Which RTA mic for Smaart would suit my needs best?

BTproductions

Hi all my system has grown to 4 LA400's and I got a pair of 460's also. My goal is another pair of each then I'll focus on a second system and use my 325's for it. So we're getting pretty serious now and there's a class on RTA micing with Smaart coming to Pittsburgh the beginning of December we're going to attend. Been getting mixed results with the driverack and really feel some hands on instruction will take us a long way.
So we do only electronic music at the highest volumes possible with a strong focus in the bass frequencies. I see different mics have their strengths and weaknesses. What would do me best at around $500 and what would be the no compromise I don't care on prices mic?

Thanks -Mark

Dr. J

I would say a matched pair, triad or even a quad set of these would be just fine: http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/c ... inger.html

I have and use Smaart every weekend with the DBX mic & it is fine. I borrowed an Audix TR40 just to see how the DBX mic compared and to my surprise the DBX and TR40 were very close together. They started to drift around 5k.

Here is another thing. The same place I borrowed the mic from has a Earthworks M30. I tried to get it BUT they wouldn't do it because it stays in the shop as reference. They told me it tracks very close to the Audix TR40 and that is what they use in the field.

A lot of the Smaart guys are recommending using the ECM8000's from cross-spectrum. They are pretty cheap. Calibrated and consistent. What you will find is that almost everyone ends up adjusting the Low end and the high end by ear (to taste) anyways......... which is really where high end mics and cheap ones differ.

If you are going to get into Smaart v7 with multiple mics -- I think the Calibrated ECM8000's are perfect. You need matched mics for smaart 7.

Also -- not sure what Driverack you have. Hopefully the 260. If not -- that extra money would go well towards the power of a 260.

BTproductions

I already have a dbx mic and yes the 260. I wasn't aware I would need multiple mics. I havent actually read too much into it cause I figured it would be covered at the class and all. I know I only need to show up with a laptop and I thought it said only 1 mic. Ya it had to cause they said you can just use your sound card for the purposes of the class. I have an Allen and Heath zed14 which I think will work as an interface? Hmm could I just buy another dbx and have them calibrated together? I'm noticing the louder I run pink noise the worse my eq comes out on the driverack. I was thinking a mic that handles more spl was what I needed to be after. I can't wait to take this class I'm gonna learn so much!

Thanks -Mark

Dr. J

Cool -- the 260 is great. The DBX mic you have will be fine for now. You don't have to have more than one mic to use Smaart v7 BUT it makes life easier to set up a couple of mics and then you get the results without having to move the mic around.

It may be better to start off with one mic and learn how to do basic ON axis measurements or even ground plane measurements. Once you get that down -- you could venture out into moving the mic around. I kept it simple my first year.

You may be able to use your ZED as the interface. I have the Presonus SL and it can be used as my interface BUT I haven't figured out how to use my routing configurations to make it work. I have asked the Smaart people & Presonus how to route it but no one knew for sure.

Here is the deal in the Smaart set up: You have to tap into the MAIN out coming off your board. I use a "Y" cable. One part of the Y carries onto the DR260 like normal. The other Y goes to the INPUT 2 on my external interface. The measurement mic goes into INPUT 1 on the interface. The interface is connected to a computer with Smaart software on it. You play pink noise thru the system which is fed into a channel strip so it can go thru the board on out to the speakers. No more Auto EQ Pink noise on the DR. You don't need it.

Now lets get rid of the interface and use the board as the interface. You connect yours with a USB (I think) mine is thru firewire. Since the Main out signal is "tapped" into on an external interface -- it will now just be routed back into a channel strip. To me it seems like a LOOP that I am not sure would work right or actually damage something. I am not a computer savy guy when it comes to internal routing of stuff like that. That is why I use the external interface.

If you are computer savy -- you could probably figure it out. I know a guy who claims he has done this with the Presonus board so I will ask him and get back with you.

If you have at least a two channel interface (MBox......or something like that) you may be able to use it as an interface. I have used the MBox and now I have the Presonus FireStudioMobile which works great.

With Smaart -- you don't have to push the volume ANYWHERE close to the auto EQ method. Very quiet & I do it right in front of my neighbors most of the time. Never a complaint.

Dennis

BTproductions wrote:

What would do me best at around $500 and what would be the no compromise I don't care on prices mic?

Earthworks S30 $459
DPA 4007 $1925

The more you read up on SMAART now, the more you will absorb at the seminar....and do all 3 days of the class.

