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Set-up suggestions
go2ldook
Posts: 17
Hi, just joined, and please excuse my ignorance. I have a 3 piece band and the PA falls to me. My equipment:
1) Allen & Heath MixWizard 16:2
2) Powered speakers: Yamaha MSR400 Speakers x3 (two up top, one as a monitor). MSR800 sub. Cheap Euro-live Behringer as 2nd small monitor.
3) DBX dual channel graphic equalizer
4) Lexicon MX400 effects processor
5) Driverack PX
6) ACP88 Presonus 8 channel compressor
Our instruments are drums, guitar, bass and we do have a keyboard. All 3 of us sing some vocals.
There are 2 set-up situations:
1) outdoors or at a large venue we would use all of the above with the sub, guitar, drums mic'd. Bass might go into PA with direct box.
2) (more common) small venue. No drums mic'd (or minimal...maybe kick and snare). We do not use the sub for this scenario. Only vocals and synth go through the PA unless, again, we choose to minimally mic the drums.
Not knowing any better, I have been using DriverackPX to set-up the main speakers. The monitors have not been involved in the set-up process. They run through the DBX dual GE, I do the set-up routine, and hope the monitors just do fine, relying on mic placement and occasional ringing out of the feedback with the equalizer. Having begun to read through the forums, I am clearly selling myself short.
1) So can I have a system with a sub, two tops, and two different monitor mixes if I am running a mono PA set-up using DriverackPX? I guess I assume no...not enough inputs? For the single monitor scenario I assume you put run the L/R house mix from your mixer into a single input in the DriveRack using a splitter (or is that stupid...since mono, would you just run L signal only in and not even bother with a right signal?). And the monitor out goes to the other input. As for the outputs...do you use L/R out to the tops, one sub output for the sub and one for the monitor...or do you have to use one top output for both top mains and one top output for the monitor?
2) If I cannot have 2 monitor separate monitor mixes due to lack of inputs, I assume the best I can do is run the 2nd monitor through the DBX GE and only use one in the set-up process. 2 monitor mixes is very important...I play guitar and keyboards and sing. The drummer also sings, but does not want the keyboards blaring in his mix like I do.
3) The equalization: I have read something about doing the EQ by aiming the speaker at the floor with the mike on the floor or reflected surface. Is the AutoEQ a one time thing you do for the speakers (i.e. I would do it in my man cave and use the same settings at the venue) or are you doing that at each venue? Do you do the same for the sub? I have done the whole set-up process at a venue in the past and obviously learned that you make enemies that way.
4) Same with the AutoLevel: is that something people do at home and save in a Preset, then skip that step and the AutoEQ at the venue, only using the AFS at the venue itself to ring out the feedback?
More questions will come, but if I can get some straight answers to these issues, I might be able to narrow my reading and figure this all out. Any comments on us of compression would be great. As I recall I have used the DriveRackPX mostly for it's limiter ability since I have the multi-channel compressor to use as inserts on the vocals and drums. But I may make myself an even smaller set-up using a A&H Zed mixer, the DriveRackPX and the Lexicon effects, so I might consider using its compression for the vocals as long as it does not adversely affect the keyboard that would run through the smaller set-up.
Any advice on these scenarios would be greatly appreciated. I have done a bit of reading, but still a newbie by far. Just understanding a mixer itself was a bit of work, so I have a long way to go, and the DriveRack is complicated!
1) Allen & Heath MixWizard 16:2
2) Powered speakers: Yamaha MSR400 Speakers x3 (two up top, one as a monitor). MSR800 sub. Cheap Euro-live Behringer as 2nd small monitor.
3) DBX dual channel graphic equalizer
4) Lexicon MX400 effects processor
5) Driverack PX
6) ACP88 Presonus 8 channel compressor
Our instruments are drums, guitar, bass and we do have a keyboard. All 3 of us sing some vocals.
There are 2 set-up situations:
1) outdoors or at a large venue we would use all of the above with the sub, guitar, drums mic'd. Bass might go into PA with direct box.
