Drum mic questions

premier1

So I switched out My beta52a for an Audix d6 thinking my sound would tighten upon the kick a bit and get an overall better responce. Wow was I wrong,no matter what I do I cannot get this mic to sound good? Inside the drum, outside the drum, front head no front head, etc etc...could I have a bad mic or is there some trick Im missing? I am running this mic though a dbx 166xs comp-gate and then just using the EQ in the Crown XTI, I can get massive bottom but no click, I cant get punch, I tried raising 60 to 80 with a fairly wide q and that made it worse, anyway where should I look next or is the beta acually a better mic? thx

Gadget

I have the Beta... I'd trade for a D6 ANY DAY! You can't be serious about running it directly into the 166xls and then directly into the amp though right? please list the exact signal chain...

Gadget

premier1

well, yes im serious, i have the 166 patched in the insert on the kick chanel then i use aux 4 send and run that to the xti, i mean at the very least i need to gate the thing to tighten it up right? so, aux send 4 directly to xti, 166 used on the insert of the chanel.I know about the d6 thats why i got rid of the beta, heard all these awesome things about! Anyway, when i bypass the 166 without a gate its just to out of control and loses that punch so im using the gate for that reason, Basically I have no front head on my kick, I use an evans retro screen, the mic is on a stand centered on that front head, one good size pillow in the kick, I am far more a "punch guy" than a boom guy! Punch and click is what I like, nice and tight. Now granted im using 18s and maybe 15s are more punchy? back to the xti, I low passed at 35k and high passed at 100. No subsynth etc just using the out eq and have a small 3db boost from 60 to 80 anyway only had the mic a few days so its a process

Dra

"I am running this mic though a dbx 166xs comp-gate and then just using the EQ in the Crown XTI." :shock:
.....and.....
"yes im serious, i have the 166 patched in the insert on the kick chanel then i use aux 4 send and run that to the xti"

....are 2 different things. Clarity is a wonderful thing.

Need more clarity. Please lay out how the sound of the kick drum mic is routed to get to the main speakers.

DRA

Gadget

well, yes im serious,

As Dra said you ARE kidding.. so your running Aux fed subs then right? When I asked for exact signal chain what I meant was

1. Audix D6 > channel #1 Aux send 3 (post fader) (Allen and Heath GL2200)
2. Inserted dbx 166xl on channel #1
3. Aux send 3> XT1 4000 bridged mono > EAW LA400 X 2

This way we can get the whole picture. I know you've been around a while, and probably posted the system components but frankly we don't always have time to look back and find the information...

Dra, for instance has his mixer, speakers, amps and driverack model listed... Me.. it would take up WAY too much space...

But know this.. it takes a really good woofer to give you good punchy kick...and a PV 118 or Behringer sub isn't going to give you what you want.
G

premier1

I digress and I do apologize! Having said that, let me clarify whats going on, On my board,I use chanel 4 as my kick chanel, I use aux number 4 post fader, So yes, Aux fed subs

1. Audix D6 > channel #4 Aux send 4 (post fader) (Allen and Heath Zed mixer)
2. Inserted dbx 166 on Ch. 4

3. Aux send 4 to Crown XTI 2OOO IN Bridge Mono, Limiter set to -6db...Crossover gains on XTI set to 10db both LP and HP Engaged, LP SET @ 35 BW 24...HP SET @ LR 24 100 in band manager on the in eq, I only have the lp and hp engaged at 7db each not using any eq exept for that small boost I talked about between 60 and 80...Why is it with this amp that if you completely turn off the DSP you have no pwer or volume? even with the attenuaters up all the way? I have to always at least turn the crossover gain up to get anything? am I missing something with the XTI?

