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DR260 EQs/Crossovers/Limiting Requesting Suggestions QSC KW

eighty8eighty8 Posts: 10
I am recently new to using Crossover's and I have been doing alot of reading. Can you guys review this and offer any suggestions on any changes I should make to the EQ's/Crossover/Limiting settings?

Equipment: QSC KW153 (2), QSC 1801 (2), DR260.

Placement: 2 1801 subs in the middle together, the 153's on the side.

Usage: Weddings and Club events (EDM)

Settings I'm thinking of using: 2x6: Output 1&2 Right and Left Highs and Mids, Output 3&4 Right and Left Lows (15's on the KW153's), Output 5&6 for the Low's of the 1801.

I understand that my subs have a frequency responce of 40hz -112 hz and the KW153's are 35Hz - 18 kHz

Choose Custom in Wizard
(Don't know what to choose for the Amps as these have built-in amps?)

Crossover:
HPF in DR to 30hz BW6 for subs
75hz and LR 24 filter types

Set tops to "normal"

Set the subs to "limit" and "normal" polarity

I have the brickwall limiter set to on,auto EQ on, OverEasy is Off.
Threshold set to 8db

Much of my information was gathered here:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2811

Thanks
-eighty8

Comments

  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Looks like that thread had some good sage advise :mrgreen:

    However, unless they re-designed those speakers I can see NO way to send a signal to JUST the woofer, and a separate signal to the MF/HF in that cabinet...That would require a bi-amp switch and a separate input FOR the that operation I didn't see when visiting the QSC website...

    Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how you intend to accomplish this with a fullrange speaker LIKE the KW153?

    and about that 35hz spec on the KW153 ...ya right... :lol::lol:
  • eighty8eighty8 Posts: 10
    Gadget wrote:
    Looks like that thread had some good sage advise :mrgreen:

    However, unless they re-designed those speakers I can see NO way to send a signal to JUST the woofer, and a separate signal to the MF/HF in that cabinet...That would require a bi-amp switch and a separate input FOR the that operation I didn't see when visiting the QSC website...

    Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how you intend to accomplish this with a fullrange speaker LIKE the KW153?

    and about that 35hz spec on the KW153 ...ya right... :lol::lol:
    Yes, I figured the 35hz would not work for the 15's. (I'm guessing this hz was calculated when the towers are put into "Deep" mode).

    I may not be thinking about this correctly, but I am trying to use the 2 inputs on the back of the KW153s basically as a Bi-Amp config.
    I have tested this and it seems to work OK (not perfect). First thing I did was to use Outputs 1&2 from the DR260 into the KW153s Input 1 only to see if any bass leaked out of the low end. Seems no Bass at all, so the crossover must be close. Then I ran outputs 3&4 only from the DR260 for the low end into input 2 on the back of the KW153s. What is interesting is that each input on the back of the KW153s has its own independent level control on the speaker itself. You can also use both inputs at once and at different levels. I don't think it was intended to be run this way, but it seems to be yielding some kind of positive results.

    According to the manual the Amps are: " 1000 W Class D (500 W LF, 500 W MF/HF) continuous"

    What do you think? I'm just trying to think outside the box on this one. It is my understanding that both inputs on the KW are full range. I am trying to split them up so that input 1 is Mids/Highs (500W) and input 2 is lows (500W). I guess the only real advantage of splitting them up is that I have more control over limiting the highs&mids separately from the lows.

    Attached is a picture of the 2 inputs that was pulled from the QSC user manual.
    amp.jpg
    Thanks
    -eighty8
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    What do you think? I'm just trying to think outside the box on this one.

    I am hoping here that you have a sense of humor.... that said...

    emoticons.gif

    Ok, first off, if you were to set the outputs 1 and 2 to put OUT FULLRANGE and BASS with it... you would have heard... fullrange and bass...

    READ MY LIPS.046.gif no way 88...not gonna happen, nope36_2_44anabsoluteno.gif

    forget that, you have 2x3 or 2x4 to work with... sorry.

    Look, if you were to set the 1/2 outputs to ONLY put out what the mid/highs put out (I'm thinkin 400-500hz) and sent them through input 1, then set the 3/4 outputs to put out 75hz-400/500hz ... and sent them to the #2 input... you would TECHNICALLY be doing only the highs to the mid'his and only the lows to the woofer but it ALL is still run through the same inputs, the same processors and all you would be doing is utilizing the band pass filters IN the amps section... but whatever floats your boat...but lets be clear, it isn't running bi-amp...

    Oh and while were at it, why worry about setting limiters and the like when the speakers handle that without the ability to defeat them?

    just sayin...

    gadget ..resident curmudgeon...
  • DraDra Posts: 3,844
    All that and....

    by inputting the hi's into the "A" input and the mid's into the "B" input, you are not inputting into the 2 amps of the speaker individually. You are just adding a volume pot for each input before the x-over sends the signal to the appropriate amp. By doing this you are possibly, probably, likely, definately degrading the sound quality. You are basically using the inputs as "tone" controls. Let the 260 be the tone conttrol. That is what it is... and does best.
    I understand the logic, good thinking outside the box by the way, but not a good idea.
    I once had an idea to eliminate the need for parking (emergency) brakes when parking on an incline to keep the car from rolling. Square wheels. I made the prototypes and they worked for their purpose great. I show them to Gadget and he said, "Let's take a ride.". Ended up not being usable for the real purpose of the car... getting from one place to another in relative comfort.