2) (more common) small venue. No drums mic'd (or minimal...maybe kick and snare). We do not use the sub for this scenario. Only vocals and synth go through the PA unless, again, we choose to minimally mic the drums.
Not knowing any better, I have been using DriverackPX to set-up the main speakers. The monitors have not been involved in the set-up process. They run through the DBX dual GE, I do the set-up routine, and hope the monitors just do fine, relying on mic placement and occasional ringing out of the feedback with the equalizer. Having begun to read through the forums, I am clearly selling myself short.
1) So can I have a system with a sub, two tops, and two different monitor mixes if I am running a mono PA set-up using DriverackPX? I guess I assume no...not enough inputs? For the single monitor scenario I assume you put run the L/R house mix from your mixer into a single input in the DriveRack using a splitter (or is that stupid...since mono, would you just run L signal only in and not even bother with a right signal?). And the monitor out goes to the other input. As for the outputs...do you use L/R out to the tops, one sub output for the sub and one for the monitor...or do you have to use one top output for both top mains and one top output for the monitor?
2) If I cannot have 2 monitor separate monitor mixes due to lack of inputs, I assume the best I can do is run the 2nd monitor through the DBX GE and only use one in the set-up process. 2 monitor mixes is very important...I play guitar and keyboards and sing. The drummer also sings, but does not want the keyboards blaring in his mix like I do.
3) The equalization: I have read something about doing the EQ by aiming the speaker at the floor with the mike on the floor or reflected surface. Is the AutoEQ a one time thing you do for the speakers (i.e. I would do it in my man cave and use the same settings at the venue) or are you doing that at each venue? Do you do the same for the sub? I have done the whole set-up process at a venue in the past and obviously learned that you make enemies that way.
4) Same with the AutoLevel: is that something people do at home and save in a Preset, then skip that step and the AutoEQ at the venue, only using the AFS at the venue itself to ring out the feedback?
More questions will come, but if I can get some straight answers to these issues, I might be able to narrow my reading and figure this all out. Any comments on us of compression would be great. As I recall I have used the DriveRackPX mostly for it's limiter ability since I have the multi-channel compressor to use as inserts on the vocals and drums. But I may make myself an even smaller set-up using a A&H Zed mixer, the DriveRackPX and the Lexicon effects, so I might consider using its compression for the vocals as long as it does not adversely affect the keyboard that would run through the smaller set-up.
Any advice on these scenarios would be greatly appreciated. I have done a bit of reading, but still a newbie by far. Just understanding a mixer itself was a bit of work, so I have a long way to go, and the DriveRack is complicated!
0
Comments
No, with the DRPA+ you can do mono tops and subs with one monitor mix the PX you cannot...you only have 2 ins and 4 outs... the DRPA+ has 6 outs...so the one input can run the tops and subs on 2 of the outputs ( lets say Left input and high and low outputs) and the monitor mix can be run through the other input (to the Mid output of the right channel...)
Correct, however you can use the DRPX to do an auto EQ pass and flatten the monitors and transfer that data into the GEQ for each monitor.
Not really...the speaker is on it's side and the mic is on a towel or carpet... this is all in the FAQ section on the front page...
viewforum.php?f=60
Check out the outdoor freespace auto eq as well..
You'll find that the Auto Eq is to flatten the speakers response, typically you won't get the chance to Auto Eq in every room... the saved flat response is then a starting point, and there are several typical equalization protocols that show up in most rooms.
Auto level is simply a way to set up gain structure, we have provided an option here in the START HERE thread:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=959
There is a post on whole system compression in the aforementioned FAQ section...
1) Follow the instructions you guys have to get a flat speaker response. Save that for future use when at a gig.
?: So no need to flat EQ the subwoofer? You say you just do it by ear after setting the crossover point
?: What would a good crossover point be for Yamaha MSR400/MSR800 pairing? The sub says 40-120Hz response, and the MSR400 has 12"drivers.
