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Setting up Delay for FOH and Sub Question - Please Help
MrM45
Posts: 17
My room set up is sorta unique. Not necessarily good or bad, just unique - and hard to mix (you can see a 3D rendering of the room in the 2nd post last pic drawing below). There really is no other location to place the sub then where i have it. All mains are permanently mounted. I am wanting to know now after using the 260 for about 2 years how to set up the delay properly or if I have it set near correct. We are a 3 instrument band (key/drum/guitar) with 5 vocals
Here is my setup: - PICS BELOW (and each speaker has a link to it's manufacture source page)
Sub: Grund Audio 18" slant mount design with a QSC mono 1000 watt amp
- Sub is against the back wall on center stage and facing straight up standing on end (the grill faces the ceiling)
- it can be set down so it faces grill forward, but seems to get a tighter/punchier bass facing up with the "top" of the sub (most of the surface of the box) against the wall
1st Main Cluster: 1 Renkus-Heinz CFX121 (center of the cluster) / 2 Renkus-Heinz CFX 81 (left and right in cluster)
- This is an exploded cluster mounted in the ceiling with each box about 28" apart
- Center 12" is pointed down the middle / L & R 8" are aimed at about 35* off center to fill the sides of the room
- This first cluster is 14.5' in front of the sub measure from the center of the sub cone to the center of the 12" FOH cone
- The Cluster is about 8 ft above the top of the sub (remember the sub is set on end with the grill facing up)
2nd "FOH Main" Fills are a pair of Renkus-Heinz CFX 61s mounted halfway back.
- These are used as Fills. The room begins with a Cathedral ceiling for the first half and then drops to a flat 8" ceiling for the the back half. Without the fills the back sounds lifeless.
- The fills are about 25 ft apart mounted in the front corners of the flat ceiling of this "overflow" section.
- These fills are 36 ft from the cone of the sub to the cone plane of the fills.
Here is how I currently have the delays set.
Using the feet setting in the 260's 6 channel delay section (yes I have the GUI interface for computer set up)
- Sub Delayed 0 ft
- FOH Main 1st cluster Delayed 14.5 ft
- Fills Delayed 36 ft
Is this anywhere close to correct? In this setting using just the linear 14.5 ft and 36 ft I have not compensated / added in for the height distances between the FOH and the sub ... but I thought these numbers would be a good starting place.
I just this week started to try this delay setting. Before I had the FOH and the sub set to 0 ft and the Fills delayed 21.5 ft behind the FOH Mains. A snare rim shot with this set up was very tight with delay on and sounds like we have reverb on with the delay off. But I wondered about the sub being 14.5 ft behind the FOH Mains, but never did any delay between FOH and Sub.
I was listening to some programed music a few weeks ago and noticed it sounded out of time. Like the bass thump was lagging behind the music as I sat at the mixer in the back of the room. I tried the setting above and it seemed to tighten everything up.
Thoughts? How should these delays be set? Any Suggestions about how to Orient the Sub for better response than to have it setting on end with the grill facing up (not pictured)?
Some pics of the set up below. Sub in pics is setting down with the grill facing forward.
Here is my setup: - PICS BELOW (and each speaker has a link to it's manufacture source page)
Sub: Grund Audio 18" slant mount design with a QSC mono 1000 watt amp
- Sub is against the back wall on center stage and facing straight up standing on end (the grill faces the ceiling)
- it can be set down so it faces grill forward, but seems to get a tighter/punchier bass facing up with the "top" of the sub (most of the surface of the box) against the wall
1st Main Cluster: 1 Renkus-Heinz CFX121 (center of the cluster) / 2 Renkus-Heinz CFX 81 (left and right in cluster)
- This is an exploded cluster mounted in the ceiling with each box about 28" apart
- Center 12" is pointed down the middle / L & R 8" are aimed at about 35* off center to fill the sides of the room
- This first cluster is 14.5' in front of the sub measure from the center of the sub cone to the center of the 12" FOH cone
- The Cluster is about 8 ft above the top of the sub (remember the sub is set on end with the grill facing up)
2nd "FOH Main" Fills are a pair of Renkus-Heinz CFX 61s mounted halfway back.
- These are used as Fills. The room begins with a Cathedral ceiling for the first half and then drops to a flat 8" ceiling for the the back half. Without the fills the back sounds lifeless.
- The fills are about 25 ft apart mounted in the front corners of the flat ceiling of this "overflow" section.
- These fills are 36 ft from the cone of the sub to the cone plane of the fills.
Here is how I currently have the delays set.
Using the feet setting in the 260's 6 channel delay section (yes I have the GUI interface for computer set up)
- Sub Delayed 0 ft
- FOH Main 1st cluster Delayed 14.5 ft
- Fills Delayed 36 ft
Is this anywhere close to correct? In this setting using just the linear 14.5 ft and 36 ft I have not compensated / added in for the height distances between the FOH and the sub ... but I thought these numbers would be a good starting place.
I just this week started to try this delay setting. Before I had the FOH and the sub set to 0 ft and the Fills delayed 21.5 ft behind the FOH Mains. A snare rim shot with this set up was very tight with delay on and sounds like we have reverb on with the delay off. But I wondered about the sub being 14.5 ft behind the FOH Mains, but never did any delay between FOH and Sub.
I was listening to some programed music a few weeks ago and noticed it sounded out of time. Like the bass thump was lagging behind the music as I sat at the mixer in the back of the room. I tried the setting above and it seemed to tighten everything up.
Thoughts? How should these delays be set? Any Suggestions about how to Orient the Sub for better response than to have it setting on end with the grill facing up (not pictured)?
Some pics of the set up below. Sub in pics is setting down with the grill facing forward.
0
Comments
The other pics are drawings the room dimensions front to back (speakers are not the final set up) and the final drawing is the EASE design for the exploded cluster.
Yes and you have already accomplished "close"
Your statement is basically correct....you can delay to only to one point in space and time. This is why it is important to pick the correct point to delay to. You are delaying speaker to speaker. Maybe try delaying speaker to center of listening area and include elevation. Keep in mind you have 6 listening areas separated by isles. There are compromises to be made.
So are you saying try measuring from the speaker of the FOH to the center of the listen area ... or measure for the speaker of the Sub to the center of the listening area. Not sure using this idea how to actually get the measurement to enter in to the DR 260 and what speakers would actually be delayed then. Can you expand a little on this idea. Sorry I am not connecting the dots.
I am going to attempt to explain this with fictional locations and distances...I am NOT suggesting you actually align to the location I choose as an example.
OK the example location is going to be center at the very back of the room...you are standing at the back of the room facing the pulpit and the arc of 3 speakers. Measure from the center speaker in the arc to your location at the back of the room. Lets say you come up with 50'. Now look to your right and you will see the delay speaker mounted on the side wall. Measure from the delay speaker to your location at the back of the room. Lets say you come up with 30'. Subtract 30 from 50 and you come up with 20' of delay to add to the delay speakers in order to have both speakers arrive at your location at the back of the room at the same time. These two speakers are now aligned at that location.
Now it's just a matter of selecting some useful locations for your actual alignment