BTproductions

wow guys thanks! My head is spinnig still from your last post Dr.J I'll re-read it a few times and get it just not now after 9.5 hrs of working in a machine shop crunching numbers! Dennis I wasn't sure about the 3rd day class if I'd be far enough along to make it worth it. Now I'll have to look into it or rather just take your word and do it. So on mics tho I seem to be gathering that what I'm seeing in the driverack as a problem with high decibels won't be a problem with Smaart and my DBX mic is a good start if not plenty good for my use? If so that saves me money and makes day 3 that much more affordable! Sweet!

Thanks -Mark

Dennis

BTproductions wrote:

wow guys thanks! My head is spinnig still from your last post Dr.J I'll re-read it a few times and get it just not now after 9.5 hrs of working in a machine shop crunching numbers! Dennis I wasn't sure about the 3rd day class if I'd be far enough along to make it worth it. Now I'll have to look into it or rather just take your word and do it. So on mics tho I seem to be gathering that what I'm seeing in the driverack as a problem with high decibels won't be a problem with Smaart and my DBX mic is a good start if not plenty good for my use? If so that saves me money and makes day 3 that much more affordable

The first two days is all technical information in a class room setting. The third day is a real world application of all that you learned in the first two days. The third day will be held in a theater or similar venue. For me, the big picture didn't come together until taking the third day....saving $150 wouldn't have been a bargain.

The DBX mic will be fine. Doing measurements at a venue often results with mic stands falling over and measurement mics hitting cement. You won't feel as bad when the damaged mic only cost you $50 to $100 in the first place. When you purchase the $500 mic, leave it at home and use it as a tester to compare to all of your cheap mics. When one of the cheapies starts to look noticeably different from your $500 reference mic, it's time to send that cheapie in for repair (or replace).

Dr. J

BT -- You don't have much time if you are going to catch the Pittsburgh seminar. I am assuming you are going for Smaart 7 & that is most likely what they will be using to train with. I am on Smaart v6 which is for single mic measurements & it is perfect for that.

Unfortunately -- the v.6 manual makes more sense AFTER you know some things.... I read it before I knew what I was doing and it didn't make any sense.

I have read the v. 7 manual and it makes way better sense BUT then again -- I am a few years down the road now.

Start off by viewing all the videos on Rational's site if you already haven't. There is even a Power Point presentation available that is real good. Also, there is the manual. Gotta start somewhere so just dive in and get going on it so that when you get to the seminar -- things will go smoother for you.

If you have any questions -- I may be able to help you.

BTproductions

I will get on it and do as much reading up as I can. Fortunately I'm considered "gifted" so I learn fast and remember things well. It's just one of those things that comes easily to me Hey by any chance are there any of you close to the Canton OH area on here that I could hit up and possibly have come help me tech my system at a venue on this coming saturday afternoon? Idk if I could pay much beyond gas money and dinner. I'm barely making anything off it as I owed the promoter but the place is too big for my system and had horrible acoustics. I think it used to be a department store. The back wall the stage is facing is all glass windows and the floor is concrete and the walls are all cinderblock. I never am able to setup and play around much before a show and there is no where I've found that I can just setup and mess around for a day it's just too loud ya know. You guys know of anyone near that area that may be willing to lend an upstart guy like myself a hand?

Thanks -Mark

Dr. J

Wish I could help you but I have a Pantera Tribute band coming in this weekend.

Sounds like places that I have to deal with all the time. The best you can hope for is to have a packed house. It will be a waste to go in there and try to tune up the system to the room dead empty because if the place fills up -- it is going to change.

Gadget has a method of placing a few parametrics in various places to take out room modes and such and I have to tell you -- I have done it myself and it works pretty well. Of course -- your system has to be flattened or the response smoothed out first.

Once you add reflective walls to your system -- you get buildups & cancellations. I am sure you already know this.... so you may have to tame down those areas so they don't dominate.....ie.... one note bass.

It seems to me (just like Gadget says) that areas in the typical reflective room have issues around 60Hz, 100Hz, 160-Hz & even up around 400-500Hz. My system can show a really smooth response outdoors and once I take it into a venue -- certain frequencies just buildup and have to be tamed. You can use a music CD and boost low frequencies and SWEEP back and forth on the frequencies and I bet an area will jump out as being waay louder. Apply a cut there either on your house graphic or a separate patch in the 260.

Pull a little 400-500Hz down and hear how it cleans up the mix possibly. Depends on where your frequency response is at....

