Brand new user - Need help with new QSC PA

robgoldberg

Hi folks. Brand new to the forum. Looking forward to participating. Let me first say a couple of things: firstly, I have read the manual several time and have read some of the doc on this forum. Secondly, I am a professional keyboard player who also does sound so I am no sound pro by any means.

Here is the gear I have recently purchased:

Behringer X32 mixing console
Behringer S16 digital snake
Two QSC KW122 tops
Two QSC KW181 bottoms
DriveRack PX

I have tried the PX setup wizard multiple times. Several times I tried using the CUSTOM setting for speaker selections. Several times I tried the QSC K12 and QSC KSub selections.

I just don't really seem to know what I'm doing. For one thing, the subs always seem too low when the wizard is finished. I know I can turn them up but I thought the PX was supposed to accurately figure that out for me. And when I look at the EQ settings from the Auto-EQ, it seems the high mid and high end are all turned up (5 consecutive bands), indicating that the tops are not loud enough when the Auto-EQ runs, which seems backwards to my end result of the subs not being loud enough.

* I have the RTA mic on a stand about 20 feet from the system in my living room centered between the stacks at about ear level
* I have the subs on the floor about 10-12 feet apart with the tops mounted on poles facing directly forward.

I need help knowing what I might be doing wrong in the setup for running the wizard and actually running it. I will admit that the EQ of the system is way better after the wizard runs than it is without it so that's a good start. But the tops seem a little shrill and the subs seem to need to be turned up, even though the auto balancing of the system didn't seem to think so.

Can you 'experts' please help me to know how to get the most out of my new system. I don't know how to get it all set up properly and I want to learn how to really use the PX to maximize the quality of the system. And please don't tell me to get a 260 because I am not going to spend $1000 on that particular piece. I am done spending money for now. All of the gear I have purchased plus the Well Cargo 5x8 trailer I bought to transport it with my keyboard gear, has cost me $12K.

Thanks ............ I sincerely appreciate any help you are all willing to give me to get me up to speed ......... Rob

Dra

A 260 is only $750, but I'm not telling you to buy one by saying that.
Now onto your problem. The manual is your problem. Any reading here and you will see that the "centered, ear level, 20 ft back" is just wrong. How many gigs do you play in your living room? Well if you do gig there, the procedure would be to set up one top and one sub. Set the mic on a folded bath towel on the floor (pointing in the direction of the speaker), directly in the line of fire and about half way between the speaker and the back wall. That will get you the most accuracy.

DRA

robgoldberg

Dra, thanks for the quick reply. I am sure I will sound a little dense here but I am still a little confused. No I don't have gigs in my living room but I can't set my system up outside and I can't wait until I have a gig to learn how to use the system.

When you say to put the mic on a bath towel, do you mean just laying it down on the towel? Should it be right at the edge of the towel or in the middle? And pointed directly at the stack, right?

Why only one stack? Will the full wizard run that way? What do I tell the wizard I have?

What about the setting for volume, crossover, etc? Does it make sense to start with the QSC k12 and QSC KSub for my QSC KW speakers or should I use Custom? When I use custom it tells me to set every speaker at 50% (12 o'clock) which on these speakers is 0dB. When I use the K12 and KSub setting it tells me to set them on something like 29% (I'm not at home with the speakers right now). Is there some other preset I should start with?

Sorry I'm struggling a little with my understanding but I figure it's better to admit I am still confused than to act like I'm not and then not know how to use the component properly.

Rob

Dra

robgoldberg wrote:

Dra, thanks for the quick reply. I am sure I will sound a little dense here but I am still a little confused. No I don't have gigs in my living room but I can't set my system up outside and I can't wait until I have a gig to learn how to use the system.For playing purposes? OK.

When you say to put the mic on a bath towel, do you mean just laying it down on the towel? Should it be right at the edge of the towel or in the middle? And pointed directly at the stack, right? Just don't block the capsule with the towel.

Why only one stack? You are wanting the room itself (not the time delay of the second speaker) to give input to the mic.Will the full wizard run that way? You should run stereo (common L&R EQ) and dual mono. That is just too much work and not feasible. What do I tell the wizard I have? It doesn't matter. Custom is fine.

