Setting up 2-way, 3-way with mono sub (DriveRack PA)
twinspindj
Posts: 73
:? Hello Gadget.
I’m a long standing “lurker� and user of a Driverack PA. You’ve tried to help me in years past to no avail because I am a very non-technical guy when talking about HP (high pass filters) LP (low pass filters) and setting PEQ, etc.
I have been using a custom Wizard setup for 2-way with mono sub for a few years. I do alright as far as sound and feedback go, although I’m sure the sound could be improved upon. Since all of my speakers and subwoofer are Active, I’ve managed pretty well without setting cross-over of LF and HP filters.
Perhaps you would offer some “settings� guidance for two individual setups. One will be a two-way w/mono sub and the other three-way w/mono sub. The two-way w/mono sub is what I consider my “main� system (Yorkville NX 750PB Mains and Elite LS801PB Sub) for 60% of my gigs (100-200 people). Currently, for larger spaced events with more people (300 – 500), I’d like to add a second pair of Mains (RCF 200A) to the “main� system, and make it a 3-way: High (RCF’s 12�), Mid (Yorkville NX 750’s 15�), Low (Yorkville Elite 801P 18� subwoofer).
RCF 200A (Active) 2-Way
Frequency: 55-20k Hz
Crossover @ 18K Hz / 24 db Octive
12� woofer @ LF @ 120 Watt, musical 240 W.
1� Compression Loaded horn @ HF 40 Watt, musical 80 W.
Max sound pressure: 118 db / 121 db peak power
Yorkville NX 750PB (Active) 2-way
Frequency: 50-26K Hz.
Crossover @ 1400 Hz
Driver Configuration: 15� / 1.5�
15� Woofer @ LF 650 Watt
HF @ 100 Watt
Internal EQ button: 100 Hz HP Filter (LF Rolloff) 40 Hz.
Max db: 127
Yorkville Elite LS801PB (Active) 18� subwoofer
Frequency: 45-150 Hz.
LF Driver: Single 18� w/ 4� voice coil
Program Power: 1500 watts
Max SPL (db): 134
Rear Horn Loaded Subwoofer
Your assistance with input for settings, LP/HF filtering and EQ for both setups would be appreciated.
I have never done an auto EQ procedure using the ECM 8000 measurement mic.
Old Dog…new tricks…does not compute well.
I’m a long standing “lurker� and user of a Driverack PA. You’ve tried to help me in years past to no avail because I am a very non-technical guy when talking about HP (high pass filters) LP (low pass filters) and setting PEQ, etc.
I have been using a custom Wizard setup for 2-way with mono sub for a few years. I do alright as far as sound and feedback go, although I’m sure the sound could be improved upon. Since all of my speakers and subwoofer are Active, I’ve managed pretty well without setting cross-over of LF and HP filters.
Perhaps you would offer some “settings� guidance for two individual setups. One will be a two-way w/mono sub and the other three-way w/mono sub. The two-way w/mono sub is what I consider my “main� system (Yorkville NX 750PB Mains and Elite LS801PB Sub) for 60% of my gigs (100-200 people). Currently, for larger spaced events with more people (300 – 500), I’d like to add a second pair of Mains (RCF 200A) to the “main� system, and make it a 3-way: High (RCF’s 12�), Mid (Yorkville NX 750’s 15�), Low (Yorkville Elite 801P 18� subwoofer).
RCF 200A (Active) 2-Way
Frequency: 55-20k Hz
Crossover @ 18K Hz / 24 db Octive
12� woofer @ LF @ 120 Watt, musical 240 W.
1� Compression Loaded horn @ HF 40 Watt, musical 80 W.
Max sound pressure: 118 db / 121 db peak power
Yorkville NX 750PB (Active) 2-way
Frequency: 50-26K Hz.
Crossover @ 1400 Hz
Driver Configuration: 15� / 1.5�
15� Woofer @ LF 650 Watt
HF @ 100 Watt
Internal EQ button: 100 Hz HP Filter (LF Rolloff) 40 Hz.
