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System Arrangement & Testing
Evolution
Posts: 14
Hi All,
Firstly thanks to all concerned for the information posted here. I have been on this site for hours and hours trying to get the information to set up my gear properly. If you guys could cast an eye over the following method for setting up my system and add comments it would be much appreciated. I have had one go at setting up my system using the outdoors method, but wasn't convinced it was done properly and came home to study a bit more. As we get more gigs we are updating our system to a more professional rig. It is as follows:
Monitors:
2 x Yamaha SM151V's for monitors
1 x Yamaha P3200 amp running monitors in stereo
1 x Behringer DSP 1100P Feedback Destroyer Pro
FOH:
2 x Pro Studio Twin 15" and horn 400W @ 4 Ohm. Sorry, I have searched high and low on the net for information on these speakers, and aside from finding out that they are crap, can find no reference to the manufacturer except that they may come from Texas. I have had them for 14 years and bought them from a music shop as part of a PA package for bands. They are heavy and the old style wood box construction, very similar to the JBL TR225's that Gadget spoke so fondly of in one of the posts I read today
Anyway, they don't have all that woeful a sound and have served us well. Unfortunately, I can't provide specs. (Pulled out one of the drivers, but no info on those either.)
1 x Yamaha P5000S amp driving FOH in stereo & have a spare Yamaha P4500 not being used.
2 x EV sba760 15" powered subs in stereo
1 x Driverack PA+
1 x Yamaha MG12/4Fx Mixer-Upgrading to a PreSonus 16.4.2 mixer this week.
We have been doing KJ/DJ work, but there has been more demand for our two piece lately, doing rock/ pop with backing tracks, Roland electronic drums and vocals. The main venue is outdoors in a beer garden about 65ft x 45ft. As I found out the other night, at this venue with this rig and about 200 people it is undergunned. I am going to move the subs from under the tops and lay them on their sides in the center of the stage, I have made stands for the tops to get the horn at head level (6ft).
I have read a few different RTA mic distance recommendations for the outdoor tuning method... Is it 22ft on a towel, 6-8ft on a stand, or something else?
From the info read, does a crossover of 30Hz, BW18 and 100Hz, LR24 H&L sound feasible if you don't know the top speaker specs?
The delay setting is one that has me confused, how is this determined?
Are the subs initially supposed to be outdoor tuned by themselves as well (if they are not going to be under the tops), before you EQ them by ear with the tuned tops for gigs?
Do you temporarily lower the crossover during the tuning process to 50Hz to tune the top if it is tuned by itself?
In the weekend challenge, is it still worth boosting the low frequencies as stated if an electronic drum kit is being used rather than accoustic, or are these EQ's already done in the drum brain?
Looking at my spare amp it recommends that no less than 8 ohms be used in bridge mode, so I guess that rules out using both amps to drive the FOH speakers individually.Apologies for so many questions, but I have to get this right this weekend to avoid being chased down the road by :evil: shift workers when I light up the local sports oval with some pink noise.
Thanks for a great site, I have learnt quite a lot and being a drummer that needs to concentrate on playing drums more rather than stressing on whether the sound is alright or not, it is proving to be choosing the right path. We don't have anyone to run the sound for us, so getting us as close as possible to a good sound will be awesome. The crappy tops will go eventually.......
Firstly thanks to all concerned for the information posted here. I have been on this site for hours and hours trying to get the information to set up my gear properly. If you guys could cast an eye over the following method for setting up my system and add comments it would be much appreciated. I have had one go at setting up my system using the outdoors method, but wasn't convinced it was done properly and came home to study a bit more. As we get more gigs we are updating our system to a more professional rig. It is as follows:
Monitors:
2 x Yamaha SM151V's for monitors
1 x Yamaha P3200 amp running monitors in stereo
1 x Behringer DSP 1100P Feedback Destroyer Pro
FOH:
2 x Pro Studio Twin 15" and horn 400W @ 4 Ohm. Sorry, I have searched high and low on the net for information on these speakers, and aside from finding out that they are crap, can find no reference to the manufacturer except that they may come from Texas. I have had them for 14 years and bought them from a music shop as part of a PA package for bands. They are heavy and the old style wood box construction, very similar to the JBL TR225's that Gadget spoke so fondly of in one of the posts I read today
Anyway, they don't have all that woeful a sound and have served us well. Unfortunately, I can't provide specs. (Pulled out one of the drivers, but no info on those either.)1 x Yamaha P5000S amp driving FOH in stereo & have a spare Yamaha P4500 not being used.
2 x EV sba760 15" powered subs in stereo
1 x Driverack PA+
1 x Yamaha MG12/4Fx Mixer-Upgrading to a PreSonus 16.4.2 mixer this week.
We have been doing KJ/DJ work, but there has been more demand for our two piece lately, doing rock/ pop with backing tracks, Roland electronic drums and vocals. The main venue is outdoors in a beer garden about 65ft x 45ft. As I found out the other night, at this venue with this rig and about 200 people it is undergunned. I am going to move the subs from under the tops and lay them on their sides in the center of the stage, I have made stands for the tops to get the horn at head level (6ft).