What about the setting for volume, crossover, etc? Does it make sense to start with the QSC k12 and QSC KSub for my QSC KW speakers or should I use Custom? When I use custom it tells me to set every speaker at 50% (12 o'clock) which on these speakers is 0dB. When I use the K12 and KSub setting it tells me to set them on something like 29% (I'm not at home with the speakers right now). Is there some other preset I should start with? I like to set my speaker levels to the level where, with no input, it is satisfactorily quiet. Powered speakers are typically at unity between 11 & 1. Some actually have a unity mark. If yours does use it. (Looks like they are- 0 db.) Then if the tops are louder, turn them down. If the subs are louder, turn them down. You always want to turn DOWN from unity... never UP.
X-over: 100hz LR24 should work nicely. Do you understand the manual for setting these? It is pretty good in that respect.
Sorry I'm struggling a little with my understanding but I figure it's better to admit I am still confused than to act like I'm not and then not know how to use the component properly.

Rob

robgoldberg

Dra, thanks again. I will play with it some more tonight. One more question (for now). In other posts I see recommendations regarding HPF and LPF both. In your post to me you just speak of a crossover frequency and slope. What about other values? Am I not understanding something (likely) ??

Dra

Yes. The 100hz LR24 is the LPF of the sub (the sub will handle its own HPF with its internal DSP) and HPF of the top cabs.

DRA

robgoldberg

I'm sorry guys but I'm just not getting this. To be clear I have a PX version of the DriveRack. I have been told to use one stack and select Stereo for the tops and Dual Mono for the bottoms. So I start the wizard and select stereo for the tops. Then I don't have an actual choice of dual mono. I have mono which seems to indicate one sub and stereo which seems to indicate two subs. So I selected stereo just so it would know I have two subs. How would I select anything else and still have it know there are two subs?

Then I was told to test with just one stack so I only turned on one stack (1 QSC KW122 and 1 QSC KW181). But when the wizard ran it kept trying to balance the two sides (stereo had been selected) and it complained that one side wasn't responding.

So bottom line, I don't understand how I am being told to run this initial setup with my stuff. Would one of you be willing to go into a little more detail specifically for a PX DriveRack, a little more step by step? I am trying to read everything and figure it all out myself but there's just a disconnect somewhere and it's really starting to frustrate me with all this new stuff I have.

Thanks ............. Rob

Dra

robgoldberg wrote:

I'm sorry guys but I'm just not getting this. To be clear I have a PX version of the DriveRack. I have been told to use one stack and select Stereo for the tops and Dual Mono for the bottoms. So I start the wizard and select stereo for the tops. Then I don't have an actual choice of dual mono. I have mono which seems to indicate one sub and stereo which seems to indicate two subs. So I selected stereo just so it would know I have two subs. How would I select anything else and still have it know there are two subs? Sorry I don't have a PX and was going by the set-up process of the PA. I thought there was an option to select a stereo linked EQ.

Then I was told to test with just one stack so I only turned on one stack (1 QSC KW122 and 1 QSC KW181). But when the wizard ran it kept trying to balance the two sides (stereo had been selected) and it complained that one side wasn't responding.

So bottom line, I don't understand how I am being told to run this initial setup with my stuff. Would one of you be willing to go into a little more detail specifically for a PX DriveRack, a little more step by step? I am trying to read everything and figure it all out myself but there's just a disconnect somewhere and it's really starting to frustrate me with all this new stuff I have.

Thanks ............. Rob

Gadget, can you step in here?

robgoldberg

While I wait to see if Gadget can help me out with the process with the PX, here is something I read on the PreSonus forums:

"This is where you will take your QSC stack outside (only one stack -- top & bottom) and run the Auto EQ. You do it outdoors away from as many reflections as possible. Rooms are largely responsible for screwing up sound systems -- so this allows you to get the system by itself so the room isn't adding to the problem.

