outdoor auto eq question
recovery
Posts: 15
Hello, I am way new to everything on this forum, but have been reading as much as I can. Could I get a link to the "outdoor auto eq method" .....I have DRPA+....I have accepted the fact that this thing will help help me achieve my goal of having a monster pa for my kickass weekend warrior metal band, but it is not as easy as rolling in to my local sports bar, and cranking up the pink noise.... I get it , have read a lot of "start here" topics, and am ready for the work.
If I am understanding correctly x-over points, and gain structure need to be set first, and this will give me a flat reference point to tweak at the gig. To recap.....I am just a guitar player who has to also take care of the the sound, and lights, training my wife to run the board, I will be asking a lot of crazy questions. Today I just need a solid link. The search function leads me to a lot of posts where the auto eq is in progress.
Thanks
If I am understanding correctly x-over points, and gain structure need to be set first, and this will give me a flat reference point to tweak at the gig. To recap.....I am just a guitar player who has to also take care of the the sound, and lights, training my wife to run the board, I will be asking a lot of crazy questions. Today I just need a solid link. The search function leads me to a lot of posts where the auto eq is in progress.
Thanks
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Comments
4 Peavey SP2
4 Yorkville LS801
Basic split stacks. 2 over 2 per side.
Set up a single 2 over 2 in a wide open area. No wind if possible. If there are structures any where, make sure that you position the setup and mic so that they divert the sound away, not slap it back towards the mic.
Mic on stand, 10 to 25 ft from speakers. Point the mic at the speakers between the horn and low frequency driver of the top cab.
You should establish a x-over point and set up gain structure before starting. Go ahead and perform the balancing part before continuing. I am flying blind here, because I don't have a +, but if it tells you to turn up an amp, turn the other one down.
Proceed with the auto EQ now.
Select the Flat response.
Start with a Low precision pass.
When done, look at the GEQ and determine trends and groupings. right down EVERY + & - (graph paper works great for this). We'll take this real slow. Pick one group. Let's say that 2K is +2db, 2.5K is +3bd, 3.15k is +4db, 4k is +3db, and 5k is +2db. You have a nice little bell curve peak, centered at 4K. Go into the PEQ section and set the high output to Bell. Pick one of the 3 available (I like to use them in order (1-lowest, 2-middle, 3-highest)). Let use #3. Go ahead and set the gain to +4db. Because we are making educated guesses, and using trial & adjust, pick a Q in the middle. You see the width of the bell change at you select different Q's. Visually make an educated guess. Note the center frequency, boost/cut, and Q on your paper for your next chart results. Make sure the PEQ is ON. Flatten the GEQ (there is a selection to do this.). Re-run the Auto-EQ. What happened? Was the Q to narrow? Too wide? Too much boost? etc
Continue until you are happy with the results then move on to the next group. Groups that dip next to groups that peak are more difficult and one sided bells (shallow curve on one side and steep on the other) are more difficult yet. (Hint: Overlapping boost and cut PEQ's, usually a wide Q next to a narrow Q) When you get get as flat as you can, you can move up to med or high precision to check for fine tuning.
Remember that you have 3 for the high output and 2 for the other 2, so tackle the worst first.
DRA
Here's my setup:
Stereo tops mono sub (2x3)
Mackie ProFX22
DRPA+
Peavey 4C 2x250 tops (stereo)
Peavey 8.5C 550x2 subs (bridged mono)
Seismic FL-155P tops
JBL jrx118S sub (mono)
Siesmic Audio LE-3000 2x700 monitors, stereo, 2 monitor mixes.
4 -12'' stage monitors (mixed-peavey(1), community(1) ,seismic(2)
Gain structure has been set, but I have doubts that I may have set amps too low (less than 50%)
In setup, it never gave me option of bridged amp for sub... I selected custom for amps.
x-over HPF Sub 45 BW 18 (db 0)... LPf 118 LR 24 (db 0).....