?: and I suppose I would create 2 presets: one for set-up when I use a sub, one for when I just have the MSR400s at small venues
?: Mono versus stereo? I am generally just running mono signals. You mentioned in mono you have to do each channel separately. But I am going to be doing the auto-EQ at home for a flat response, using identical speakers. Any reason to bother with mono on that? What does it matter? The only thing I would be doing at the venue is AFS, and you only have to do it once in either mode, right?
2) Set up at my gig, follow the instructions and set up gain structure (skipping the auto-EQ step). Pull up my preset for my speaker scenario (with or without subs), skip auto-EQ and "tune to ear" using some CD quality music. Tune the bass to ear. Then run the auto-FBS
?: When setting up gain structure, I obviously cannot unplug the speakers from the amp (powered speakers). I assume that was just a precaution and the built in limiters will prevent issues...just need to raise volume on the speakers until I see the red clip light come on, then back off.
3) I assume that at THIS point, I would then slowly bring up the gain in each monitor individually, and use my dbx dual GE to ring out the feedback.
4) Add in effects at this point to the vocals? Or is it best to do that before you do the AFS and ringing out the monitors?
Auto EQ of the subwoofer indoors is a no win situation. Outdoors~ less hopeless, but then we can add non linearity of the mic in the low register and we still need to evaluate every single move the Auto EQ makes any ...
118hz LR24
If you do an outdoor flattening of the top, store that as a fullrange preset, then recall that and add the LR24 @118hz and store a tops/subs preset..
Um, not exactly... in dual mono where you set up the mains and a single monitor send you do separate Auto EQ. Also where you do dual mono (as in a difficult asymmetric room that has very different things to deal with on each side of the room) you would be asked to do the Auto EQ for each channel.
The Auto EQ process is best served with ONE speaker...on a stand outdoors away from ALL reflective surfaces (this is a free space measurement) with the mic far enough away so that the speakers can achieve the volume you will be using in a venue...you may want to do a few different volumes if you play at different volumes because the speakers respond differently depending on the volume you run them.
As for AFS, if you flatten the system sufficiently I doubt you would need it, but yes, the AFS is a per venue thing.
Not really...the gain structure is part of the setup process, and only needs to be done during the setup process...
Actually the preset should already be there from the setup process or from the last gig...
If you can "tune" by ear the system in a room my hat is off to you. Actually, determining the effects of a room on the system takes years of experience and a good ear to begin with. Note here that rooms USUALLY create super bass waves in the LF areas, if the system is BOOMY the 60 hz region should be looked at...Other indoor problem areas are (typically) 160-170hz, 250-500hz, this is the muddy midrange area, and I generally use a PEQ on these. 2K,3.5k, 5k, and 8K are areas of interest for clarity and "air'.]
You cannot defeat the limiters in the speakers...if you hit them and have the limiter light going constantly you WILL have problems! So yes, see the red limit light and back off...
Actually do the Auto EQ process with the Driverack and the monitors and transfer the settings to the GEQ. Place the mic where your head would be...Set an HPF on the monitors if possible in the 150-200hz area.
This is the time.. after all the setup.
To clarify (again, I have DriveRackPX, so monitors will not go through it once set up at the venue) Do a separate auto-EQ setting for the monitor speakers that is taken with the RTA at head level for the vocalist, and then try to dial the results in on my dbx Dual EQ unit? Can that be done pretty accurately? Head position is pretty variable of course...we play in tight venues. My (lead vocalist) monitor is relatively constant in position to my head. The drummer's varies more...depending on how cramped things are it might be on the floor tilted up or sitting on something raised closer to his ear level. But I guess your suggestion is better than nothing as a start point.
If you take the PX and do an Auto EQ pass with you standing at the mic like you would during the show, and then transfer those GEQ moves to the GEQ's you have for the monitors, you will have a god start, then raise the volume of the monitors and make adjustment if needed and repeat.
If you had the DRPA+ or the updated PX you might be able to get away with the VENUE auto Eq because the new algorithm (as long as you follow a couple simple rules) takes only a few seconds and really does sound good EVERY time.
Is the updated PX just a firmware update? If so, is that easy?
And if you do that, I assume there is no need to pre-EQ the monitors at home to the flat setting, right?
