DRPA+ with RCF Art312A/705AS
Micco
Posts: 7
Hi!
I just got the DRPA+ and going on a gig with it on saturday.
My system is 01v96VCM, DRPA+, 2+Art312A, 2x705AS.
On the speaker preset list I can find 312A but not my subs 705AS.
Instead I can find DB Technologies Sub 15 which as I've understand is pretty similar speaker.
So would it be OK to choose that DB as my sub speakers or should I do some kind of custom configuration?
An other question:
How do I set up the output limiters when using active cabinets? I can't disconnect the speakers from amps to determine when the amps starts to clip. And I can't see my self making all that noise doing this operation having the speakers yelling like crazy. Any trick on this matter?
One more:
There has been talk about doing the auto eq by having speaker on the floor and the rta-mic quite near the speaker. And after measurements transfering corrections from GEQ to PEQ:s. But when choosing speakers in setup wizard are this kind of speaker vice corrections automatically aplied to PEQ:s and after that I just use the auto eq trying to to make room vice corrections?
All help apreciated, I'm a little bit lost with this thing at the moment. Hopely it will eventually help me on getting better sound from my system which previously were driven directly from the mixer.
I just got the DRPA+ and going on a gig with it on saturday.
My system is 01v96VCM, DRPA+, 2+Art312A, 2x705AS.
On the speaker preset list I can find 312A but not my subs 705AS.
Instead I can find DB Technologies Sub 15 which as I've understand is pretty similar speaker.
So would it be OK to choose that DB as my sub speakers or should I do some kind of custom configuration?
An other question:
How do I set up the output limiters when using active cabinets? I can't disconnect the speakers from amps to determine when the amps starts to clip. And I can't see my self making all that noise doing this operation having the speakers yelling like crazy. Any trick on this matter?
One more:
There has been talk about doing the auto eq by having speaker on the floor and the rta-mic quite near the speaker. And after measurements transfering corrections from GEQ to PEQ:s. But when choosing speakers in setup wizard are this kind of speaker vice corrections automatically aplied to PEQ:s and after that I just use the auto eq trying to to make room vice corrections?
All help apreciated, I'm a little bit lost with this thing at the moment. Hopely it will eventually help me on getting better sound from my system which previously were driven directly from the mixer.
0
Comments
You can either select the subs you spoke of or make a custom preset, adjust the filter slope by the size of the mid, and power available for it. With a 12" I like to start at about 100-118hz BW24, the subs determine the HPF type and slope, but powered subs are best left to limit and HPF themselves. Make sure to select a crossover point BELOW the subs built in HPF...
Set the system up for as flat and balanced as possible. Of late we have been trying to update the process with the DRPA... the floor method has a couple of drawbacks. SO, place the top on a pole, away from any boundary (freespace measurement position) move the RTA mic out 20-25 feet (preferable) placed on the ground on a towel or other soft surface ( much bigger than the mic ) make sure the sound is at your projected volume level, (IF, you can't get that loud, and you CAN move the speaker back, do so... the farther the speaker is away the louder you will be able to get it before the DRPA+ says to "TURN DOWN" !
Save that as a preset (make sure to do it "flat response" and you can use medium or high precision... it never takes too long..) label as ART FLT 1 or something you can remember... Take another 15-30dgerees off axis, and save that as ART FLT 3 ...(indicating flat on axis or flat off axis preset) or whatever... compare these and lets say you have 2K @ - 3dB on axis and -3dB off, listen as you adjust towards -0- dB and see if that isn't a good compromise...(just an example)
You can't tune a room, but you can tailor the room sound with EQ... but that's going to be another story...Try and use the above method. and just see what happens, you can use the PEQ's (which won't be set automatically) for this purpose as well...
Gotta go, more later..
Gadget
So going through the configuration wizard and selecting speakers doesn't it give any settings to PEQ:s? Instead it only sets the crossover point and crossover types. So as the speaker list is been configured at the factory they haven't done any measurements to set up somekind of correction EQ:s for different speakers to come with the DRPA+. In other words is crossovers the only thing that gets set up when you select a speaker from the list?
And for this reason to get a good starting point with eq you have to measure your speakers by your self and use that as a base preset for eq by using PEQ:s. And after that in various venues you just tune the GEQ by the place. That would be nice to be able to be done with auto eq but is it possible at all then?
So if I select the subs and tops from the list (even as the subs ain't exactly the same model) the crossovers become set correctly? I just select the highest possible lo-pass from the sub itself (120hz) and hopely the DRPA+'s lo-pass will be under that. And did I get you right I should let the powered sub to take care of limiting and it's hi-pass? So if the DRPA+ gives some hi-pass value for sub I take it off. How about the limiting for top's witch are powered aswell?
And any help on using auto-eq while giging on various places would be appreciated. My goal with this thing is to get better sound than before and faster and easier. Before we tried to use Iphone apps RTA and our ears to figure out why it sounds thin, boomy, honky, what ever and then adjusting master 4 channel PEQ on 01v96vcm. I know basic things about speaker placement and boundaries so I don't think that is the issue.
Yes crossover point and gain are all that are provided if the amps are in the menu and chosen as well, NO to any EQ/PEQ... If a manufacturer was to offer these equalization's it would be like admitting that their speakers are somehow flawed, and that if other speakers don't NEED them 'why do YOUR speakers need them" Ain't gonna happen...
I have found that if you use the measurement mic, and the techniques here to flatten the system, you can take the system to most ANY venue and it WILL sound better, have better gain before feedback...and be able to have the ability to more easily translate your live sound to recordings...If you choose the flat preset when you arrive in a new space you can also take measurements and see what the room is doing to your system sound...you can then use placement, aiming and as a last resort,.. equalization...