The (db 0) thing is what I set it before I run pink noise, anytime I have messed with it, those levels change after auto balance.
This is what I have now, and have gigged with already. I will upgrade power, and add another sub next.
The "amps set too low" thing... If you followed the procedure in the "Start here & FAQ" section, you are good to go. Assuming that you did, and with the limiters off, you should be clipping the amps (unless you turned one down to balance) when you push the mixer's masters into the red.
In case you have not followed the procedure, here is the excerpt.
(Here is the entire thing... viewtopic.php?f=61&t=959 )
Gain Structure...
note: the below was written PRE PA+ which is covered above... but the principles work well with the PA+ as well (I generally skip the auto balance step and use this method...
1. Turn amplifier(s) attenuators all of the way down to zero (fully counter clockwise), disable amplifier(s) clip limiters (if used), and disconnect the speaker cables.
2. Make sure all DriveRack dynamic processors like GEQ, Compressor, limiters, PEQ, AFS, SubSynth, etc., are disabled. We will set those things after we are roughed in...
3. Play pink noise through one of input channels of the mixer because it's consistent dynamically...(equal energy to all frequencies with a crest factor that is consistent across the full spectrum)
Note: The Binkster CD is no longer online but here is a cool tool you can download for free and play on your computer, you should be able to record a cd from this as well, they have provided a burner as well...
http://www.nch.com.au/tonegen/index.html
Click on the [Download] link it's free..
4. Set the mixer input channel fader (with pink noise) at \"unity\" (0dB). Also zero the EQ.
5. Disable the AFL(s) (after fader listen) on the mixers master output channel(s) and enable the PFL (pre fader listen) on the mixer input channel (with pink noise). If your mixer does not have these features just make sure you have no clipping and sufficient signal to not run into signal to noise problems.
6. Turn up the mixer input channel gain trim pot (with pink noise) until the meter bounces in the yellow at least 6dB below clipping. MAKE SURE THERE IS NO CLIPPING! (actually anything over 0 VU will be fine)
Note: If your mixer doesn't have PFL simply set the input gain just below the point where the channel \"clip light\" barely (occasionally) bounces on.
7. Disable the PFL on the mixer input channel and enable the AFL(s) on the mixer master output channel(s). Again if you don't have these features just make sure that your output meters are just at the clip point.
8. Slide your mixer's master fader(s) up until meter is just barely (occasionally) bounces in the red at clipping.
9. With the DriveWare GUI open (DR260) the DriveRack panel meter and then one of the mixer input dialogs (click on the \"M\"). Put the master fader at “unity� (0dB). Watch the DriveRack’s panel meter and pull the input fader up or down until the output meters are bouncing in the yellow about 3dB just below clipping. Absolutely no clipping (red) on the DriveRack’s input or output panel meters!
If you are using a DRPA you have a button on the back that sets the input sensitivity to +4db (pro level) or -10 (consumer level) if the meters on the mixer are at just clipping and your using +4 and the meters on the Driverack are anywhere above the 0vu but below the clip light your fine... there is no input mixer to adjust... If the signal is low try the -10 setting and see if that gets you to a more appropriate setting.
10. Click on the other channel’s mixer input dialog (click on the “M�), set the master fader at “unity� and put the input fader at the very same location as the previous channel.
In the DRPA, output levels are controlled by the crossover gain... this means that if your at 0db as we discussed earlier the output meters will be showing the output gain... as long as they show a decent signal this is fine... remember this is all in the digital domain so signal to noise is not as big a problem as in analog circuits... try adjusting the amps before you change the gain of the crossovers, if you cannot get the amps to clip, or your amp sensitivity is perceived to be too high... then adjust the crossover gains...
11. Make sure all speakers are DISCONNECTED FROM THE AMPS..(unplug speakers as proscribed in step #1).. modern amps have open circuit protection) Turn up the amplifier gain trim pot (clockwise) until the amplifiers red clip light barely bounces on.