No, you would auto EQ the monitors at home and then look at the product EQ curve and transfer each and every one of the fader positions to the Graphic Eq's you have for the monitors. Any room eq needed (usually the 250-500hz cut ) would have to be added per venue so it's a good idea to record the settings.
What does this upgrade cost typically?
No, the idea is to set the speakers up flat at home, and store that preset so you have something to compare the product of the room EQ to. You can also use this when you CAN'T auto EQ a room, which is more often than not actually...
A $50 upgrade is not bad, unless the net result is that I still do not feel good about using the room EQ at the venue (again, because of the patron torture factor, not "perfect" results). So I am still unsure about my best approach. Honestly, with my lack of experience, I am not sure what I would do with a comparison of a flat speaker response from home EQ measurement and the room EQ measurements at the venue. I assume you do some tweaking of the flat EQ that nets you a result different from, but influenced by, your room EQ measurement. But I am not sure I understand enough to do that.
All that said, I am not lazy, and I enjoy reading about and trying to better understand my gear. If you can direct me to a section here that walks me through that step...adjusting EQ based on a combination of known flat speaker response and room measurement...I will happily check it out and try to wrap my brain around it. But if the answer is "experience", then it seems I am just as well off with either the upgrade and using the (hopefully) faster auto-EQ at the venue, or using the flat EQ with minor tweaks by my less than experienced ear based on CD music.
Hope that all makes sense.
I don't usually find it necessary to do a whole lot of "color" eq after flattening, but then you have to get used to the sound because it's not HYPED any longer.
As for the upgrade and eq"ing EVERY ROOM, I don't find it that necessary. However, the upgrade makes the process THAT much more SUCCESSFUL and takes a FRACTION of the time (generally under 20 seconds, usually like 10- or less). IF you follow a few rules!
1. NEVER assume that placing the mic on a stand in the center of the room with both stacks running will yield ANY usable results...
2. Whenever possible mic strait out from ONE speaker, mic ON THE FLOOR, on a towel or soft carpet about 20-25' out
3. Do both sides separately wherever possible if the room isn't symmetric.
There are a whole slew of optimization tips and tricks in the FAQ section, just made for novices like you...
viewforum.php?f=60
Also gain structure is VERY important, check out this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=959
G
But I still would have to ask the question not answered:
You go to the trouble of EQing your FOH speakers at home for flat frequency response, then you suggest you go through checking room EQ at the venue (yeah, with the one speaker at a time on the towel, etc...)...OK...what was the point of the flat EQ at home? The new room EQ changes all that, and does so automatically. I would not have to understand ANYTHING about the flat EQ results to make that happen. And I would assume the room EQ turns out the same no matter what your EQ start point was. So if you are going to actually use the room EQ at the venue, what was the point of measuring flat EQ response at home? Why was that necessary? If it is all just educational and helping you understand what the room does to the sound, I can accept that. But for me personally, being a "mix from the stage" musician...I want set it and forget it simplicity. I will have way too much going on at the time of set up to seriously learn anything from it...as much as I hate to say it.
Do you see what I mean?
1. Get a flat frequency preset at home, get it as flat as possible, and store it using a name that you can easily find. This then becomes your go to preset for MOST of your gigs that are outdoors or in big good sounding rooms... (not often I suspect)
2. Recall that preset and move it to a different preset location when you go to store it... here were going to add some ROOM adjustment s.. that will crop up often. Select the Low outs PEQ (sub) set a 60 hz center point , make sure its a BELL curve and not a shelf... set a Q of about 4-5, and leave the gain set to zero. Now, if you get into a room and the subs sound BOOMY cut this frequency till the boom is taken care of... you can try moving the frequency up or down a little to locate the trouble spot, and play with the gain to get it so it only affects the boom...
Set another Peq @ 80 hz and set a Q of 6, this is the KICK thud.. adjust as necessary
Now, on the High outs you have 3 PEQ's... Set one for 160-170 hz with a Q of 3, This is for boxy sound, and you might not need it.