Im am Using Habinger HX118S SUBS at the moment X 2..Sending I am assuming, 1000 watts to each sub as this amp bridged into 4 ohms puts out 2000 watts, I am daisy chaining one sub to the other Creating a 4 ohm load.. Here are the speaker specs, this is all there is, I will say this these specs are underated alot because pushing 400 into these barley moves the cone! I took one apart to peak inside and to fix a couple rattles and on the magnet it appears to be that these drivers are made by "ev" seems like quality to me, everything looked well made, cabs are insulated and caulked etc, and they were a very good buy vs buying a "brand name", Far better than behringer or peavy 118, I had those peaveys before and they were worthless...anyway here are the specs of the cab

Power Handling (RMS): 400 Watts
Power Handling (Peak Sine): 800 Watts
Power Handling (Peak Program): 1600 Watts
Frequency Response: 32 Hz — 250 Hz
Nominal Impedance: 8 Ohms22"H x
Sensitivity (1w, 1m): 98 dB
Max SPL: 128 dB
Dimensions (L x W x H): 27" x 23" x 22"
Weight: 95 lbs

Now while I am trying to figure out what "sine" vs "rms" means, I never heard of "peak sine" before and have no clue what it means.. I can say these cabs need and like alot of power and seem to have no trouble handeling it, they hit fairly hard for what they are, as I heard them on a well tuned system and they hit me in the chest, there were 4 of them however lol but I Liked them and grabbed a couple also and every review i have read etc..everyone seems to say the same common thread, and that is to feed these cabs some power, within reason of course and most are happy with the sound, anyway having said that, I can say it seems to me my comp/gate is overly sensitive, a minute change in the gate setting makes a world of difference in the tightness or punch of the kick and I just am having trouble finding a happy place with my comp/gate settings, as for the settings, on the comp they are as follows...Ratio 6:1 attack fast...release slow.. threshold set at -30 over easy OFF....Gain set at +10 db..limiter set to off, the gate is set very high -30 OR so...on the chanel eq on the board they are all set to flat, the chanel 4 strip signal is sent to the tops somehow lol, I dont know but its there and it gives me some click but it isnt enough to make me happy, I get more by raising the parametric in the DR around the 4k area, As I said my main and biggest concern is punch, I understand that with only two subs I am not going to knock walls down but I do expect something better than what I have now,which is more boom than punch still, even with the gate set to open and close very fast,I am just looking to get the most out of what I have at the moment until I can get the funds to purchase some high end subs! and of course more power, and I know power is key and lots of it for subs! I Will say this, in the places we play they are not huge venues sometimes we can hardly fit on the stage! I have been told my kick can be heard and i can certainly feel it, but its just that more a feel than hear thing, Also I always put them together on one side of the stage never set them apart...I hope This info helps and maybe you can give me some ideas on comp settings, eq etc to get most out of what I have, Thanks guys! I spent so much time and MONEY making the singer happy, that I forgot myself lol! and im the drummer, the sub issue got neglected but its time to fix that! Anyway....One last thing,My kick is the only thing in the subs, no bass guitar no nothing else only kick

premier1

Now that I re -read my post lol, you guys are right! I did in fact say I was running the mic directly into the 166....Yikes :oops: So Im sorry for that! I have just been tweaking and adjusting and running back and forth to the PC to find answers etc..lol...I swear my wife is going to divorce me over this "sound" compulsion, its like drugs!

One other question, it is feasable for me to just buy raw speakers and retro fit them into the box, do you guys have any feelings or info on the Eminence Kilomax 18s? there $ 300 each but have massive power handeling abilities, maybe a couple of those and a new xti 4 or 6000 would put me in the ballpark? sure its nice to have 4-6-8 subs but someone has to lug those around and its just not feasable for the smaller to medium bars-clubs we play..I would really like to do this with two cabs..Thanks again

Dra

Will your mixer allow you to audit the aux send with headphones? If so, how does the kick sound?

DRA

Gadget

NO... the Kilomax SUX! Worst driver Eminence makes! there are better drivers in the same range price wise.

Putting any old driver in an existing cab is NO a good idea...

I was trying to get you to tell us WHICH subs you have and which amp...

2 cabs to create gut wrenching sound takes a hell of a sub and a really big amp!

I just got a Digam 7000 amp UUFDA now thats power in a small package! 6 labsubs.. one, one rack space 17 lb amp...FEEL it 1/2 a mile away... :twisted:

So trell us what box and what amp... the XTi amps don't make great sub amps... except for the 6000... the 4000 is supposedly ~

G

premier1

Harbinger HX118...X 2....Specs are in my above post as is the Amp Crown XTI 2000 In bridge mono. My mains are powered active so no other amp needed...anyway I already know the answer and that is I ned more or better subs and more amp, no ther way around it..Looks like the money pit will never end!

Gadget

:oops: somehow I missed the post where you laid out what you were using...

