Should I keep the DR260

NoizyNeighborz

I am selling off my old PA system which consisted of the following:
Peavey TLS 5 - 300watts - Power by Peavey PV2600
JBL JRX118s - Powered by Peavey CS3000
Behringer F1220 monitors - Powered by Peavey PV900

I ran this system in stereo, but even near clipping it never had much power and it always sounded muddy. Tuning with the DriveRack 260 didn't make it much better. Not the 260's fault, more my lack of understanding and poor PA selection. Only ran in stereo to give a little seperation to the guitars and for a few stereo effects, maybe this was not a good idea?? :roll: (In case you are wondering I attempted the speaker flattening, did the gain structure and got my crossover settings from Gadget I think... thank you for all the help.)

anyway...
Looking for something lighter (those poweramps weigh a ton) with clearer sound and enough power to handle a school gym (largest venu... most are smaller halls). Just wonderng if the powered JBL PRX and QSC K systems would do the trick? If so would 1 top and 1 sub per side be enough?

I am not up on the speaker and power amp ratings and match ups, and really don't want to be, so I figure if I go powered I can't get it wrong. I'm a guitar player not a sound engineer.

If I go to a matched set of tops and subs do I really need to keep my drive rack 260? My StudioLive24 mixer has a limiter and GEQ and the speakers have their own cross overs. Plus I can't run the drive rack gui on my Mac... easily.

I don't have the ability to listen to any of the systems where I live, so I have to depend on you folks for honest reviews before I order online.

Thanks everyone
Wally

Gadget

Hi, Nice to see that you have the SL24! Those are AMAZING boards! I have the SL16 and I just implemented the Iphone Qmix app.. and I can control FOH AND montitors remotely! If you have an I pod, I pad, or I phone you should really check these things out! Imagine each band member being able to control their own monitor mix from your phone!

Now, I know you'll understand when I say "You can't polish a turd" but hey... those subs are pathetic, and those tops aren't any better...that said, IF, you want to have something that is still only~ marginally good , then get a powered system with powered subs....Don't get me wrong, the Qsc K and KW series speakers are decent, and the JBL PRX series, and Peavey Impulse 12, and Yamaha ... yada yada.. powered tops are~ok...all pretty much the same... good but not great.

What makes a great speaker? Well, you need a 1.4"- 2" exit horn and a woofer with at least a 3" voice coil (translates into tighter, better control of the sound)... these things your not going to find in a powered speaker...At least not a mid grade powered speaker... The powered subs are REALLY not good in the mid grade... you have to step up a little to the Subs in the Yorkville or in JBL the VRX powered subs to get something that's worthy (again in my opinion).

I believe in the "Buy once Cry once" axiom, especially since you already have the BOMB mixer... If you want to REALLY get the most out of your system, I'd look at D.A.S RF1264/1294 (60 degree or 90 degree horizontal pattern.) They are a true 2" exit horn, 4'" voice coil woofer speaker, that sell for under $800...Yes, you need power, and a good bit of it to do them justice, but the Peavey IPR series amps weigh in about 6 1/2 lbs per amp and so weight isn't a real problem. At 5000 watts and around $500... pretty hard to beat.

Note here that the Peavey impulse 12 tops have a ribbon tweeter that would work VERY well in reverberant spaces and with 1200 watts... the key is NO horn to focus the sound so that it doesn't bounce around as much (high frequencies), but lets be clear here...the Impulse will not TOUCH the RF1264's ...in any way... but they will be a bit lighter, and a bit cheaper in the long run.

As for the subs, that is where the men and the boys are separated...POWER and voice coil size rule here...Usually size of box is also a determining factor...and weight follows naturally. As far as I know the smallest, lightest high output sub is the Danley Sound TH mini... at 76 lbs and 24X15X22.5"... pretty small. The BANG for the buck has to go to the Peavey SP118... heavy, but potent. If your good with wood working you can build your own 15" subs (like I have, and a few others here) and have a kick ass small, light little ass kicker, and save a few bucks as well...(smaller, lighter, cheaper...)

Couple that with a Peavey IPR 7500...and you'd have quite a potent package...so the amps weigh in at a whopping 12.4 lbs total (can your back handle that?)

The Driverack will only make all this that much better... the system (less amps) is what Dr. J uses... and it's KILLER (and he can provide you with tunings for biamping if you wish later on...

Well, you asked...and that's my story...
Gadget

NoizyNeighborz

Hey Gadget,
I was hoping you would reply. You have helped me out before and I have been seeing you around the Presonus site. By the way, I posted this on that site so don't answer me again I have tried the SL24 with my band, but never had a good laptop until recently. Got all the toys then the band broke up Gearing up for the next one

I'm not a sound engineer, just the guitar player mixing from the stage. So excuse these silly questions.