Set a PEQ @ 375hz with a Q of about 1... this is a VERY broad Peq, and is designed to take care of the midrange buildup that happens in most rooms...here you want to lower the gain till the mud goes away, I usually end up in the 5-8 dB of cut I'm doing sound right now and I'm @ 334hz Q=.6 and I'm -8 dB...You might not need to go that deep but that's what is working for me here and now...crystal clear sound and good dynamics...
The last on is a PEq @ 3.5khz that can be a shelf or a bell depending on whats needed...in a VERY live room, a Shelf with a 6dB/octave slope and a judicious cut can help the bouncing around sound, but first, in these rooms make sure you get the sound ON the people and off the hard surfaces (walls, ceiling...) If you need a bit more vocal clarity the bell @ that frequency and a modest boost can get the sibilance up there.
So if you do these things in most rooms there are a couple of thoughts regarding the implementation... If you want a good ïndoor starting point set the above suggestions for the 60hz, and 375 hz and start with a 4dB cut @ 60 hz and a 6dB cut @ 375 hz and leave the therm out unless needed.. have them turned on but left @ -0-dB Store these and see which (flat or room mode correction) sounds best...
Now IF you get a chance to do a room auto Eq before a performance, the FLAT curve is there so you can do a comparison and see what the room is doing to your sound....here you need to make some judgment calls, do you like the flat response , the room compensated preset or the Auto Eq you just took...I like to take the product curve and compare them and see if I can figure ot what's going on in the room and then I'll "roll my own"which generally ends up somewhere between all 3.
If you prefer to not hassle with it I'm betting you will prefer the second one, the room compensated NON room Auto EQ preset...You will find that anything below 170hz is suspect in the Auto EQ anyway indoors... so your going to have to adjust for that anyway.
If you are using a gen 1 PX FORGET about doing room Auto EQ it takes FOREVER, and really doesn't end up with that good of results without evaluating EVERY single cut or boost.
So hows that... get the picture now?
Remember you can set up the system flat and store it, and go into a room, recall that preset and modify it for a room and as long as you don't store it, you still have the base preset, and IF you like it for that room STORE it in a different location with the venue name for the preset...
I tried this on my DriveRackPX. Made a preset for Stereo pair of MSR400 tops. Chose a Custom mono sub. Then pressed the "Set-up" button and was able to select 100 Hz LR 24, but 100 Hz was as high as the selector would go. Could not get to 118 Hz. Did I do something wrong? And what is the deal with the gain at the right of the crossover set-up page? Do you leave that at 0.0 dB? Or do you use that if you have to tweak the gain to get your sub just below clipping during gain structure adjustment?
The response was 118hz LR/24
When I try to set this on the DRPX it will not let me set the crossover any higher than 100Hz. What is the deal...am i doing something wrong, or does the DRPX have some crossover limitations that other units do not? Also, it gives me the option of setting a sound level, default is 0 dB. Is this setting just used to set the gain between the DRPX and the sub? If so I would assume I turn it up with pink sound unti the sub's clip or limiter light just flickers, then turn it back.
NEVER MIND...I was doing it all wrong. See my updated next question.
So now I am understanding the DRPX more. There are 3 filters to set:
1) Low/sub outs, low pass filter: I am setting this at 118Hz LR24
2) Low/sub outs, Hi pass filter: I am setting at 30Hz BW18
3) Hi/Main outs, Hi pass filter: I am setting at 118Hz LR24
Does this look OK? Also, I am not sure what to do with the gain settings on the Hi Pass filters on the sub and mains. By default they are at 0. Do I tweak these when setting up the gain between the DRPX and the speakers? Right now, with the gain structure done for the mixer and DRPX, I am seeing the limiter light up on my powered speakers as I approach just beyond 11 oclock on the speaker level knob. So I have just backed the speaker level off to 10 oclock. I assume that should be fine, with no need to change the gain in the filters? Would I only need to change the gain in the filter if I could not get enough volume on the speaker (i.e., even at top speaker level, the limiter light never blinked?).
The crossover gains are there for any level discrepancies and gain structuring... if the noise level is good then leave them at -0-...
Yes and yes..