I have read a few different RTA mic distance recommendations for the outdoor tuning method... Is it 22ft on a towel, 6-8ft on a stand, or something else?
From the info read, does a crossover of 30Hz, BW18 and 100Hz, LR24 H&L sound feasible if you don't know the top speaker specs?
The delay setting is one that has me confused, how is this determined?
Are the subs initially supposed to be outdoor tuned by themselves as well (if they are not going to be under the tops), before you EQ them by ear with the tuned tops for gigs?
Do you temporarily lower the crossover during the tuning process to 50Hz to tune the top if it is tuned by itself?
In the weekend challenge, is it still worth boosting the low frequencies as stated if an electronic drum kit is being used rather than accoustic, or are these EQ's already done in the drum brain?
Looking at my spare amp it recommends that no less than 8 ohms be used in bridge mode, so I guess that rules out using both amps to drive the FOH speakers individually.Apologies for so many questions, but I have to get this right this weekend to avoid being chased down the road by :evil: shift workers when I light up the local sports oval with some pink noise.
Thanks for a great site, I have learnt quite a lot and being a drummer that needs to concentrate on playing drums more rather than stressing on whether the sound is alright or not, it is proving to be choosing the right path. We don't have anyone to run the sound for us, so getting us as close as possible to a good sound will be awesome. The crappy tops will go eventually.......
0
Comments
With electronic drums you can treat them like any other full range source...
Outdoors you need to really look at how loud you need to get ultimately...if you need to get REALLY LOUD you'll need to move the speakers farther away from the mic because the DRPA will only let the speakers get so loud before there is clipping on the inputs....So figure at least 18-20 feet or so...Conversely if your going to be playing softer at some gigs it's probably a good idea to have a quieter setting as well. Put the mic on a stand outdoors as long as there isn't any concrete or tar involved. This is really all about NO reflective surfaces!
Also, you can do the tops and subs together outdoors if you wish, but if you need a fullrange without subs form time to time get a fullrange setup for the tops as well and store it. Just use one top, and realize that if you use 2 subs you'll likely have to do some adjusting indoors...
Subs together don't necessarily HAVE to be centered, the placement in a space will ultimately determine the coverage but you could just as easily place the subs under one side of the PA and not worry as much about delay, which you probably don't have enough of...
LOSE the Behringer FBX unit, it's redundant ...
I've seen plenty of P series Yamaha amps run bridged into 4 ohm loads, the spec on the site even states "STEREO RL=2 ohm 1300WPC" and 2 ohm's stereo is the same technically as 4 ohms mono...but isn't the limitation here the subs anyway?
The crossovers and HPF you set are fine...
Guru G
I will give these tips a try this weekend. I have just received the Presonus 16.4.2, so it's pretty exciting to see how much of a difference it will make to the system. It's a bit of a bummer about the tops not being high enough as I spent the whole day welding and cutting box tube to make one last weekend. Ahh well, if I try putting the subs under one side of the tops I guess I only have to make one for now.
Just a note on the Behringer Feedback Destroyer, it is only on the Monitors, which are not running through the Driverack PA+, so this would still be required for them eh? Some drunken karaoke newbies like to act the rock star and flop around on the floor waving the mics in front of the speakers.....
The reason for asking about using both amps on the FOH speakers is that I read one of your posts yesterday Gadget that talked about better clarity and improved performance with more power on tap for the speakers, rather than being underpowered.. It's not because i want them to go any louder, because they have more than required to cover the subs, just looking to make a bunch of small improvements to sound quality rather than volume. Maybe more like trying to polish a turd if the speakers aren't top quality, but curious to know if it is of any real benefit.
From the limited reading I have done on speaker design, I gather that the actual box (dimensions, ports etc) is designed to get the best out of the drivers. What I am wondering is if I could install better or high quality drivers into the FOH speakers to improve them, or is cab design that crucial that I would be better off just buying a complete new set of tops. I have seen some references to home made cabs on this forum. These boxes are pretty sturdy, and if putting better components in them would be a good option, do you think it is worth looking into?
Cheers and thanks for your thoughts
Is this a permanent type set-up? That is what I have envisioned. Along with them scaffolding type speaker stands. I say that to say this. Be aware that depending on the building techniques and materials used to build them that they could "ring" / resonate. Solvable, but might have to resolve.
DRA
One thing I have noticed though.. a good quality cabinet can sound good with a number of drivers, some cabinets however don't sound good with ANY driverrs... but then the above becomes much more critical where bass applications are concerned.
Congrats on the Presonus, you'll LOVE it I'm sure...I really love the remote mixing with the Ipad, especially being able to stand on stage and set up and tune the monitors right there with the performers!
Get yourself over and register the board on the Presonus site and get on the forum and there you will find so much help it will make life much easier. If you intend to do live capture recordings using a laptop, you'll need top know a BUNCH about PC laptop optimization and compatibility... BTW tech help is much better (for the most part) and faster on the forum, their tech department is swamped!
