PA+ connections with new system and powered speakers

Shanny

Hello and thank you for allowing me to join the forum. I have learned an AMAZING amount of info. already prior to even registering as a user. As the statement goes "that the more you learn the less you know" couldn't be more true... I am floored as to how complicated all this can get and the knowledge base that the moderators can provide.

I can honestly say I have done my diligent homework and have a lot to do once I get my "new" system hooked up properly. But that is where my primary question lies, I need some advice as to the best way to hook it all up!!!! I would greatly appreciate any input.

My system is as follows:

Presonus Studiolive 16.4.2 mixer
DR PA+

JBL PRX 15 tops
JBL PRX618S-XLF Subwoofers
JBL EON powered monitors (10") - (4 of them since the presonus allows for 4 separate monitor mixes)

My confusion is, do I run 2 outputs from the board into the PA+ and then out the lows to the subs and out the highs to the tops and daisychain them? (I know these speakers have a built in xover) Or, do I run out of both low outputs of the PA+ into the subs and then run a cable from the subs to the tops??

(Once I get it wired properly, then I will use all the good info on here to dial it all in)

This will be used for a 4 piece cover band with female lead vox. We play clubs, weddings, and periodic outdoor stuff...

I am coming off of an old system using the Mackie 1604 with bunches of rack gear, Crest CA poweramps, and Grundorf subs and tops... I'm tired of hauling all this stuff and all the space it takes..

Thanks in advance.... I look forward to your input!!!

Gadget

Welcome and thanks for the kind words, were proud of the knowledge divvied out here and the number of good folks we have helped.

Here is what I would do...

First, I would run mono FOH and use the other input to provide a single monitor feed for the female lead... congrats on the Presonus board I am also a seasoned user and have fully implemented the features of the board, and you will be BLOWN away by all this little wonder can do....in FACT it plays into the whole scheme of things since the board has a 31 band EQ on ALL outputs, including auxes and mains!

So use the mono out of the Presonus, feed the left input of the DRPA with that mono SL output...use whichever Aux you use for the lead singer and feed the right input of the DRPA+ with that...here is the FAQ on the setup:

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2228

Now, do an auto EQ of the mains, again follow the FAQS:

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2986

Predicated on the dual mono setup we used in the setup phase you will get a "not finished" message when you finish the mains auto EQ, this is because the DRPA+ wants to do the other channel, this is hooked up to the monitor, so use this post to do an auto EQ pass on one of the monitors. Here is the important thing...make sure when you are done with the auto eq pass that you work with the monitor and the EQ a bit and make sure you have the hotspots located and equalized properly. Place the mic in the correct position for that mic type ( at the base of the mic stand for SM 58 type pattern mics 'cardioid' or 10 and 2 position for super and hypercardioid pattern mics) and cup the mic, use your hand flat on the mic, aim the mic at the speaker like someone who is singing with it handheld might do...

Get the monitor as stable as possible using ONLY the GEQ ... then transfer the settings to ALL the other eq's on the SL aux outputs (but not the one for the lead singer, use the driverack for that) this way you will have stabilized the monitors using the driverack and transferred these to the SL... further stabilizing on each monitor can be realized by using the same techniques you used on the lead singers monitor.

Remember that each speaker can be a little different so mark each monitor as to which mix it will be on, and tune it to that mix with that EQ.

The SL allows you to save scenes, and this is exactly where you do this. Once you have the SL connected to a computer, and get Universal Control (VSL) working, set up a scene, rename the scene (whatever) highlight the scene and click the + prompt will ask if you want to overwrite the scene, click yes, and the scene is stored. To add that to the COMPUTERS memory.. drag and drop the scene into the lower box under the scenes (if you don't do this the scenes could be lost durring updates)

To recall that scene or any other, drag the scene to the VSL desktop and it will populate the screen. You can name the channels, auxes, submasters and when stored will all come back to the host computer and Ipad, Ipod, or Ipod touch when re-loaded. The board stores things automatically, but the UC only when you tell it to, so store FOR SURE as the last thing you do before shutdown IF you want to get back to that exact setup ... store the scene...

So, now you have everything but the crossover settings.. and that would be 100hz LR24 for tops/subs, let the subs set the HPF and limiting, and set an HPF of 130hz> on the monitors, no need letting all that low end get to the stage..only muddies up the sound..