Max db: 127
Yorkville Elite LS801PB (Active) 18� subwoofer
Frequency: 45-150 Hz.
LF Driver: Single 18� w/ 4� voice coil
Program Power: 1500 watts
Max SPL (db): 134
Rear Horn Loaded Subwoofer
Your assistance with input for settings, LP/HF filtering and EQ for both setups would be appreciated.
I have never done an auto EQ procedure using the ECM 8000 measurement mic.
Old Dog…new tricks…does not compute well.
0
Comments
No problem, we'll get this sorted out. I was old school till I ran into the driverack, now I'm an anidigital freq
Ok, so if you need to have help with the "concepts" of parametric EQ's I have an article in the FAQ's:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2324
that goes a long way to de-mystifing them. The thing about problem frequencies is they never seem to fall on ISO centers (those available on a GEQ...)
Now look at the description there of a Low shelf filter, that is essentially what the Crossover is doing, the frequency we choose is the KNEE or point where the frequency starts to fall off...and the slope is how FAST the frequency falls off. KNOW THIS... once a sound is about 3-4 dB below the rest it's pretty much inaudible...something 10dB down is REALLY GONE!!! :shock:
So.. now the BIG question... what EXACTLY do you intend to do with 2 sets of dissimilar tops??? because when to divergent speaker types cover the same area all manner of sonic chaos happens...I can easily give you setups for 2 sets of tops and a sub but where the high frequencies intersect in the coverage there will be audible cancellations and phasing. You don't have enough delay to make delay towers out of them (you only have about 10 feet...)
Realistically the woofer in the top speakers is the determining factor in the choosing of the xover frequency... THAT and the power available... the smaller the woofer, the higher the xover frequency... the LESS power available to the tops... the higher the xover frequency...
There is a point where some subs become honky sounding, especially horn loaded subs...
When choosing a crossover point for the subs/tops it is a VERY good idea to choose the same type/slope for adjacent crossovers.
So with that in mind a 15 in with loads of power and at least 3" voice coil can be crossed over as low as the 3dB down point (a published spec on good speakers) of the tops...probably a good idea to go a bit higher...and I personally don't like to cross over on top of the one device that is a single, fixed low frequency instrument... the kick drum. The first harmonic is generally 75-85hz... give or take...other than that, you can try a bunch to see what works for you.
I have a lot of success (myself) and suggesting this for others as well... with 95-100 hz and 118hz for 12" and 15" tops, using the LR 24 filter type. This is because the LR filter type is a very symmetric filter that has a minimum of affect on the overall phase response of the signal...this holds true with parametric EQ's in general, where LESS equalization equates to better sound!
If your going to use 2 different tops, in the system, and cover different area's, if the tops can reproduce the same frequencies set them up the same, thats what I would suggest for you. set the mid outs to 100/118hz to out (that means raise the midrange LPF to as high as it will go) LR24... set the high out for the same 100/118hz LR24 (the High outs have NO LPF to worry about)
Ok that's enough to digest for now...let us know how your doing...
Gadget, thanks for the detailed response. I will attempt to digest what you have stated over the next few days and then reply back.
Regarding your reply in Blue:
My intention is to use a 3-way system for the larger events. I'd like to use the RCF's as the High, Yorkville's as the Mids, and Yorkville sub as the low. I was wondering if that could be done effectively.
In the past, I have placed the RCF's on spkr stands next to each York Main. The RCF's 12" would be raised to a point where it is adjacent to where the Yorkville's Horn and Woofer divide. I would play a song with the NX750 just shy of dance floor sound level (sub not on yet nor are the RCFs). I did push in the Yorkville NX750's 100 Hz button so low end is reduced (sub will pick that up). Then I would raise the volume on the back of the of the RCF so that it matches (blends) with the Yorks. Keep in mind that the RCF is much more efficient than the York tops, so it doesn't take that much volume to match the output of the Yorks at that point.
Now that I have the Yorks and RCFs blended, I power up the subwoofer and raise the volume until I have the low end working with the the York/RCF tops for the sound I am looking for. And that's where I leave the settings. Then I drop the volume master slider down to cocktail/dinner music level.