Also, there is a "load" button that allows you to get a good starting point... press the [select] button on any given channel (lets use #1 as the Kick mic) Press the [scene] button under the display and use the [value] encoder to (rotate all the way counter clockwise) select kick 1 and then press [recall on the far upper right near the encoder.
This will give you a good starting point for the kick drum on a well tuned system...remember that this sets the entire fat channel up including gates and compressor, some applications (like bass guitar) tend to have a bit heavy handed compression so make sure to check the gain reduction if the sound seems to be low in volume or compressed ... (although the comps are VERY neural and hi end sounding (transparent) which is good unless your looking for "effect" type compression.
Just tried to post a reply, typed it all out with my two fingers and it vanished in to the ether when I clicked preview. :evil:
Anyway, tried the 16.4.2 and PA+ at yesterday's gig and haven't got it right. Sound came out a lot more defined, but system output volume was way down on the previous mixer/ EQ combo. Followed your advice Dra and made a scaffold to get the right top cabinet above head height, lay the two subs on their side and stacked them on top of each other and put the top cabinet on top of them. Aligned all drivers vertically and horizontally in the stack as best as could be.
When I turned op the gain on the subs to performance level, one sub was cancelling out the other, so I ended up running the show on one sub as I didn't have time to go right into it. Tried running them daisy chained in mono, but no difference. I'm guessing that this is phase cancellation and I will have to read up on it. It's the first time I have come across it, kinda weird to be turning up the gain on one sub to hear the bass dropping between them both out as you go. I went to the sports oval to run system testing on Friday and it was way too windy, so had to do the best I could with auto EQ in the two hours before the show in a tennis court at the venue. Basically it was a train wreck as far as getting a nicely tuned flat response goes.
I am going to do a hard reset on the PA+ and start again.
Cheers "E"
Use an unbalanced 1/4" cable to the first sub and then jump with an unbalanced 1/4" to the 2nd sub.
Did you lose output when you turned them up? If you did, then one of the speakers has to be wired backwards. Are these new cabs? Have you used them before?
If the problem is no longer present then you must have a out of phase XLR cable.
DRA
I too am a hunt and peck..er
As Dra said sounds like either a cord has one of it's plugs wired backwards or the speaker itself is wired backwards. You can test this with a 9 volt battery... + on the speaker to + on the battery - on the speaker and - on the battery should make the speaker cone move OUTWARDS. (except certain JBL drivers that are WOUND backwards) Thus, if your using 1/4" cables tip = + and sleeve = -, speakons are 1+ = + and 1- = -...
Powered subs.
DRA
Thanks heaps for helping me out guys, played a show outdoors last night at the usual venue and the system was sounding sweet and nicely defined. It has been a bit of a mission getting the tuning done, but well worth the effort. We are flushing out a lot of the great vocalists in this town and the shows are getting a great response in numbers and positive feedback. I tuned the cabs at the maximum volume (after gain structure set and at the advised I/P & O/P levels) that the system can push out, because we pretty much run it at that for these shows to keep up with the place. I have pulled back the gain on both the subs after stacking them under the left top, so it's good to know that they are not being pushed as hard.
The subs cancelling each other as raised in previous posts was my fault :oops: I replaced a driver in one box a few months back and even with the CLEAR + and - markings labelled on the wires, still managed to reverse the connections. IDIOT
The Presonus is a niiiiiice desk. I'm still getting to know it, but it makes mixing the shows even more fun.
All this gear fits nicely into my furniture trailer so I am going to look at buying some replacement tops that are around the same dimensions as the current ones- 46 x 21 x 18 inches. Because the subs are doing it a bit harder than the tops, is it feasible to buy a good quality top, say 2 x 15", bi amp them and cross them over lower to take a bit more of the load? I am looking at JBL SRX 725's and two QSC PLX3102's, or similar from other brands in the specs, price and quality range. Any opinions on this choice of cabinet/ amp?
We are going to rebuild this system over the next few months, so if necessary we will sell the two subs and upgrade to something that will keep up with the two new tops, but must have the same dimensions as the two current subs combined at 23 x 33 x 26 inches. Tops first though....
Cheers,
E
AND instead of 2X15 like the JBL SRX 725's get something that is a bit more vocal friendly.. like the SRX 722, or better yet 4X D.A.S. RF1264 ...with 120 degree coverage per side and MUCH smaller footprint. The 12" are 4" voice coil 2400 watt drivers (program) and 2" exit 3" voice coil drivers on 60 degree horns (that means array-able!)
The RF1264 are about $700 each and they are THE bang for the buck speaker around by FAR! The SRX 725's are about $1600 each...and have only 75 degree horizontal coverage, as do the SRX 722...(SRX722 $1700)
NOT that important to take lo mid coverage off the subs...
G
The subs I'm talking about:
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tapped_h ... L=TH%20118
Those D.A.S. tops are available by calling Northern sound and lighting ... they are not advertised or on the site, but are available, and are a serious "bang for the buck"! NOTHING even comes close at that price!
http://www.dasaudio.com/index.asp?pagin ... =1&lang=en
Wide venues 2 per side, narrow venues one on top of the other (horns together) Even has a rotatable horn..Win Win.