There is another possibility here, do All the monitors with the GEQ's on the SL and use one of the 6 auxes as an AUX fed sub...that's what I would do... Oh wait...that's what I said before... Oh well pick your poison... it's all good!

Oh and the Presonus SL16:4:2 offers up to 6 monitor mixes... or 5 mixes and aux fed subs, or in my case 4 monitor mixes, one aux fed sub mix and one EFX send to an outboard processor...
G

Shanny

Wow!!! Thanks so much Gadget.... I ask a question about connecting things and you give me an amazing amount of info to work with to get all this going....Much appreciated! I can't wait to dive in and do all the programming between the presonus and the DRPA+.... I'm sure it'll sound awesome!

I want to clarify one detail if I may. Just so I know I have it all connected properly... (and btw, thanks for the great advice about going mono with this and using the other channel on the DRPA for the female monitor!) Love it! My question is: I understand the mono out of SL to left in on the DRPA+...then left low out and high low out to the speakers.... (this is probably a dumb question , but I gotta make sure I'm doing this right!) --- the low out goes to one sub, and then am I "daisychaining" to the other sub, and then doing the same thing with the high out? (out of DRPA+ to one top and then daisychain to the other top)???? If so, then my xover points will be set through the DRPA+ to go to their respective areas.....???

If I have that correct, then I know I am hooked up and I'll dive into the auto eq and all the other goodies you suggested to make it all run.... I'm sure other questions will arise but I just need to be certain I have all the cabling correct...

(The beauty of all this is that I go from a massive collection of outboard gear and VERY heavy power amps that are a bitch to move, down to a presonus board, the DRPA+, 2 powered mains, 2 powered subs and 4 powered monitors) (I also love your comments about about the BBE sonic "crapilizer" - I was offered one of these by a bandmate and I told him delicately we wouldn't be needing it)

Thanks again!!!

Gadget

YES now go for it!

Dra

I would recommend one small tweek to the DRPA+'s set-up. So that you can have separate "flattening" PEQs, set up the DRPA+ as 2x6, instead of 2x4. Then use the mid output on the right (monitor) side. This allows (along with separate GEQ) not only the separate PEQ for different speakers, but the monitor can have a HPF and LPF. Also, separate limiters. Just a little bonus.

DRA

Shanny

Thanks so much for the further info DRA... much appreciated. I did the set up last night per all of Gadget's suggestions and I feel it went very well overall... In general things seemed to flow as they should. Ironically, I did notice as all the set up completed, the DRPA showed a 2x4 set up. And I thought it was supposed to be 2x6.... so did I program something wrong? If so, what do I need to do to get it set at 2x6??

I do have the right input coming from AUX 1 and the mid out going to the monitor as Gadget had suggested and the left in and out (Low and High) is running the mains... I got a little lost with all the EQ stuff on the monitor and how to set up the presonus board with it...

But so far, I did the set up wizard, the auto eq and the AFS and things seem to be sounding good... Once I fix the "2x6" issue I should be even better!

Thanks for any further input....

Dra

To be honest I only scanned Gadget's reply (once the Presonus discussion starts, I turn away ), so I was responding to your comments. To get to a 2 x 6... in the wizard select... Custom - Bi-amp tops, with subs.
It is that simple. If you selected the PRX's in the menu, you can't get to 2x6 (because they are not bi-ampable, even though they are bi-amped).

DRA

Shanny

Well... I'm back for more because as you say - the more you learn you realize the less you know!

When I originally hooked it all up and did my first run with set up wizard it was all dialed in with prx settings and showed a 2x4 set up, sounded fairly solid and full...

Redid it today to create the 2x6 set up as Dra suggested (chose "custom" from meno for tops and subs).... Seemed to struggle with doing the "auto level", kept telling me to adjust the dial on the back of the speaker(?).... Bypassed that, did auto eq, then afs.... Saved it and it came out sounding real "nasally" midrangy with minimal warmth to subs.... I got real lost in setting the xover.... Hz? Bw filters and all that.... I know if the speakers are connected to each other they automatically handle the xover issue but with the DRPA set up, how do I get that in the right spot?

I've been doing all this with the pa set up outside firing at the rta mic with mic on a towel straight out from the speaker stack.....

