Request Input On How Best To Setup and What To Buy

bucksarge

Hello,

First, thanks for the great info provided here!!
Sorry for the length of this post but want to give as much info as you need.

1. Equipment:
1 x 1604 VLZ3 Mackie Mixer
2 x XTi 4002 Crown Amp
1 x XLS 602 Crown Amp
1 x XLS 802 Crown Amp
2 x MRX 512M JBL Monitors
2 x JRX 112M JBL Monitors
4 x JRX 115 JBL Speakers for FOH
2 x MRX 512M JBL Subs
1 x 20 Amp Furman Power Conditioner
4 x DI boxes for guitars and bass
1 x 50 ft Snake

2. Present Set Up As Follows:
Mackie Main Out L & R to input of:
1 x XTi 4002 Configured in SubSynth mode to power the 2 x JBL Subs...Line Outs to input of:
1 x XLS 802 to power 2 x JRX Speakers for FOH.

Mackie Aux 1 & 2 to input of:
1 x XTi 4002 Configured w/DSP off to power 4 x JBL Monitors (1 x MRX and 1 x JRX on each channel)

Mackie Low Cut Filter engaged on all except bass and kick drum

1 x 602 and 2 x JRX Speakers in reserve and not used at present (would like to get them in the mix eventually if SPL and comb filtering won't be an issue)

3. Band - Blues/Southern Rock:
2 x Electric guitars
1 x Mic'd Harmonica
1 x Acoustic guitar and vocalist
1 x Bass
1 x Vocalist
1 x Drum Kit and vocalist ( kick drum mic'd)
Play in small venues - 50 to 100 people

4. Input Needed On:
Our next purchase is, based on your input, a DriveRack PA+ and the RTA mic, but how best to connect the system to it to give the best possible mix is escaping us......can you say NEWBIE. I've read the "read here first" info concerning gain structure and setup but we're not there yet (haven't purchased). Reading through the FAQ, the post I feel would be most useful to us at present is the topic titled, "Subs, tops and a monitor feed, all on the DRPA+".

If this assumption is correct, would we use the Main Mono out of the Mackie connected to the left input of the DRPA+, from there the left Hi output goes to the FOH amp (splitter to both input channels?) and the left Lo output goes to the Subs amp (splitter to both input channels?) Would we turn off SubSynth and let the DRPA+ do its' thing? I have to get my head around something here...........where are the mids the FOH needs coming from?......have to go back and re-read the crossover info.

Likewise, would we use the Aux 1 out of the Mackie connected to the right input of the DRPA+ and from there the right Mid output goes to the Monitor amp (splitter to both input channels?).

If this is all correct and we set up as discussed, we would then go through the gain structure and setup procedure.....agreed?

With the above scenario in mind, should we be looking at the 260 for better performance/configuration?

Whew, my head is ready to explode!

Thanks for your help, input, and direction to other "reads" I need to bone up on, realizing I'll be reading and re-reading the FAQs and pertinent "general posts".

Regards,

bucksarge

Dra

"where are the mids the FOH needs coming from?"

Remember that you had to set up a 2x6 (stereo bi-amp with subs)? Left side (FOH) uses High and Low outputs, but you adjust the high outputs hi-pass (low-cut) filter down to meet the subs. Then, the right side (monitors, but only 1 mix) uses the mid output (on the right output, you open up the filters hi & low to "essentially" full range.

"With the above scenario in mind, should we be looking at the 260 for better performance/configuration?"

If money is not a huge deal, then I would always opt for the 260. So much easier to deal with because of the GUI. However, regardless of with unit you decide to get, you can only have 1 monitor mix processed. If you can score a used 260 and a used PA, that will allow stereo (if wanted) FOH and 2 separate monitor mixes (add a 3rd mix if you go mono on FOH with the 260). You can usually find a used 260 and DRPA for the price of a new 260 ($700 or less). Or simply, a pair of used DRPA's for under $500 typically)

DRA

bucksarge

Hello Dra,

Thanks for the quick feedback!!

Yeah, I kinda figured your comments on opening up the filters hi and lo was the answer....still need to re-read the crossover discussion.

The answers to my questions (probably hidden in my long post) pertaining to whether I connect the amps via a splitter to both channels and should I turn off SubSynth Mode in the Sub amp is still eluding me. Do you have any input on those?

As you didn't negate my thoughts on input needed, I'm assuming I'm on the right track???

I'll look into a used 260.....might be the way to go. Don't have the funds, yet, on a 260 and a PA+.

Thanks again for the fast feedback.

Regards,

bucksarge

Dra

No need to split the signal. Just set to mono or parallel mode and let the amp take care of it internally.

General consensus is to not use the Sub-Synth. Unless... you don't have enough low end capacity natural. However, that leads to a higher rish of damage. The only time I might consider would be like using a loudness button (only at lower volumes). Engaging when the system is giving just about all it can is asking for using the speaker as a smoke machine (one use only).

DRA

OklaPony

bucksarge wrote:

Hello,

First, thanks for the great info provided here!!
Sorry for the length of this post but want to give as much info as you need.