12. Turn back the amplifier gain trim pot (counter clockwise) about 3dB to 4dB from the clip position. Mark this position. This position provides approximately 3 to 4dB of headroom before clipping. This is the highest the pots should ever be turned...More headroom can be achieved here by turning DOWN the control but it is NEVER to be turned up past this point!
13. Repeat steps 11 and 12 for all amplifier(s) channels driven by the DriveRack. Return the master faders on the mixer to -0- . Plug the speakers back in.
Now we have all the equipment talking the same language.. but we haven't balanced the system yet... it's most likely that one set of speakers will be louder than the other so we need to balance them before we move on... it's a good bet that the subs will be the quietest since they require the most power... put some good full range music on your system.. I like Steely Dan, Toto, Dread Zeppelin, ETC and set the input fader on the input channel on the design center( unity gain point) (this gives the best signal to noise in the analog domain) again press the PFL button and view the output meters and verify that the signal is well below clipping but above or about 0vu.. those lucky enough to have channel meters on each strip a yellow indication is acceptable..if only a two light LED is available turn up till red then turn down below clip point.. disable PFL. Turn master fader up till the system comes to life and if the tops are much louder than the subs... turn the tops amp down... get a good balance and turn the system up till near performance volume and assure it still sounds balanced...
If you intend to Do an Auto EQ please follow the \"Former forum\" link above and read the \"Tutorials\" section, and Mikey Kovachs user submitted white paper. Maje sure you have a dead flat omni directional mic for the job, like the RTA \"M\" available from DBX or better yet the TR40 by Audix...
Note: If you're planning on setting-up your DriveRack output limiters follow Mr. Dra's \"Super Duper Limiter Procedure\" (below) before going to step 14.
A. Determine the clip point of all amps by setting the gain structure.
B. After turning down the amp and marking the point where the amp stops clipping, turn the amp up to where it clips again.
C. Press the \"Comp / Limiter\" button 2 times to get to the Limiter section.
D. There is a limiter for each x-over section that it set up. For example: 2-way (Hi and lo) has 2 limiters, 3-way (hi, mid, & lo) has 3 limiters. Select the section that needs to be limited (all need to be limited).
E. For the selected output, select Over Easy as on. This gives a softer, less noticeable limiting effect. Select setting 4 as a starting point.
F. Lower the threshold until the amp stops clipping.
G. Return the amp to the previously marked spot.
H. Repeat steps E - G for all output bands.
Note: It is highly recommended to re-check the DriveRacks output limiters if the X-over gains have been changed, or if any \"enhancements\" have beem made using GEQ, PEQ, or Sub-Synth afterwards
Note: The DRPA, unlike the 260, DOES NOT have a brick wall limiter. For example: With a clip point for the amp at +20db and a limiter threshold at +17db and the limiter, depending on the use and setting of the Over Easy, may successfully reduce an output at the limiter section of a +19db input. But, if the signal spikes to +24 db. The limiter may reduce the output by 2 or 3db, but it WILL let pass the remaining peak output, which is well into, and beyond, the clip point of the amp.
Note: The DR260 can be set with a maximum \"Overshoot\". Regardless of the Over Easy setting, if the Limiter threshold is set to +17 db and the amp will clip at +20, the 260 can have an \"Overshoot\" set as 2db (or more). This feature (along with Attack and Hold time settings) will take a +24db signal that will be limited, starting at +17db, then at +19db the 260 slams the door and lets nothing more pass. The amp will never clip, if proper gain structure and limiter setting techniques are observed.
14. Bring mixer's master fader(s) all the way back down to off, re-enable your DriveRack’s dynamic processors, re-enable amplifier(s) clip limiters (if used), and reconnect the speakers.
Note: It is highly recommended to re-check the gain structure and output limiters if the X-over gains have been changed, or if any \"enhancements\" have been made using GEQ, PEQ, or Sub Synth afterwards. It is also recommended to keep the amplifier's clip limiters disabled If using the DriveRack's output limiters.