    DRA
  • Aye easy on my buddy there! lol now I understand the txt yesterday about getting torn apart on the forums n asking if I could help explain some. Ya my thought was the same really? They work like that? When he was telling me about it this weekend. Without knowing and lack of getting on the internet and searching during the event I was running I couldn't say otherwise. I'm not very well versed on powered speakers as the only ones I like are Meyers and I can't afford them. J/K That does seem a bit extraneous of them to work the panel that way. Why do they feel the need for a mic/line input with sensitivity gain to allow for adjustment for either a mic or line and also have a just line in? So you can also plug a mic in directly while also running sound through the line in? Seems a bit overdone... Ya with subs together in the center or even in stereo you'll want to run it 2x3 left right main, mono sub and use the crossover accordingly to LPF and HPF the channels.

    Dave and I and the company I work side by side with sometimes run into the situation where sometimes we leave a system un-attended and in the hands of those all knowing DJs whom insist the master output can and should go into the red for max bass! That is why those lights turn red correct? lol ok ya it's not usually that bad but I've seen it and tried to explain why not and gotten that deer in the headlights look or even worse "why not". Ok so anyway this is what I was asking about the other day with using the limiters but got the answer from the guy that first showed me anyway. He sets his the same way Dave said earlier. Overeasy off, pk stop on, overshoot 2db, and auto on then set the threshold so his speakers won't go into clip or more so I've seen him set it so only 3 green lights on his K6 light up and not allow the subs get loud like they can. He mentioned setting the attack to the fastest setting and release to 300 db/s and I forget his hold setting. So this makes me wonder if he does have auto on or just got confused when he told me cause it defeats those settings and he would know better. I believe he had a part in the design of the Soundbridge ION sub cabinets and I've seen him out with prototypes of boxes he was working on and trying out. Anyway he uses 4 of these same QSC's for mains with these subs and runs the limiters through the driverack the same way to them also. This way you can completely max out the master out on the DJ mixer and have your amps not go past a point or just not clip what have you... Yes it sounds like crap but far as I've been able to tell the crap is only because of the clipped signal coming into the system and not because of his limiter settings. I'm real curious to see what you guys think of this. I've been a bit baffled by limiter settings myself and can't tell if their affecting the sound cause I don't have enough copper to get out there in front of my systems while playing and besides that I barely have time to come up with EQ settings in the short time I get from setup to going live. I don't have a place I can setup and "play" around it's just to loud.

    Time for a beer -Mark
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Well Mark, I'm having a cocktail as well.(NOT a beer drinker)

    Hey I told him I wasn't bashing him... or his equipment.. We don't TEAR anyone apart here....I see to that personally...

    But hey, most ALL powered speakers provide a mic and line inputs for the purpose of an INPUT mixer.. Some have 3 or more inputs that can all be used at once! Think of it as a small mixer, amp, and speaker with 2 amps and crossover all rolled into one.

    YOU HAVE NO ACCESS TO THE CROSSOVER...you MUST go through the mixer to get to the crossover... as I said in my above reply, you can simulate all you want but you STILL need to go through the bottleneck of the mixer, you are only kidding yourself that that is anywhere NEAR bi-amping.

    As for the limiter scheme you postulate, I cannot tell you if it will work or not... simply because I do not have that equipment to work with. BUT, know this, IF you use a compression limiting scheme to limit the input to the amps.. you risk increasing the AVERAGE power output of the amps. Most music is reproduced and the amps ONLY run a duty cycle of 1/5th to 1/3 duty cycle, that means the amps are EVEN AT THE HIGHEST VOLUME running 1/5th to 1/3 of the time/average cycle...IF YOU INCREASE THAT, the power supply will start to sag, the voice coils will start to heat, and disaster is only possibly a bass hit away...

    If your doing pre recorded music the sound is ALREADY HEAVILY COMPRESSED, and so your BEST defense here is to limit the power available to the speakers to something that will NOT cook the voice coils (read this DON"T exceed the RMS rating of the speakers...but that's NOT going to please most DJ's.

    I'm a DJ/KJ Livesound professional and I can tell you from experience...what I'm saying is a proven fact! Do what you want, but mark my words...you exceed the duty cycle of the amps, your headed for an expensive lesson...