1. Equipment:
1 x 1604 VLZ3 Mackie Mixer
2 x XTi 4002 Crown Amp
1 x XLS 602 Crown Amp
1 x XLS 802 Crown Amp
2 x MRX 512M JBL Monitors
2 x JRX 112M JBL Monitors
4 x JRX 115 JBL Speakers for FOH
2 x MRX 512M JBL Subs
1 x 20 Amp Furman Power Conditioner
4 x DI boxes for guitars and bass
1 x 50 ft Snake
--- Snip ----

Surely this is a typo for your subs?

bucksarge

Hello OklaPony,

(Sheepish Grin) ahhh, yes it is. Shoulda been MRX 518s.

Hanging head in shame.

Regards,

bucksarge

bucksarge

No need to split the signal. Just set to mono or parallel mode and let the amp take care of it internally.
General consensus is to not use the Sub-Synth. Unless... you don't have enough low end capacity natural. However, that leads to a higher rish of damage. The only time I might consider would be like using a loudness button (only at lower volumes). Engaging when the system is giving just about all it can is asking for using the speaker as a smoke machine (one use only).
DRA

Hello DRA,

Again, thanks for your input!
Been pondering over your suggestions (quoted above):
If I run in bridged (mono) mode I'd have the following happening....the subs would be in parallel and would only be @ 2 Ohms as they are rated @ 4 Ohms each (shoulda made that apparent in my equipment list....my bad).
Likewise, in bridged (mono) mode the monitors would be running in parallel and would only be @ 2 Ohms...4, 8 Ohm speakers in parallel = 2 Ohms.

There is a pinned posting at the Crown Forum located here:
http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index. ... topic=3838
that, in essence, says although the Crown amps can run at 2 Ohms, it is putting a big strain on them to do so. I'd rather not chance it.....As you and Gadget say "Once the smoke starts to come out, you can't put it back in." Great comment!

The FOH speakers wouldn't have that issue as two 8 Ohm speakers in parallel would = 4 Ohms.

If my logic is correct then wouldn't it be better to run a splitter to both channels of the amps, running the subs @ their rated 4 ohms and the monitors @ 4 Ohms (2 x 8 Ohms in parallel each channel)?

Regards,

bucksarge

Dra

No, you missed the point. I didn't say "bridged mono". I said "mono (parallel)". Totally different animals. Mono (parallel) simply take an input into "A" (for example) and jumps it to input "B" internally so you don't have to "Y" it with a spitter. On my QCS amps that is done by a 3 position switch (stereo, parallel, and bridge). You may have a switch, or it may be done in the DSP.
In parallel, or mono (whatever term Crown uses) each side of the amp will have one sub connected (4 ohm load).

DRA

bucksarge

DRA,

Stupid me! Yes, in Crown's case (for my XTi 4002's) it's called Input Y in the Input Mode of the DSP Processes. Per the manual:
"Input Y - In this mode, the Channel 1 input signal is sent to the Channel 1 and Channel 2 output. The Channel 2 input signal is ignored."

You've been most helpful!

Now off to purchase the unit.

Regards,

bucksarge

OklaPony

bucksarge wrote:

Hello OklaPony,

(Sheepish Grin) ahhh, yes it is. Shoulda been MRX 518s.

Hanging head in shame.

Regards,

bucksarge

lol... no shame in that, geez, if I had to apologize for every typo I made I'd never get any work done!

OK, so here's my $0.02 on your setup. Since you're not having to fill a giant space or knock the socks off of a thousand people I'd say you're well on your way to a nice sounding rig. I always try to find the simplest, effective to run these types of rigs so here's my suggestion:

1. Dual-mono the subs as was previously suggested, this should be plenty for the gig you describe.
2. Move the MRX512's to the mains in stereo on the other XTI4002.
3. Sell the remaining JRX boxes to help fund the purchase of 4 MRX512/PRX412 boxes and 1 DRPA+
4. Use the DRPA to setup your mains, then transfer the settings to the XTI's
5. Put the DRPA on your 2 monitor mixes.

While I'm a big fan of JBL, the JRX boxes just don't cut the mustard in my opinion. If buying new boxes isn't an option you can still utilize the basic idea here with your existing stuff. You could also sell your remaining XLS amps to help fund an XTI6002 for the subs, then move the 4002 over to monitors.

Just thought I'd throw that out there...

Gadget

So let me ask you this...On the Presonus site we have a guy that has blown the horns three times now, and he is on his 4th... JBL refuses to do anything because "there is nothing wrong with the speakers" I had him hook the horn outputs to the 15" woofers to verify if there was a component failure or some other failure and he says there is nothing but HF in the outputs...have you seen or heard of this ...or is it just more crappy drivers in the MRX as well?

The spec says that they cross the horn driver @ 1500 hz which to me is WAY too low for a 1.5" driver...

