Monitors, monitor mixers, DRPA, and EQs

James85

Hello all.
I usually run two monitor mixes from FOH. Three mons up front and one for the drummer. I run each mix through a DRPA. I have run into events where it would be nice to have four mixes..for the better bands who know what to ask for. I am considering running four mixes through two DRPAs. So here is the question. There is a theory that the auto feedback suppression is not that smart and routinely cuts out frequencies that are not feedback thus hurting the mix. A lifelong prosound guy (He is legitimately a pro and successful businessman in the industry) suggested I go with separate GEQs for the monitors, bypassing the AFS system. He does use, sell, install DBX products so it is not a brand-hater issue. What has been your experience with the AFS? I would think a music High setting with the least number of fixed filters and fast clearing live filters are the best I could do. The DBX 1231 seems to be respected as an outboard EQ.

Second issue. IF one has a monitor desk..something analog like a Soundcraft Spirit or MixWiz M, I suppose you still require an GEQ for each mix..to control feedback?

Third. I am a stupid gear nut so the idea of a monitor desk is thrilling. I can do everything I need from A&H GL2400 now so it would be stupid to get another desk especially since I don't have a guy to run it :roll: But if I did get one...do you generally like desks that have the built-in splitter or do you use the snake splitter? I can get used desks (16 ch) fairly cheaply but I would then have to buy the splitter. Thinking a MixWiz is a better option.

Thanks-Jim

Gadget

I have generally, for the last 15 years, run split out monitor console and passive split. I didn't have anyone either, but in a busy club it's too hard to get too and from the stage to figure out whats going on, so I leave the console on stage and mix monitors form there and then go back to the front of house when things are set. That is until the last year or so...but well get into that in a minute

I have always used Driveracks, 260's and DRPA's and even PX's on my monitors, even the passive ones, and it has made a MAJOR improvement in my monitors. I generally don't find, after setting up the monitors flat, that I have a lot of issues with feedback to need the FBX in the driverck, but it's on, and there and not even sure if it's doing anything, or even NEEDS to.

Know this, the EQ in the Driverack is a H E L L of a lot better sounding than the 1200 series. and with PEQ's there is NO comparison to GEQ mixes. Thats what makes the 260 such a great piece, bands of PEQ on the inputs and 4 more bands on each output!

In the FAQ section I told of how I got my monitors to 121.7dB with a DR260, and I could hold the mic (SM58) aimed into the heart of the horn, and not even a hint of squeal. So it can be done, and without butchering the sound!

What I do now, is...use a Presonus Studio Live console. I use a DR260 for the FOH tuning/setup and a DRPA and DR240 for 4 monitor mixes (bi-amp). I mix remotely using an Ipad tablet, and I can mix monitors standing on stage next to the artists, and have additional 31 band GEQ's and the fat channel (4 band semi-parametric Eq's HPF, gates, compressors Limiters) for each mix (over and above the DR's). Further more, any person in the band that has an Iphone, Ipad or Ipod touch, can control their own mix! Life is GOOD! I will not mix analog again if I can help it. There is NO comparison!

James85

Well that is helpful info. I never had much feedback with my DRPA for monitors either but I wondered how it sounded up there. Nobody complains about the quality-they just almost always want it louder. Louder than FOH sometimes. Haha. So good. I don't need more rack gear. I did not really think so based on my amateur experience. I gotta get that 260 in the rack.

I have a Presonus 16 channel that I have only used a couple of times. I need to force myself to get used to it. The newer manual was helpful. It is really cool even if it does not have motorized faders.

Oh..and since I have your ear. Now don't lie to me now. I've been doing live sound for fun, charity, and even some money for about six years now. I read text books, read forums, and try the concepts out. I still have not memorized the important instrument fundamentals for EQing, mic response curves, etc. I just consistently apply common sense techniques to my system. At every event I do, the bands and their close friend/fans tell me that they sounded really great, better than a lot of other actual clubs, etc. At first they were just saying that to be nice. But then I got to thinking..these guys play all over..some tour world-wide. I'm a 50 year old bald..er..smooth top guy and these musicians are no more than thirty and would not usually be wanting to hang out and hug the sound guy. But they do. So no BS now. Is it really that bad out there so that a weekend guy can make that much of a difference?

Gadget

It's getting better!

No really, it is. There was a time I couldn't go to ANY concert, or show, because it sucked so bad...I remember Bob Dylan and , at the Excel Energy canter in MPLS/St. Paul... awesome L acoustics system, Sounded like crap, and I wandered the place looking for ANY refuge. I contract engineer for a company that does shows all the time. Generally the acts bring their own consoles, and BE's, Winona was the WORST! Her voice was brittle and harsh, the band was non existent in the mix, except for solo instrument, Kansas and BOC, Kansas sounded like ass, BOC was great, same day same system... Oak ridge boys GREAT, Gary Allen, CRAP, About 70% of the groups right now sound like ass...usually the same console (Avid Venue) always the same racks and stacks...always the same system tech...

They can only do so much (techs), the system is always tuned the same using the same processor (Ev Xline arrays, over Acoustic subs, crown amps, XTA processing (BTW dbx monitor processing ) The only difference is system, and monitor techs. I can't speak for the monitors because they generally bring their own monitor rigs and ME's...when they use our guy they generally make his life a LIVING HELL. Our monitors are Renkus and Heinz and get bloody loud.

So ya, it's better, because before, 100% of the shows I saw were crap... I came up in a market where the sound was SO BAD, that when I started doing GOOD sound it was SO different that I had a HELL of a time... I ran sound for a few high profile groups out of the Twin Cities and was a Radio station engineer (public radio). Those groups would specify me whenever they played in the area, Soon the bar owners were after me to do all the groups, and so I got house gigs, and had my own sound company. Local musicians were the pits, and they fought against me tooth and nail till gradually the sound guys for these groups started asking questions.. like "How do you get that loud without feedback?", and "How the HELL do you get that AWESOME low end?"

It's all about system setup and tuning, Flat frequency response, gain structure, and understanding and implementing the concepts of frequency management. All together too many sound persons don't LISTEN, or have no idea what they are listing to or how to structure the sound around the vocals.

You HAVE the PRESONUS! and your NOT using it? Holly cow man the console is AWESOME! Did you know that the next update 1.6.0 will implement SMAART processing into the console. That means that you have a live spectrograph with you EQ laid over it! How sweet will it be to be able to see hotspots and be able to grab a fader right over a problem frequency! Not to mention there is no longer any need to HAVE a monitor console since we can stand right on stage, or let them control their own mix form up to 10 Iphones!

Don't let that guy tell you how to do what you do best, LEARN learn and learn, experiment, work with the system, use the tools you have ... they WORK! I have done thousands of bands and shows using the driverack platform, I believe in it, and I think that those that don't are among the ranks of the uninformed, or those that think they know everything. I'm not saying that you need to follow the dbx party line either, heaven knows we have our own ideas here, and we feel that if you follow the dbx edicts you will end up with crap in a lot of cases.

Well that's what I think!
Gadget