Box Tuning Ideas for Renkus-Heinz CFX series

MrM45

Any ideas where to start with a good parameteric setting for Renkus-Heinz CFX series boxes and a Grund Audio Sub.

CFX 121 - 12" 2-way
http://www.renkus-heinz.com/loudspeaker ... fx121.html

CFX 81 - 8" 2-way
http://www.renkus-heinz.com/loudspeaker ... cfx81.html

CFX 61 - 6" 2-way
http://www.renkus-heinz.com/loudspeaker ... cfx61.html

Grund Audio 18" sub
http://www.grundorf.com/index.php?Type= ... T-LPB-18CX

MrM45

Here is my complete system set up with location of each speaker, Amp type and power to each speaker.

Gadget

Sorry, I just can't imagine anyone here having those exact speakers, and having tunings for a 260 PEQ on a 3 different type speaker system...

I'm not trying to burst your bubble here but this stuff is so specific to your application that we can guide you to the answers as best we can from afar, but tuning for your room without BEING there is like trying to hit a fly with a slingshot...

I suspect that the location of the subs and trying to back up the mains to them will irrecoverably fracture the sound... You will effectively be backing the RH to the back of the stage... the pastors message will pass him after he has spoken it like it bounced off a wall, but will be coming from behind him...

The cluster is perhaps badly positioned, since coupling happens 1/4 wavelength of the lowest frequency you want to couple at, and pattern control is at stake as well as intelligibility and coverage.

The higher the frequency the greater affect it will have the closer the HF devices are together, and the greater the pattern control (not overlapping horizontal coverage) conversely, as they move apart the coupling falls apart, the pattern control degrades, and the HF clarity is spotty and faltering/fluctuating as you move across the sound stage indicating that there is cancellations, and interactions where the patterns intersect..

I need to think about this some more...

Dennis

Gadget wrote:

I suspect that the location of the subs and trying to back up the mains to them will irrecoverably fracture the sound... You will effectively be backing the RH to the back of the stage... the pastors message will pass him after he has spoken it like it bounced off a wall, but will be coming from behind him...

I am not defending this system design...I don't like it but how much difference is there between backing up the mains to his sub location or backing up the mains to the backline? Delaying to the backline is an accepted practice.

Gadget

Hi Dennis..
Your right of course Dennis, and it is only under 10ms of delay, AND the speakers are in front of the speaker in most instances, but if he's anything like the last preacher I worked on a system for, and runs around out front of the speakers it might get kinda difficult for him. It is said the human ear can detect delays under 2ms... and greater than 3dB.

BTW for those that don't know Dennis tunes systems for a living and he knows of what he speaks, granted, usually much BIGGER systems in FAR bigger rooms...

Dennis

Gadget wrote:

but if he's anything like the last preacher I worked on a system for, and runs around out front of the speakers it might get kinda difficult for him.

If preacher is going to run around in front of the speakers with an earset or lav, I feel the delay is appropriate punishment....uncomfortable but not a show stopper.

Gadget

BAHahaha.. too true... you know it's gonna be a Lav right? :?

Gadget

I used the Grund 2X12" "subs"... biggest piece of crap I have EVER seen! They SUCKED so bad if a helicopter flew over them it would loose BIG altitude suddenly

MrM45

Thanks for the feed back. I am also posting and conversing with Mr. Gadget over in a thread about auto EQ and I guess that would be the best way to go about getting even close to tuning these boxes and setting then in the parametrics.

For a pretty decent shot of our front cluster and the location of the sub, see this thread that I started a few days ago about delay
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3220

The sub is actually 12-14 directly behind the pastor/speaker, center stage. The main cluster is directly of the podium and about 1.5 foot in front.

I was getting a lot of weird bass patterns until I tried the delay set up mentioned in the forum thread linked above. But it has really cleared things up to have tried those delays. Use to be, in the booth on the back wall you were boomed out, but set on set out and the bass was gone. it reappeared as a center channel right down the middle of the room and it also stacked up in the corners at mid room. Now the boom on the wall is gone and the stack in the corners is diminished. Bass is pretty even throughout the room.

You are right (in a way) about the Grund Audio sub. It is a very well built cab, and the drivers seems very solid, but it just does not sound quite right. It just does not produce a bass that you can feel in your chest, but maybe I am expecting too much from a single 18 and only 1200 watts max. But we had an old JBL loaned to use as this system was being set up and it really did not sound any better, in some ways worse. We are just really working with a rough design in rooms. (see the pics at the link above)

The FOH center cluster was designed with an EASE drawing and really was the only alternative we had given the room and odd low ceiling other that mounting them on the side walls ... where the already were (and sound horrible)

MrM45

Gadget wrote:

I used the Grund 2X12" "subs"... biggest piece of crap I have EVER seen! They SUCKED so bad if a helicopter flew over them it would loose BIG altitude suddenly

Wondering, what was it you did not like about the Grund? I might be due for an up grade, its just that we are so totally limited on location. Where we have it is about the only place it can be. (which pretty much was the reason it was selected. the foot print was very low profile)

Gadget

There were 2 at the venue and 3 grund 12" 2 way powered plastic boxes to work with... the subs had 3450 watts so enough power, in fact the subs would FART loudly when pushed at all...and I had them highpassed @ just under 50hz and both in one location (coupled) and COULD NOT GET ANY meaningful low end out of them..no bass guitar and the kick sound was pitiful!

Now this was a SMALL bar with a 95 dBspl limit over a 15 minute period.. so almost any sub should have been able to do the job...it would typically go from NO bass to farting loudly... JUNK!

I took them home and tried them out but the speakers are crap and the box design doesn't work with the speaker... I was going to try ANY other 12" driver in them but simply lost interest... bad design, bad speakers..