Run the auto EQ & when you get your result -- look at the bands that are boosted or cut & this gives you an idea of the frequency response of your system. Engage your parametric EQ's and take your graphic readings and transfer them over to the paramteric. Yes -- boost OR cut in the same direction that the graphic did.

Once the parametircs have been adjusted -- zero out the graphic & re-run the auto EQ & you should see the graphic smooth out better that your first run. Take another look and make more adjustments to your parametrics & keep going back and forth until your final pass on the auto EQ shows that the response is smoothed out. It is ok if the low end spectrum is boosted a bit. You will end up adjusting the low end and possibly the top end by ear anyway."

This sounds interesting to me. Does it make sense, essentially to create a preset for your speakers that flattens out the response? I have some questions about that:

1. Which RTA MIC technique should I use outside for this analysis (on a towel 6 or 8 feet from speaker, on stand pointed between woofer and horn on top speaker (how far from speaker))?
2. The process calls for doing this for one stack outside? Should I assume that the other speakers (same exact brand/model) have the same frequency response? There is only one set of PEQ settings on the PX for the tops/bottoms so I am assuming I would have to go with the theory that both tops respond the same and both bottoms respond the same.
3. Are the PEQ setting left alone when you load a preset and run the wizard?
4. Should I run the system with mono sub and daisy chain my two KW181's or set the sub setting on the PX to stereo?
5. The PreSonus thread doesn't state whether you should be using Low Shelf, High Shelf, or Bell for the PEQ's. What should I use if following that process?

Gadget

Hi, Sorry about my absence... but I'm Beta testing Presonus products. Anyway, the driverack has NO IDEA what is attached to it... you could have 1 speaker or 30...So lets put that to rest...

What we're trying to do here is eliminate as many reflections to the mic that could skew the results... IF, you were able to go outside and have a huge field with no trees, or concrete or hard surfaces, then the mic on a stand is fine.

Mono sums the channels together, and it is only available on the subs on the PX..however both outputs are likely live...

Stereo subs can work together very nicely, but there is a LOT to it..

Your best bet is with the top sitting on the sub, and indoors try and get the mic out as far as you can but it must be in the direct field of all the drivers.

The reason we only use one stack is eliminate any additional reflections form 2 sources, and yes we assume similar speakers on both sides...

Mono subs and put together if possible is best for beginner to novice...that way you get 3dB of free power...

Thought you had a Behringer mixer.. I don't understand the Presonus reference...

robgoldberg

can you speak as to whether to use high shelf low shelf or bell on the peq's when setting up the flat response? The presonus reference was just because I found a thread on their forum which talked a little about driverack and qsc speakers.

anyone in the san francisco bay area who would like to make some money helping me get all this going?

Dra

robgoldberg wrote:

can you speak as to whether to use high shelf low shelf or bell on the peq's when setting up the flat response? The presonus reference was just because I found a thread on their forum which talked a little about driverack and qsc speakers.

anyone in the san francisco bay area who would like to make some money helping me get all this going?

Most likely bells, but it will be according to the findings. Presonus? Might have been Gadget. We recommend all the time to do outdoor flattening.

DRA

robgoldberg

OK so I have been playing around a lot and feel less uncomfortable with the PX than before. But I still have a long way to go in my learning curve.

I read the "Read Me First" document and made sure I had good gain structure (I think). I have 2 QSC KW122's and 2 QSC KW181's. They are pretty powerful. The question is this: If I set all the QSC speakers at 0dB unity gain on the speaker, I have to lower the master fader on the mixer quite a bit from 0dB; otherwise everything is WAY too loud. The tops and subs are balanced; everything is just too loud if I try to run the mixer master fader and the speaker amps at 0dB. What is the correct adjustment: Do I run the mixer master fader at 0dB and lower and speaker amp level on all 4 speakers; or do I leave the speakers all at unity gain and just lower the master fader on the mixer until I'm at the desired volume? I am not sure which is the proper way to make the adjustment.

Tomorrow I plan to take one stack outside to do the flattening exercise. I have a couple of questions about that:

1. My back yard is long (like 80 feet) but fairly narrow. If I point the stack the long way there will be a long running fence around 10-12 feet from the speaker running in the same direction as the sound and my house will be around 10-12 feet the other way running in the same direction as the sound. That's the best I can do; the backyard is only about 20-25 feet wide. Will the flattening exercise still be fairly valid? I don't know where else I would take my system to do this test.

