Monitor questions-Brands vs amp

James85

Hello everyone,
I have been upgrading cabs and subs (SRX/STX) and now I am looking at monitors. I currently run JBL MRX wedges off of XTI 4000 amps. I normally only need three wedges up from (one feed) and a drum monitor. This seems to work ok except when we have touring bands, which is not often. They always want way louder. I am almost always working with low level bands, no riders. It is a personal thing with me. I enjoy developing my skills and giving the local guys sound that is worlds better than they get with VFW hall events or bored club sound guys. The shows range from acoustic (easy to do) to electro-pop with keys and synth to screaming metal. I actually can satisfy the metal guys quite well with the MRXs.

I was looking at old SRX wedges because I like the SRX sound compared to other cabinets I have used. On paper they want a lot of power. I don't know if the XTIs can drive them enough. Which brings up a common question. I know under-powering speakers does not hurt them. But am I really wasting the capabilities of wedges like the SRX and others but not fully driving them? If you know Aged Horse, he always say 500 watts is plenty for any speaker. Just add more speakers if you need it.

On the premise that I am keeping the XTis for now, I am considering a different monitor set up. The MRXs seems to do OK but I am thinking of moving on to four individual feeds. I also know that when guys put their foot on the wedge, like they do, the MRXs tip over or get pushed around.

So. The Tour-X wedges look more stable and monitor like. Haha. They are pretty inexpensive and require low power. I was also looking at the EAW SM129z monitors (almost 2X the cost of the Tour-x). In summary I want to know opinions if it is possible to improve on monitors using the same amps simply by trading up instead of a lateral move. It is difficult to get a read from the pro sound boards. Forget ROI. I get paid very little. It is more of way for me to be involved in the local music community, enjoy a good reputation, strain my back and stay young.

Thanks,
Jim

Dra

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI_3WYHS71c

James85

Oh I have seen this video and really liked how DR tests them out and shows what they can do. I would not hesitate to buy them but I would need at least three and my budget is not up for it right now. I wish I knew a fraction of what Dave Rat knows. Ha-I might actually be able to use only a fraction in my ankle biter gigs. :oops:

jthunderbass

You are more likely to damage speakers by under powering them then over powering them.
A good rule of thumb is 2-4 time power.
Even though Im not a JBL fan I will say this, they do get loud. If you have the option to go EV, I would. I am always mixing on JBL and if I had a choice Id go EV all the way, and never mix on JBL again. I do sound for other people so I get what they give me. Im not gonna complain because Im getting paid to do something I love, and that's what really matters.
The XTI 4000s should do fine for just about any wedge. I think that if you run those amps you are infact overpowering the wedges.
I have a pair of Carvin wedges that do sound good, but every time they have been used the power has been matching and the tweeters keep getting blown, they are old piezo tweeters so there like $2 a piece. Im gonna put a crossover and actual compression drivers in them.
I did an experiment with them. I have an amp that is 800 watts at 8 ohms and I think 1400 watts at 4 ohms, the wedges are 8 ohm wedges. I ran that amp on them and they sounded ok, kind of muddy, nothing to awesome. I ran a QSC PLX 3600 on one of them bridged, that hits that wattage when you run 4 ohms bridged, I don't know what the power was at 8 ohms, but those sounded so crisp and clean, world class, with no eqing.
Over power as much as you can as long as you hit that 3x number and it will rock your world how good your equipment will sound!!!!
ALso when you are setting up your system, make sure that you are running your outputs at or just below unity and pull the system back enough so that you don't damage anything or anyone.

Dra

The "how much power" question is an old one, but cannot be answered unless you factor in all the side conditions.

Let's take a speaker that has the following ratings. 200w(cont) / 400w(prog) / 800w(peak)
Cont - Power (heat) applied with no relief (rest / cool down) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Prog - Power (heat) applied under normal attack and release usage of typical music with resting periods between notes. ^--^---^-^-^-^^----^-^-^^---^
Peak - Power (heat) applied in durations measured in milliseconds. Snare, kick, mic drop, etc.

---

^

---

^----^

---

^

---

^
Mechanical failure (inappropriate filter application) or faulty cabinet design will not be considered here.

Too little power CANNOT damage a speaker.

If a 50w amp is used on this speaker, it will NEVER fail. Even at hard clipping, when it can only deliver up to 100w. The speaker can easily disperse the heat generated. There will be no dynamics to the music, but it will reproduce sound.

Step up to a 100w amp (gain 3db output at max). When outputting 50w, the music will have more life than the 50w amp because it has output in reserve for the peaks. The 100w amp at clipping is still safe (200w), but is at the borderline of damaging the speaker. The program and peak ratings mean nothing once the continuous power is breached.

Step up to a 200w amp (gain 3db). 50w will sound even better. 100w will increase output and sound good. 200w will increase output and not sound as good, because the dynamics have no power. Push this amp into clipping (up to 400w) and the speaker will melt.

Step up to a 400w amp (gain 3db). The speaker will sound good in music situations and give more output for almost it's entire power capacity. This amp can do damage without trying to hard. But it now also has the ability, when clipped, to hit the speaker's peak rating.

Step up to a 800w amp (gain 3db). Restraint. Will the speaker operate on this amp and sound good doing it? Yes. Until you push the fader to the point that any of the ratings are breached. Restraint.

Typical LIVE music is much more friendly to speakers, so larger amps can be used to allow peaks. DJ (recorded) music has so much low (and sustained) content that continuous ratings are achieved very quickly.

DRA

James85

Thanks Dra for that post. It was what I was churning in my head. For sake of discussion and other readers I will continue. I use the xti 4000 to drive three 8ohm MRX monitors on one side of the amp. 2 ohm load. The amp is never run into clipping. It does not overheat. I have had no problems ever running at 2ohms for monitors. Just my experience. I can turn that row on mons up enough to have bands ask me to turn it down. It is typically the vocals they look for since they crank those stacks so loud it does no good to have them much in the monitors anyway. I guess my goal was to be able to pump the entire band into the monitors just because I want to.

As far as which brand is best..that is an endless circular debate. I know within a manufacturers line there are definite upgrades. I started at JRX. Then, on to MRX which is not bad really. Then I went to SRX cabinets and wow. I heard a smoothness compared to the JRX/MRX. Lots of people commented on how well the bands sounded. For subs I went from JRX subs to EAW LA400s and also MRX subs. That was an improvement. Then I recently moved up to the dual STX subs. THOSE sound very nice to me. The bands and audience took note. People were actually examining the subs..which I have never had happen.

I can certainly get away with the MRX monitors. They are not bad at all. I have a deal on three STX 12s for under 3K. I guess it is a good price from what I found online. I think the real first step is to start to use an iPad to mix the monitors from on stage. I never actually get to hear them since I have to mix FOH. I get them loud and no feedback and everybody is happy. I want to learn how to make the monitors sound good, not just loud. I have two new mixers-Soundcraft Expression and an X32. Once the iPad arrives I'll load in the software and start tweaking. Who knows-I may be perfectly satisfied with the MRXs. Haha-Maybe. :P