    Gadget
  • Ok I'm pretty sure I already knew that about the duty cycle I just thought of it in a different way and without that term. Like I said where he runs his K6 and leaves it he only lets it up into the second or third light. I asked him why he wouldn't let it get up there like I've seen him run it when he or someone stays and runs the sound. I almost bit my tounge as I was saying it as I realized the reason was probably cause of the duty cycle tho I didn't think of it in that term. The way I thought of it was like this. If you send your amps that maxed out clipped signal that contains distortion and sounds like your speakers are clipping when really neither them or the amps are and it's in the signal this distortion will cause excessive heat in your voice coils and destroy them leaving you wondering why because you thought since your amps weren't clipping you were in the safe on power. Given of course your amps watts are matched to your speakers and not exceding. Does that sound like it makes sense without technical terms?

    No worries on the bashing I was only kidding and we both were laughing about it earlier. I also warned him that for as long as I've been reading up on audio (about 15yrs) that there almost never seems to be a clean cut concrete answer to anything. So hopefully this talk won't cause him to become a recluse or anything. But hey this is audio were talking about and audio is a liquid state so of course theres nothing concrete to be said.....
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    and it's in the signal this distortion will cause excessive heat in your voice coils and destroy them leaving you wondering why because you thought since your amps weren't clipping you were in the safe on power.

    No...sorry, if that were true then a distorted guitar sound would do the same thing...right? If however, the distortion comes from the signal CLIPPING THE AMP, then yes, but that isn't what would make that happen. This is about the voltage/current that will damage the voicecoil... the RMS rating is all frequency distortion(Pink noise) with a known crest factor...that rating says that the speaker can withstand the voltage/current...wattage, all frequencies 24 hours a day 7 days a week...

    Do you see what I,m saying? If that's 75 volts @8 ohms...it will take that for an indefinite period without failing...
    But hey this is audio were talking about and audio is a liquid state so of course theres nothing concrete to be said.....
    :mrgreen: Too true, the problem is, in this business, the more you learn the less you obviously know... and the answer is... "It depends"... in almost EVERY case. :mrgreen:

    Tell him that we also believe with this level of technology that a certain responsibility follows. We try and make you think, we try and make you strive for the answers, do the homework. If I give you then answers you will be able to eat for a day. If however, you learn the lessons, you will be able to feed yourself for a lifetime...

    :roll: boy that sounds corny :roll:

    Anyway, the point is, there is a lot to this, and if I wrote a book for every post I wouldn't get time wipe my ass, and you would get bored and not read our ramblings.... to the end for the answers.

    So we provided the information, and you can read, and learn and ask questions...If were biased... we say so...but we try to supply only verified, and useful information.
    Gadget... audio thespian...
  • eighty8eighty8 Posts: 10
    I appreciate your guy's humour and help. I have to say my tonsils were ectomied when I started reading these responces :lol: . Couldn't stop lauging. It seems like everyday that I come on these forums and read I'm lightyears away from what I knew the day before.

    -eighty8
  • Ok so without doing all the math and research to see where i've been running my equiptment at power wise i'm gonna explain how I've been doing things and see what you say cause even if I do all that I'm still going to be wondering if I'm right. Plus I don't have a multimeter to check myself. I've been trying to find someone to come look at my setup and check how I'm doing things but I don't have a place I can run unless I'm at a venue and my time there is very limited. Ok so for my example I'll use the Digam 5000 you suggested to me and my 4 LA400's with EAW's 500w rating. You should be most familiar with these for this example's need's.

    I have the DJ's setup and send me a main out signal that is +6 (+7 Pioneer) from their mixer. I set the input channels gain PFL on my sound board (A&H Zed14) so their bouncing into +6. I set the input channel faders to 0 then bring the masters up till I'm at +6 on my main out. So everywhere is ideally +6. Without limiters in place I run the lights on my Digam so that +6 coming out of my board is the second yellow light and a bump into +9 would be red light clip on my amp. I've been trying to get my limiters set so that they stop the amp from getting into clip but are letting the second yellow light come through and are not making any noticeable difference in the sound. In either case I stay ontop of the DJs and make sure they watch their levels. I hope those are safe levels as that's how I've been doing it for some time...

    If that's all well then I believe where limiters get you into trouble is if they were set so that you were feeding a constant +9 and above signal into your system and still only getting into the second yellow light on the amp but now that light is solid then your obviously putting out more than that meter light would have you precieve.

    If those aren't acceptable levels then yes the DJs will never be happy and neither will I frankly...

    I'll leave it at that and see where that gets me. I'm tired of forming my thoughts into words for the moment.
  • DraDra Posts: 3,844
    Consider this.

    Assume that the DJ will not want a distorted output (audible).

    Have him send you an ouptut into a channel..... (final gain setting at this point are not needed) PFL with headphones (and no amps on) that channel and have the DJ turn up his output (and channel gains if needed) until YOU hear distortion from HIS system. Use that level to set your gain structure and limiter scheme.

    I am pretty sure that if you set the scheme to (his) +6, nothing will keep him from "needing a little more" and pushing to +12.

    Hopefully, he at least wants to sound good and would back off if he starts to distort.

    On the other hand... all the DJs you work with may have self control and will only output the predetermined and aggreed upon ouput LED segment, because they value you gear more than their own. :roll: :mrgreen:

    DRA
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