Maybe this may help you: Dave Rat has a series of youtube videos out there and one of them is how he uses a set of headphones with a KNOWN FLAT response to tune the system in the room. I have done this with great success since it is nearly impossible for me to run Smaart inside a venue. Pink Noise only annoys people BUT a good CD that hasn't been compressed to within 3dB plus good headphones may help you reveal some things about your system that may be really helpful & the audience just thinks you are playing music.

Check it out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU9BmupC62c

There are also some room mode calculators out there that maybe helpful as well. Punch in Room dimensions and it will tell you the room modes.

Gadget

As Dr J said.. and if you can somehow get the tops up high or get them as high as possible AND aim them down at the water bags... and off the walls, and windows...

Sorry I live way the hell up in BFE northern Mn...
G

Dr. J

BT -- I located the guy I worked with a while back on using your mixer as the interface with Smaart -- he is out of town at the moment but will send me an email when he gets a chance. I will relay the info to you. I am curious on how this works as well but like I said -- I am no good with internal specifics of computers and routing firewire or usb stuff. Don't have the desire I guess.

@ Gadget -- must of lost you the other night when you were traveling thru the "Dead Zone". I figured it would be waste to try and call you back. Anyways -- I will chat with you more later G.

BTproductions

Cool Cool Thanks guys! And ya I'm not flying my tops for one night even if I could! LOL

Gadget

Can't you tip them down a bit?
G

BTproductions

I suppose a couple inchs of foam insulation under the back feet and strap them in place... Think it will help that much? I don't want to loose the coverage to the very back either... This is gonna be one ghetto rigged high dollar system!

Gadget

"Get the music ON the people and OFF the hard surfaces...." yes it makes all the difference in the WORLD! Why not use wood wedges... :roll: geez... forgot these were LA325's... with near conical HF...well it's worth a try.. how far is the back wall again? the good thing is that's not a very long throw horn...

Anyway it should help a lot if you can find a happy medium...but yes definitely strapem down...

Good luck..
G

BTproductions

Na I got a pair of 460's now We used the 325's for stage monitors!!! lol Got some props from the DJ's for that no actually got some holy shit your using 325's for minitors! Yea I blew the place apart and those SB850 cabinets which I only got 3 up and running really did the trick! I spread them across the front of the stage on the ground on their sides and one has those whatever drivers in it but still sounds pretty equal. Delayed them 8.5 or so ms because they were a bit further foreward than the 400's which I put the 460's on then also a pair of FR159z's to cover the outer sides more. Delayed the 460's 5.5ms per EAW estimates and come to think of it may have forgotten to delay the 159's which ran off a seperate driverack PA+ cause those are so bright theres no way to get them sounding equal especially with one GEQ. After having a major breakdown and replacing a trailer tire only to find whatever we hit bent the axle so bad the whell was on a 30deg canter it's a miracle we even got there at all alone setup in time to just do a by ear soundcheck 15 min before show time! I will say this tho when running these tops in fullrange and not bi-amped they GEQ almost dead flat and sound great. That goes for both the 325's and 460's. I'm going to continue with them that way untill i can afford EAW processors. At least for the 325's I really don't feel the 260 worked. I always got a negative full 12 db drop at 315hz which is where the PEQ called for a -20db but could only get -12db with the 260. The 460's would probably fair better but I'm having a hard time finding a suitable amp for the high's which only need 150w. A QSC PLX anything doesn't even come down near close to that. I would eventually like to have another pair of 400's and two or three pairs of 460's so at least 3 pair of 400's and two pair of 460's. That would be my main system and I want to use the 325's in a B system for smaller rooms paired with a pair of 118z's to get them up to proper height and then one or two of the SB850's along with that system and we got two real banging rooms! For one massive stage like this past weekend I can bring it all together like I did. Only using Smaart to get all my delays and everything correct! BTW I blew a 30A circuit with that powerlite 6.0 but it had a couple small lights plugged in as well. Took them out and ran only that amp on three cabinets on that one circuit and was fine except once when we must have clipped and it blew again but I wasn't there to see it happen so idk. Wow long hard weekend! I left my house this morning at 10 am to retrieve my trailer and drive it to the dealer's I got it from trade it in for a dual axle plus another 2ft (6x10 to a 6x12) drive back to the venue and pack up my speakers and come home at 10pm! Yup this weekend was a major loss but I've learned and lived through it and will continue with it cause I'm lovin it......