As far as the PEQ's go... the DRPA and PX don't really have enough to be very useful other than for room issues anyway, and I have suggestions for that as well...
No, not in my experience.. it sets what you will come to find is a "starting" point... I look at the power available, size of the midrange, and determine a crossover point... I think that now they are using a spreadsheet/formula for coming up with a crossover point and slope...Just remember that the lower you cross the tops the less clarity you will have as the driver deals with low frequencies...
Again, No thats not how it works... you need to select a frequency LOWER that of the sub ... so If your subs have a HIGHEST point (lowpass) of 100 hz I would suggest 100hz, or as close to that as possible...
Yes!
Ya, that's what I would do...
Yamaha mixers are kind of sterile sounding...The RCF speakers should be pretty good, but the subs are not likely to keep up with the tops...I suggest following the techniques listed here for auto EQ and setup, flatten the system and store the preset. Then listen to the system, and with a mic check the gain before feedback.
Here is where the PEQ's come in handy, or for room correction... I like 60hz area,350hz with a broad Q and 3K5 for clarity
G
this is clarifyin alot already.
I still keep on bothering.
My subs have their own chooseable crossover (80,100 and 120hz). So is it the best choise to put it on 120hz so that it won't be kicking in together with DRPA+'s crossover? DRPA+ can then have crossover point any where under that and DRPA+ will do all the hi- and lo-passing.
I don't know I'm getting a little scared with this not sure if I have guts to use it on satur day since we don't have much time to do the sound check. Also the place is quite reverberant so it might be wrong place to do those measurements for flat response.
Any way one thing more about measuring:
Do I set up the whole system with two subs on the middle and tops up on the poles on both sides of the stage and then mic on the floor with towel (distance 20-25feet about 6-7.5 meters in center axis of both speakers)? Or do I just measure one speaker with out subs? And what did you mean by doing an other measurement off axis? Is it placing the mic off from the center line off two speakers or from direct pointing direction of one speaker (if the right way is to measure just one speaker)?
Set one speaker on a stick... indoors the subs will cause standing waves so use only one sub.. turn it down 3-6dB and go strait out from one top speaker... (make sure speakers are near NO boundary) afterwords turn both subs back on and turn back up and EQ subs by ear.
For this to work it needs to be Stereo, and linked stereo... using the wizard...otherwise if you do stereo, dual mono you will only do the left side first, then, the display will say... "not done" and want to do the right side...
One other thing can cause a "Not done" message.. 4 or more bands fully cut or boosted during the Auto Eq sequence...
I defenetely need more time to play with it.
What I did now was I only did the configuration wizard selecting art312a as tops and db sub15 as bottoms. Then I run the
auto level and auto eq.
I was pretty happy with the sound but I feel that it defenetely needs some fine tuning by ear. High end was a little too tight and bottom could have been stonger. Allthough I think I forgot to pull down the sub a few db:s as I did the auto-eq, then back up. That might help on this. Also I guess I need to configure the peq:s instead of leaving the geq as a preset after auto-eq.
But I felt that after auto-eq I wasn't struggling with major problems anymore considering the sound.
One thing I'm wondering is the levels. Auto leveling asked me to put the gains on speaker quite low. Tops a little bit under 12 o'clock and subs under 9 o'clock. I did have to push the master on mixer almost all the way up to get the volume that was needed. And it wasn't because of finding the balance between tops and bottoms. When selecting the speakers it gave about these values for gains rightaway. Can I just put the gains more up and then just fine adjust them as the auto-level asks to gain or reduce top or sub?
I used to have mixer on a very compact case and was wondering how to be able to keep the case as small as possible after installing the DRPA+ with the mixer.
I found just a few inches longer an wider box witch I modified a little to come out with quite compact solution:
http://muusikoiden.net/dyn/users/95910.jpg
If your auto eq'ing indoors standing waves will knock the bass level down quite a bit...
You can do that but for me, there aren't enough PEQ's for the job so I leave the GEQ in place and use the PEQ's for room modes...
Yes there is no problem with this...
I'll try lifting the speaker gains to higher levels and then do the auto level again.
What you think is standing waves also effecting auto-level procedure and possibly causing subs to get too low gain?
Doing the auto-eq method as you described (just other side of pa, mic on the floor having blanket under it, sub gain reduced) how would you describe this sub gain reduction is helping the procedure? Is it compensating standing waves or just taking the sub sort of away as we are actually measuring mainly the top speaker?
Gadget
Shoot me down if I'm doing all wrong here now.
My last move was that I did the system setup with auto-eq out doors.
Got the best result for my ear using "My Band"-target curve for auto eq.
I tried to move the biggest corrections from GEQ to PEQ so that the auto-eq done after that didn't have to do that many corrections any more.
I'm now planning to leave these setting as they are and try to correct modes and other problems in varoius venues with my mixing consoles (01v96vcm) master eq (4xPEQ).
How does this sound as a method to be used?
Another thing. With auto-eq (outdoors/indoors) aswell as with ear I seem to notice that it is necessary to drop the frequency area where the X-over is set between tops and subs. I've been having same experiences with subs own X-overs (RCF 705as, X-over 100hz) aswell as with the DRPA+. DRPA+ with presets for my speakers seem to give also 100hz for both low pass and high pass.
So I was wondering would it be a good idea to have lower lowpass frequency than highpass to form a little drop to x-over point? Or actually making it more even if it's now little bit lifted with same frequency for low pass and high pass.
Yes anytime you can avoid using a GEQ to resolve a frequency problem... do it. You are dead on in your proposal.
DRA