2. Which mic placement technique do I use: On a stand or on the ground on a towel?

3. Where exactly do I want the mic facing, relative to the stack?

4. I use a stand for the top. How high off the ground should it be set up outside?

5. I don't have a lot of experience using PEQ's. So the process of interpreting the GEQ result from the Auto-EQ and then transferring that to the PEQ's is a bit fuzzy to me. How do I determine what Q to use? How do I know whether to use High Shelf, Low Shelf, Bell, or HighLowShelf?

I feel like I'm making some progress but for each thing I think I've got the hang of, a bunch more questions come up in my mind. Thanks so much to those who have already answered some of my questions and to those who will be willing to take the time to help me answer the questions in this post.

Rob

Dra

robgoldberg wrote:

OK so I have been playing around a lot and feel less uncomfortable with the PX than before. But I still have a long way to go in my learning curve.

I read the "Read Me First" document and made sure I had good gain structure (I think). I have 2 QSC KW122's and 2 QSC KW181's. They are pretty powerful. The question is this: If I set all the QSC speakers at 0dB unity gain on the speaker, I have to lower the master fader on the mixer quite a bit from 0dB; otherwise everything is WAY too loud. The tops and subs are balanced; everything is just too loud if I try to run the mixer master fader and the speaker amps at 0dB. What is the correct adjustment: Do I run the mixer master fader at 0dB and lower and speaker amp level on all 4 speakers; or do I leave the speakers all at unity gain and just lower the master fader on the mixer until I'm at the desired volume? I am not sure which is the proper way to make the adjustment. Think of the master faders as the gas. Do you drive your car with the pedal to the floor? Can you turn the speakers down to 9 or 10 o'clock? Sure. Run however makes the system the least noisy. Maybe turning down the speakers is the solution for you, because the AFS (feedback module) works best and quickest with a hot signal in the DRPX. But, don't run it so hot that you get even close to clipping the DRPX.

Tomorrow I plan to take one stack outside to do the flattening exercise. I have a couple of questions about that:

1. My back yard is long (like 80 feet) but fairly narrow. If I point the stack the long way there will be a long running fence around 10-12 feet from the speaker running in the same direction as the sound and my house will be around 10-12 feet the other way running in the same direction as the sound. That's the best I can do; the backyard is only about 20-25 feet wide. Will the flattening exercise still be fairly valid? I don't know where else I would take my system to do this test. I assume this fence is solid. Can to get the top speakers above that height. The lower frequencies tend to pass through as opposed to reflecting so I would worry too much. Of course, that means that the mic needs to be higher than the fence as well.

2. Which mic placement technique do I use: On a stand or on the ground on a towel?

3. Where exactly do I want the mic facing, relative to the stack?On axis (pointing at).

4. I use a stand for the top. How high off the ground should it be set up outside? See answer 2. If the sub is light enough, you might consider putting it on a stand as well.

5. I don't have a lot of experience using PEQ's. So the process of interpreting the GEQ result from the Auto-EQ and then transferring that to the PEQ's is a bit fuzzy to me. How do I determine what Q to use? How do I know whether to use High Shelf, Low Shelf, Bell, or HighLowShelf? Trial and error. Test, adjust, and re-test with those setting in place. It would be wise to download the DR 260's driveware (GUI) and play with the PEQ's. You can see the result as you make changes.

I feel like I'm making some progress but for each thing I think I've got the hang of, a bunch more questions come up in my mind. Thanks so much to those who have already [url=answeredhttp://www.dbxpro.com/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&f=63&p=19168#]answeredhttp://www.dbxpro.com/forum/pos ... 3&p=19168#[/url] some of my questions and to those who will be willing to take the time to help me answer the questions in this post.

Rob

robgoldberg

Thanks for the response Dra. Unfortunately my fence is 6 feet tall and built on top of a 4 foot tall retaining wall. There is no way I can get my speaker stands 10-12 feet high. And the subs weigh 88 pounds (QSC KW181) so they're not going on stands either. I guess I will just have to work with what I have unless you have some other suggestion.