Trying not to be a pain in the @ss, but I feel like I'm close but just missing a few important details....

Thanks in advance for any further input!!!

Gadget

The thing about outdoor auto EQ is it can be tricky.. if there is any wind or tree's buildings around...try JUST the top. on a stand or sub, (preferably a stand) mioc on a stand and start about 10 feet out, on axis and see what you get, then try moving back a bit more to 15 feet and compare that. maybe again a bit farther at 20 feet. Here you would just lower the xover point to 60 hz. This can then be stored as a fullrange setup and you can store for future use as well.

Next, when you get done with each call up the GEQ curve and look at it carefully. Any major cut or boost is to be looked at with skepticism. you should listen to some music you are more than familiar with and check the product, it isn't perfect, but gives a good starting point. This will start to give you an idea what distance does to the process. Same goes for off access.

The crossover frequency might also be worked with a bit...remember that with an ABS cabinets the lower the frequency the more resonances will be present in the tops, and the lower the clarity with volume will be.

I wouldn't suggest lower than 100hz or higher than 130hz, maybe 118 hz, LR24 would be a good starting point...

When you add the subs, the auto EQ isn't really very accurate below 170hz indoors, but outdoors it can also be tricky. With no boundaries your fighting a loosing battle unless you have lots of muscle and subs... so just do yourself a favor and work with the sound of the subs by ear.

The setup wizard is only trying to balance the tops and subs, and the above is much of the reason for your trouble, do the balance by ear. forget the toys, they might work indoors, or at close range outdoors but not at distance, you don't have enough subwoofer...

Gadget

Oh, and Mr Dra.... maybe you'll get lucky enough to work on a Presonus board sometime soon...it WILL change you...

Dra

8) Make no mistake. I'd love one, but $$ and ROI ...well there would be none. I have 2 paying gigs a year that require my MixWiz... everything else gets the ol' American Audio DJ mixer.

So you see... once discussion starts, I just have better things to do.

DRA

Shanny

Hello again...once again Gadget (and all the other mods) thanks for the info and guidance you provide. Saves one A LOT of time having it all here on the board....

I am going to pose a question that I hope won't come across as completely inane or dumb, but I have to ask it....

As you know, I have the Presonus 16.4.2 mixer (and love it!)... I recently did all the firmware updating so it is all current. As you may know, it now includes a lot of new goodies, namely a 31 band eq for all the mixes, smaart feedback supression, etc etc (and wireless iPad control).... I am using it with the jbl prx 615 and 618 speakers along with the powered jbl 10" eon monitors.... My question is: do I really even need the DRPA+????????? and if so, for what???????? I ask since the speakers have a built in crossover and the board seems to be able to handle everything else (EQ, compression, feedback suppression).....

I use the board and speakers for an acoustic duo or full 4 piece band set up. I have recently used the board, the 615's and 1 sub for the acoustic show outdoors and it sounds awesome.... I didn't even use the DRPA+.... hence my curiosity if I even need the DRPA+

Thanks again for any insight! Much appreciated.

Gadget

Hi,

Good question...complex answer...Maybe it's best if I start with a list and if you have questions you can ask away...

1. Multiple xover types and slopes, the xover in the JBL's is fixed and likely 1st order and as such there is a good chance of unnecessary interaction in the xover region

2. Parametric EQ's, far better in almost EVERY case than Graphic EQ's (especially helpful for monitor duty)

3. Delay, this can help align tops and subs if they are in disparate locations

4. Compression and limiting (which you have on the board but the board comps are different, much less control than the driverack has

5. Switches that allow you to shut off the individual components for comparisons sake and tuning

6. With Xovers you have HPF and LPF which can limit the frequency range of the speaker and help with feedback, and interactions with boundaries and other sonic anomalies.

7. tools to help when you get into difficult rooms (far more common than you might realize, including auto EQ for flattening the response so you can SEE what a room is doing to your response)

Shanny

Well, once again Gadget, THANK YOU for informative reply! (I apologize for taking so long to send my thanks)

Again you have provided me valuable insight as to the use of the DRPA+. I am going to keep experimenting and dialing things in and use the functions you have suggested... I am sure I'll be back with more questions!!

Thanks again....

Shanny