The wattage and SPL of the DAS speakers does not seem any different than the powered systems I was looking at. In fact their rated power of 600watts is less than the advertised 1000watts of the powered systems. Can you clue me in using laymens terms?

Would I need a seperate IPR power amp for each cabinet? bridge connected? I would still like to run in stereo.

How many tops/subs should I have for a typical school gym?

Any chance you could give me a typical system list so I can check some reviews, prices and availabilty in Canada?
example:
2 tops brand and type (I think I know this one)
2 subs brand and type
x IPR power amps and type/rating for the tops
x IPR power amps and type/rating for the subs

I don't mid spending extra money for better sound as long as it don't break my back.
Thanks again
Wally

Gadget

Hey Wally... one thing you can count on like death and taxes is.. I'll be around... somewhere...

Here's the deal, Powered speakers (for the most part) are rated in PEAK POWER watts...So what does THAT mean you ask :roll: well, the "AVERAGE power of a K12 is 500 watts for the woofer and 500 watts for the Hf and is rated as 2000 watts peak...so really, there is only 500 watts available at any one time, but there is a PEAK value of INSTANTANEOUS (for a millisecond or so) of 1000 watts for the woofer.. this is all fine and dandy but it's also a sales gimmick... there is really only 500 watts available continuous... but they are rated as having 2000 watts! :shock: :shock: :shock: (I'm not even getting into why they say 500 watts for a 1" exit 1.75" diaphragm horn driver that cannot handle much over 50 watts... :roll: )

That D.A.S. speaker is rated 600 watts RMS... that is to say, you could apply 600 watts of pink noise to that speaker and it would take it 24 hours a day 7 days a week...for ever...(well... ) the thing is, that same speaker can do 1200 watts program (like live rock and roll) power of 1200 watts, and peaks of 2400 watts...If we were to bi-amp that speaker the woofer is rated at 2400 watts and the horn (driver) is rated @ 250 watts...but that's another story since those are not set up to bi-amp... but it can be done!

Those speakers are REAL speakers, made of wood (any speaker make of plastic (like the K12... will NOT sound as good as a KW12 (and will cost a lot less) but the sound is not the same, or as good...

Now lets talk power...The IPR amps are GOOD sounding and are among the lightest amps available.... but are (for the most part) NOT bi-ampable...why is that important you ask? because those speakers are rated as 8 ohms, and 2400 watts @ 8 ohms is a WHOPPING big amp! So, let me ask you this, which amp out there will do 2500 watts per channel @ 8 ohms??? :?: (it's a trick question ) NONE of them!!! They're getting close, but even the Crown Macrotech I series 12,000 will only put out 2100 watts @ 8 ohms and even THAT is a "ain't gonna happen in the real world" kind of a deal... but that's another story....

So how DO we in the real world get the kind of power to run the new big power subs? Bridged amps...feeding the output of one amp channel into the input of the other. This is at the cost of DOUBLING the current draw of the amp in stereo operation. It's not unusual to see these big amps drawing as much current (or more) than your stove!

So, what are you saying Gary? Well, are the powered speakers with all their hype going to be able to compete with an appropriately powered D.A.S. Rf 12_ _ series or SRX 700 series or QSC's pro level speakers (but the later are more then twice the price of the RF1264/94 series :!: )

Subs? well, as I said, bang for the buck goes to the Peavey, Sp118, Sp218 subs... the cheapest commercial subs out there, but they are BIG and Heavy... The DIY subs in the FAQ section I provided are smaller, lighter and will kick the Peavey's asses, but they are DIY...

As for power I would use the IPR7000 in stereo for the tops, and probably a couple of bridged 2400-4000 watt amps for the subs, if you really want to up the anti, see if you can get some Powersoft amps, or Crown Itech, or Qsc powerlite series amps... but the cost is high, but the benefits are many...

I haven't seen a powered sub yet that can touch one of the DIY subs I spoke of above, but it's a power thing, and the powered subs DON'T have it...

Gadget

NoizyNeighborz

I guess its been said before, but I wish the speaker ratings were the same across the board :roll:

Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. I just assumed a higher watt rating meant more available power (louder) :oops:

I'm going to do a little searching for the availability of DAS speakers in Canada.
The power amps are available and I expect I could get the Peavy Subs as well.
I have a few carpenters in the family so, I'll check the DIY subs as well

Hopefully I'll be back (after my tax refund) for some tunings for the DriveRack 260.
Just wondering why the 12" DAS speakers and not the 15"?
Thanks again Gary
Wally

Gadget

they sound better...