Anyway ya.. harbinger subs... I don't think so.. I would just sell them and get or build some subs...the ones that I provide plans for in the FAQ section really do thump quite nicely, and are small and portable and really aren't much more money than the harbins.. (actually cheaper I think...) but will blow those out of the building..

The problem is just a crappy box and a crappy 3" voice coil driver...very simlar to the Peavey 118 or behringer...

Cool thing is .. build two.. then later build 2 more (4 is impressive, 6 is downright crazy, 8 will start your heart ) and I think I had about $500 into them.. give or take...and the 15" model specs out just as loud and low as the 18" but are about 1/3 smaller than the harbies...and you can build them with a skilsaw and a jigsaw...

G

OklaPony

premier1 wrote:

...Basically I have no front head on my kick, I use an evans retro screen, the mic is on a stand centered on that front head, one good size pillow in the kick, I am far more a "punch guy" than a boom guy! Punch and click is what I like, nice and tight. Now granted im using 18s and maybe 15s are more punchy? back to the xti, I low passed at 35k and high passed at 100. No subsynth etc just using the out eq and have a small 3db boost from 60 to 80 anyway only had the mic a few days so its a process

If you're a "punch and click" kind of guy I don't think you'll get that out of a retro screen. Try a 4" diameter off-center vent hole with an SM57 placed dead center, perpendicular to, and about 1" outside of, the hole. The smaller hole will produce a rush of air into the mic that will let you let you get the click. The SM57 won't produce the sub frequencies anyway and you'll end up with punch (providing, of course, that your definition of punch and my interpretation of your desired bass drum sound are congruous). There's a bazillion ways to go about it but this is one that has worked for me.

Gadget

With vented 3" voice coil "budget" subs no matter what you do your not likely to get anything worth bragging about... no matter WHAT mic you use, or where the hole is.. if any. I get plenty of groups in with drummers with no head, and I get fine results with any number of mics...including my Radio Shack PZM mic...

G

premier1

I am going to take the advice and use it, My band has a gig tonight and after that we finally get a two week break so, I am going to make some changes in the subwoofer dept. I looked into the fane gadget but it will take to long to get those, what would you suggest for a driver that I can get fast and have ready for Dec 9th.

PS, Have a great thanksgiving everyone!

Gadget

Sure.. use the P audio specified in the DIY thread...available from Loudspeakers Plus of Chicago, tell them Gary sent you!
G

Happy thanksgiving to you as well...

JWald

Gadget, can you supply a link to the DIY sub posts. I've looked all over the FAQ and can't find a thing. Thanks.

Dra

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1334

CampbellKaitlin

OklaPony wrote:

premier1 wrote:

...Basically I have no front head on my kick, I use an evans retro screen, the mic is on a stand centered on that front head, one good size pillow in the kick, I am far more a "punch guy" than a boom guy! Punch and click is what I like, nice and tight. Now granted im using 18s and maybe 15s are more punchy? back to the xti, I low passed at 35k and high passed at 100. No subsynth etc just using the out eq and have a small 3db boost from 60 to 80 anyway only had the mic a few days so its a process

If you're a "punch and click" kind of guy I don't think you'll get that out of a retro screen. Try a 4" diameter off-center vent hole with an SM57 placed dead center, perpendicular to, and about 1" outside of, the hole. The smaller hole will produce a rush of air into the mic that will let you let you get the click. The SM57 won't produce the sub frequencies anyway and you'll end up with punch (providing, of course, that your definition of punch and my interpretation of your desired bass drum sound are congruous). There's a bazillion ways to go about it but this is one that has worked for me.

Agree! Just play with a 4" diameter off-center vent hole with an SM57, that's what I usually do when have such kind of mic issues.

Gadget

This thread is 6 YEARS OLD :shock: :shock: :shock: :?

Dennis

Gadget wrote:

This thread is 6 YEARS OLD :shock: :shock: :shock: :?

Last post prior to CampbellKaitlin was 05/01/2012

Dra

I think he meant 6 months. 1st post 11/11

DRA

Gadget

:oops: old...

Th3g3rm4n4t0r

From experience, i have seen myself that an Apex mic kicks Shure and Sennhesiers on different occasions, try using different mics. Especially the Apex one - Its worth a try.