More to come folks, thanks to Kevin and Dra for their efforts on this work. If you have any corrections, concerns, additions, or comments please feel free to PM me
Now, go to the FAQ section right below this and find out why all this works the way it does...
Here is a good progression of things to read next:
viewtopic.php?t=960
viewtopic.php?t=949
viewtopic.php?t=1617
viewtopic.php?t=1384
Be well, and good luck!
Gadget
__________
DRA
The reason I questioned this was in the Mackie manual, they claim that their clip light is more accurate than others.
Having said that, I had the master bouncing just barley in the red per: instructions. I will continue forward, by the book.
I did set the limiters this way, but they will be off for outdoor eq. What about the levels on the x-over, they should be at zero?
**edit/add**
This is what I was reading that caused me to question the gain setting procedure...
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2689
The topic is open ended, but these are basically the same amps I have, and it is easy to get the clip lights(if that is what they are) on with the "DDT" off. Having used these amps with full range practice pa's, I know they rock past 50%, and sound good all the way up. I am going to let this go, and assume that the levels need to be lower, just like instructions said, but the guitar player in me wants to dime those knobs...lol
DRA
The problem I am having is with the RTA mic. When I run setup, sometimes it works, and other/most times not.
When I run the pink noise I am not given the "set to performance level" prompt no matter how loud I get or how close I put mic to stack. It works sometimes, and I don't know why. I have checked cable, and tested mic, it sounds weak, but works, when I talk into it. Measured 14.5 volts off pins 2 & 3 on DRPA+.....When I called dbx I got the usual troubleshooting tips from one tech, restore factory presets, etc.... The next time I called I was told that choosing custom in the setup was the cause, and just skip balance, and go to next step. That is Auto EQ, and I am not sure if I have a problem or not....BTW I am still gigging every weekend with this rig, so we are learning as we go.
Also...Should I use the compressor or not, I hear different things on this, I am using the limiters, and I set them after I do gain structure per instructions, but they are off for all this auto eq madness. I know I'm getting a little off topic, but I need all the help I can get.
DRA
I have been choosing the the equipment that is listed, and custom for what is not.
Do I benefit by doing this, or is it just the same to choose custom. I understand that a lot of the more technical stuff happens when you biamp a single box, I am not doing that now, but will later on with a set of Madison M3-215's that are too heavy to haul around now.
RTA mic needs to be verified as working first.
DRA
If money was not an issue I believe I would have bought into the marketing, so they got that right.The reality is I am on a working mans budget, and came up on some used deals.
Do you select the gear you have???? ...Just curious.
I would not be here if I was afraid of changing things, but am very much clueless ..lol
How about that compressor?
The "you" was not directed towards you, but a generic inquisitor needing a "do it for you" box.
Yes I did load my amps, but my tops and subs are not in the list (the 260 has not been updated in several years and all my DRPA's are not the "+" version), so I used custom on them.
Compressor in the DRPA. If used at all use very limitedly. Maybe 1:1 or 2:1, soft knee (over easy) with a lower #, no gain increase (or very little), Threshhold set to barely allow activation.) I don't use it. It actually increases the RMS power going to the speakers. You will gain overall volume, but lose the dynamics of live music.
Now I will ask a favor of you.
I would be interested in the results for these set-ups.
Yorkville E12 (passive)> QSC PLX3102
Yorkville LS808 > QSC PLX3602 (stereo)
I would like to know what the suggested:
amp attenuator positions
X-over freq & filter type
output band gains
PEQ settings (won't likely have any, but who knows)
Yorkville E12 (bi-amp)> QSC PLX3102 (on each)
Yorkville LS808 > QSC PLX3602 (stereo)
I would like to know what the suggested:
amp attenuator positions
X-over freq & filter types for all
output band gains
PEQ settings for each band.
The exercise will actually be good for you, plus help me out.
Thanks,
DRA