing in front of a loud PA seriously challenges my hearing/mixing skills. Anyway, looking forward to actually using a driverack instead of leaving it in cupboard for months.
We are just a duo, two guitars and one main vocal plus backing tracks. So we wouldn't be miking up any drums, bass etc. I know what you mean by separating the kick etc, but would auxing the subs help us much? as our drums n bass etc is all on the same backing track. Anyway I'll see how it sounds next week when I try it all out.
John
www.mygenerationduo.com.au
DRA
I too have gone Aux Fed wherever possible, and it makes a LOAD of difference in livesound where there is a lot of open mics and or difficult room conditions.
Gadget
Maybe I'm missing something.
DRA
I think I have been looking at this 100% backwards.
Crap! Just when I thought I figured it out...
To avoid a lengthy answer, let'd do this in simple steps.
System constists of 2) main speakers (let's say that they are Peavey 12" + 1", passive), 1) JBL SRX728, DR260 (x-over @ 100hz), and 1) amp with no proccessing (mains on one side and subs on the other).
AUX fed sub set-up.
Step #1
What speakers reproduce these inputs? Possible answers: M (main only), S (sub only), M&S (main & sub)
Vocal mic -
Acoustic guitar (w/ pick-up) -
Bass guitar -
Kick drum -
Keyboard -
Snare mic -
Backing track (full orchestral) -
Thanks for humoring me,
DRA
Your correct in that you wouldn't be able to separate FULLY the bass from tracks or ANY other instrument or vocal ... however you CAN control the amount of those signals sent to the subs... Lets assume for a moment that we are talking about a female singer...there is NO usable information in her voice below 100 hz, on the other hand.. lets say we are doing sound for the Oakridge boys...Their low voice person actually uses an octaver to lower his voice...
But really, if your trying to do a male vocalist you can dial in any amount of bass.. or none at all, by simply using the aux send on that channel strip ... makes the low shelf control (especially if set @ 75 hz) a moot point... but if it's at 100 hz you still have significant information to deal with even if the slope is quite steep from 100 hz down... also remember that the electrical and acoustic xover point are often quite different.
So that said your list looks like this to me:
What speakers reproduce these inputs? Possible answers: M (main only), S (sub only), M&S (main & sub)
Vocal mic -MS dependent mostly M
Acoustic guitar (w/ pick-up) -M
Bass guitar -MS
Kick drum -MS
Keyboard -MS
Snare mic -M
Backing track (full orchestral) -MS
I'll add:
Toms: M
Floor tom: MS
horns:M except the obvious like oboe bassoon....ect are MS
Synth: MS
hi hat:M
Guitar/electric: Mostly M
harmonica:M
you get the picture right?
G
The new PA+ arrived today, there's a lot of information here since my origional post that I need to digest, thanks for all your interest. I also received the new RTA-M mike a few days ago.
I hope to have access to a club during the day in about a weeks time to try out all your suggestions. My first task I think is to setup and gain structure, I have a CD with about 20 minutes of pink noise that I can feed into the CFX12, and go from there. If I turn the volume control down on all the EV's I can set that part up in my lounge room without annoying anyone. Unless theres a better way to set gain structure.
I'll keep you posted.
John.
DRA
Thanks, that's how I understood it to be. Just wanted to make sure I started off on the right course.
John