When dancing begins I increase the volume to the level that was set during sound check; increasing the volume master when necessary, but all the while checking the RCF Protection Lights. I don't want to blow those smaller speakers.
On occasion, when the room is wider (left to right), I will angle the RCF's more toward the sides vs. straight ahead on the dance floor. The Yorkville tops are angled toward the opposite corner of the dance floor.
Does any of this make sense to you? I do check the dance floor and walk around the room and modify the speaker angles when necessary to give the room a more overall quality sound.
Be back in a few days.
One thing we need to clear up here... the High outs (the Yorkies?) are fullrange (in this case highpassed @ 100 hz LR24), AND the Mid outs (RCF's) Are FULLRANGE as well (highpassed @ 100hz LR24)... there is no High, Mid and Low here.. there is High, High and low...
A matter of semantics..
Ok?
OK. Then I guess I will look at the best crossover settings for each type of setup; Yorks (w/sub) and Yorks & RCFs w/ sub.
I've got some reading to do, as stated previously.
BTW, any comment on my "setup" procedure using the combined speakers (Yorks & RCF)?
Thanks for your keen observations.
I did find some intereting reading on the live sound category in the forums, but have not found your post.
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2324
So were you talking about using a fullrange speaker and only having one put out only the highs, and another only the mids?
No problem. Interesting reading on PreSonus. Helps to cross reference information.
Yes, that was the concept--Yorkville NX750P's for Mids and RCF ART200A's for the Highs...and the LS801P for the Low.
That said, put the RCF on the high outs and raise the HPF to the (and this is what I think would work best) the crossover frequency of the RCF I suspect about 2000hz LR24(this way the RCF will supply only the HORN related audio)
Place the NS on the mid outs, set the HPF to 118hz LR24 and the the LPF @ 1.8khz LR24 (this way the midrange is coming from the NS and HOPEFULLY the xover frequency of those is 1.8khz as well...because 1.4k is VERY low for a 1" exit 1.5" diaphragm...I know I read the specs too but just sayin... :? )
NOTE: what will happen, even if the RCF were to be placed on top of the NS, the distance from the woofer to the horn is now so great that they will not couple at all and will sound seem fractured...and as you move across the front of the speakers there will be phasing and cancellations and holes in the sound...Even though you have chosen the crossover point of the 2 different speakers (I suppose you could open them up and disconnect the component not used but my guess is you really aren't "dieing" to do that
My guess is this little diatribe has somewhat soured your desire to go this route, but hey, doesn't cost anything to try right... 8)
So if you like the RCF high end why not just use them instead of the NS?? I would think the 12" mid would sound better, although the plastic box isn't as good as the NS wood enclosure...
Ok, so what was it you found interesting about the Presonus site?
Ok, so what was it you found interesting about the Presonus site?"
Gadget...you do have a point that the RCF's 12" do sound better. The NX750's are plastic box.
The issue is that the RCF 200A's are only combined total of (Low-120/Hi-60 watt). I would think that they would reach the "clip" zone very quickly and I might just blow them, since the sub is 18" 1500 watt.
Besides, what size venue and number of people would the RCF's be suited for? :?:
As for the PreSonus forum, I found several Posts in the Live Sound category that were interesting reading. One, where you defended the dbx DriveRack Pa (11/9/12). Another, "Advantages of 3-Way Speakers". Before I settled for the Yorkville NX750 I had been looking at the Yorkville Unity U15P. Wanted it but decided it would be too heavy to lift on to spkr stands @ 90+ lbs. If I had it to do all ver again, I would have gotten the U15P's...and either crank stands or "air-lift" stand.
The other article, Powered vs. Passive Speakers (12/17/11), was interesting.
I started from page 1 and scanned each page to see if YOUR post was among them and came across others that were interesting. I'm going back to look at more when I have the time.
The article with the correct link helped somewhat. I'm still a "hands-on" learner until I have read and re-read things over and over. I have found due to the lack of my tech knowledge base that reading several articles on the same subject matter does help.
Hope your Thanksgiving was enjoyable.