I am going to download the 260 GUI software but since it can't talk to my system how is it going to teach me the effects of different settings on the PEQ's? Did you just mean graphically it will show me the effects or am I missing something as to how I can use that software?

My question about speaker height was meant to be more general. In other words I am curious what the proper theory is for determining speaker height at gigs? I have read many theories and don't really know which one to follow.

Rob

Dra

Yes. Graphical representation only.

Any wires (not electrical) over your back yard? Could throw a mic cable over one and hoist it up to a good height. Lay the speaker on its back across two chairs.
:shock: :shock:

DRA

robgoldberg

let me make sure I understand. are suggesting I set the sytem up with top and sub facing straight up instead of across the back yard? seems like that could possibly work. is that what you meant?

Dra

yes.

robgoldberg

Hi everyone. I know this is a very old thread but since I am the one who originally started the thread and since I am now using the same speakers I thought rather than starting yet another thread I would just jump back into this one.

Back several years when I had the PA+ and was asking all these questions, I ended up getting rid of the Driverack.

Now, all this time later, I have actually purchased two PA2's, one to use in my wedding ceremony rig (2 QSC KW122's with no subs) and one in my reception rig (2 QSC KW122's and 2 QSC KW181 subs).

I know it's going to take time for me to acclimate myself to using the Driverack. To be honest the biggest reason I got it was for feedback control. I tried several other devices and I didn't feel they worked that well.

So rather than asking a million questions and getting swamped with great information that will confuse me, I am going to start with only two questions:

1. As I use my big system now, without the Driverack, I set all 4 speakers to 0dB on the speakers (volume knob straight up) and then control everything from my Allen & Health MixWizard 3 mixer. When I start configuring the Driverack for my speakers, which are specifically listed, it tells me to set the KW122's at 19% and the subs at 22%. That seems very low to me but perhaps I don't understand the concept. Can you explain why I would be told to set them so low? What if I change those values when they come up to 50%? What will the Driverack do with that modified value?

2. Currently I use aux controlled subs. This is very useful for me because at different venues I will sometimes get guests complaining that the bass is too loud and I will have to turn it down at least for a while. I am doing weddings (high end DJ / entertainment company) and the guest is always right :-(. When I start using the Driverack with my particular array of speakers, how will I easily control the volume of the subs if I can't be going to the volume knobs on the subs themselves?

Thanks all. I think I'm glad to be back learning to use a Driverack but I know I have a lot to learn to start making them work properly for me. Initially I will have to trust most of the automatic settings until I have time to learn how to fine tune things. But for now some feedback on the above two questions will really help me get started at least using it.

Rob

Dra

1 - try it and prove it out.
2 - Use the x-over gain for the lows. Or the low shelf on the mixer' eq.

DRA

robgoldberg

Hi Dra. Thanks for responding. When you said 'Try it ......' did you mean the values that the PA2 told me to use (19% and 22%) or setting the values to 50% on those screens? I could not find any doc indicating what happens if you change those values. The fact that you are able to change them means to me that something will adjust to the new values but I could not find an explanation of what.

Dra

I assume that the lower settings (19 & 22%) would allow the master board meters to be more in line with actual output. The only problem would be if you CAN'T drive the speakers to limit (not that you want to).

DRA

Krazy B

robgoldberg wrote:

Why only one stack? Will the full wizard run that way? What do I tell the wizard I have?

Rob

I found for Auto EQ that by setting the RTA mic up in front of one stack and turning the other stack down to be a real help for getting a better bottom end.

Since I changed to all digital with a PX Rack and all powered speakers I haven't looked back. I live in a city of only 22000 people and as well as working in our local theatre as the sound board operator I am working 3-4 times a month with three local bands and two venues who have moved form other production companies to me.

Practice with the PX and you will get there. Getting a good sound in your living room is probably a bit unrealistic in my opinion. I was fortunate to learn about the PX in my rehearsal space and now have about 20 venues stored.
.