My distaste for JBL stems from their holier than thou attitude and the harshness of all of their horns.. but was really fueled by their low end product.. as you said the JRX are crappy, but the TRX series was a downright ugly joke. I'm afraid I'm not a big fan of the MRX series either.. the fact that they shipped the SRX 722's, a flagship portable product, with two different drivers, and then argued with us about making it right was just further proof that JBL is too darn big for their britches...I'll take a Peavey SP2 over anything in the lower cost JBL line. They are WAY tougher, louder, and much tighter sounding. Ya they make crap too but they are at least responsive when you have a problem...

OklaPony

Gadget wrote:

So let me ask you this...On the Presonus site we have a guy that has blown the horns three times now, and he is on his 4th... JBL refuses to do anything because "there is nothing wrong with the speakers" I had him hook the horn outputs to the 15" woofers to verify if there was a component failure or some other failure and he says there is nothing but HF in the outputs...have you seen or heard of this ...or is it just more crappy drivers in the MRX as well?

I can only assume this is rhetorical since there's obviously no way I can attempt to answer this without knowing the rest of the setup, application, etc. I can only say that if it was one of my clients having this issue with a piece of warranted gear I'd probably loan him a cab until this was resolved thus relieving the client of the issue.

Gadget wrote:

The spec says that they cross the horn driver @ 1500 hz which to me is WAY too low for a 1.5" driver...

Oh, I dunno... technology changed a ton in the last decade, although in general I would tend to agree with you on this.

Gadget wrote:

My distaste for JBL stems from their holier than thou attitude and the harshness of all of their horns.. but was really fueled by their low end product.. as you said the JRX are crappy, but the TRX series was a downright ugly joke. I'm afraid I'm not a big fan of the MRX series either.. the fact that they shipped the SRX 722's, a flagship portable product, with two different drivers, and then argued with us about making it right was just further proof that JBL is too darn big for their britches...I'll take a Peavey SP2 over anything in the lower cost JBL line. They are WAY tougher, louder, and much tighter sounding. Ya they make crap too but they are at least responsive when you have a problem...

Once again not knowing the specifics of the situation I'm left to wonder why you were dealing with JBL direct as opposed to going back to the dealer and let it be their problem instead of yours... maybe you were the dealer? No matter what the case, I'd be plenty PO'd about receiving a set of 722's that were messed up to that degree.

As you probably know Harman went through a MASSIVE restructure last year. I had a warranty issue with the input / amp section of a PRX cab that was dead out of the box. I got an RA, pulled the input section out of the cab and sent it off. I didn't hear anything for awhile so after I tracked it down I was told that because I pulled the unit from the cab that I voided the warranty. This obviously didn't set with me too well and after the right person heard the story I very quickly received it back, repaired, under warranty as it should have been. Now, bear in mind that this happened before the reorganization. Ever since the reorganization any warranty issue I've had has been handled very quickly whether it was on behalf of a customer or something out of my stock.

As to the "harshness" of JBL horns, remember the Peavey 44's? Yikes! :shock:

On the SP2's, when it comes to a full range box I think I would tend to agree but as a top box probably not. No big deal, that's why there are so many different cabs to choose from, right?

So, what do you think of my suggestions for bucksarge?

Gadget

Were the contractor, and dealer...we did a run with SMAART after instal... Mike Kovach was the tuner. Couldn't even reproduce 12k5 on the driver that was the right one the other was just way outa whack..new driver was no better... very disappointing...

What I was wondering is, if you had heard anything about the drivers in the MRX... the guy was saying that he had heard they were really crappy drivers. In each case he blew BOTH drivers...he is now moving on to Selenium 1.75" diaphragm drivers.

The recommendations look fine.

OklaPony

I've not heard anything about the MRX high freq. drivers although I really don't deal with a bunch of them. I'll ask around and let you know if I hear anything.

bucksarge

OK, so here's my $0.02 on your setup. Since you're not having to fill a giant space or knock the socks off of a thousand people I'd say you're well on your way to a nice sounding rig. I always try to find the simplest, effective to run these types of rigs so here's my suggestion:

1. Dual-mono the subs as was previously suggested, this should be plenty for the gig you describe.
2. Move the MRX512's to the mains in stereo on the other XTI4002.
3. Sell the remaining JRX boxes to help fund the purchase of 4 MRX512/PRX412 boxes and 1 DRPA+
4. Use the DRPA to setup your mains, then transfer the settings to the XTI's
5. Put the DRPA on your 2 monitor mixes.

While I'm a big fan of JBL, the JRX boxes just don't cut the mustard in my opinion. If buying new boxes isn't an option you can still utilize the basic idea here with your existing stuff. You could also sell your remaining XLS amps to help fund an XTI6002 for the subs, then move the 4002 over to monitors.

Hello OklaPony,

I appreciate the input.....gives me a great deal to ponder.
We (the band) have been trying to upgrade our system for the past year and the long term plan is to replace the JRX speakers we presently have. It's just going to take time (and money). I really like the idea of transferring the settings of the DRPA to the XTi's....that we can do during the setup process once we receive the unit and RTA mic and, hey, no extra bucks outlayed

I'm impressed with the feedback I've received from this forum. DRA, OklaPony, and Gadget......thank you. I'll be back, I'm sure, with questions once the unit arrives and we begin setting it up. Until then, continue you're good work.

Regards,

bucksarge