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PA+ for Liittle Church
Soapm
Posts: 20
Hello,
We're a small church with a sanctuary that's 63' x 43' with 20' high steeple style ceiling. Very hard to equalize.
our PA system has 3 full range, passive speakers (not sets, just 3 speakers). There are two Bose 802C outer with one large Yamaha in the center. Again, all full range and all passive.
I was wondering first what is different about the PX that it can't be used with passive speakers? I see where people use the PA with amplifier speakers so why doesn't the reverse work?
I wanted to know how do I set the speakers for my configuration? Is this considered 2x3? And how do I make sure all three outputs are full range?
All we want from the PA+ is feedback suppression and EQ? Would a PX work for us? We could sure use the money savings?
We're a small church with a sanctuary that's 63' x 43' with 20' high steeple style ceiling. Very hard to equalize.
our PA system has 3 full range, passive speakers (not sets, just 3 speakers). There are two Bose 802C outer with one large Yamaha in the center. Again, all full range and all passive.
I was wondering first what is different about the PX that it can't be used with passive speakers? I see where people use the PA with amplifier speakers so why doesn't the reverse work?
I wanted to know how do I set the speakers for my configuration? Is this considered 2x3? And how do I make sure all three outputs are full range?
All we want from the PA+ is feedback suppression and EQ? Would a PX work for us? We could sure use the money savings?
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We live in a marketed world. The PX is "marketed" to active speaker users. The Driverack doesn't know or care what is connected to it.
I do not own a PX (have a 260 and several PA's). I do not know if the PX will allow you to separate the GEQs, which would be good, but not a deal breaker.
Would you consider buying used on EBAY? Perhaps you could get an upgrade to a PA, PA+, or 260 for the same money, or even less. I bought 2 of my PA's on EBAY with no issues.
How is you system currently run? Stereo (L & R w/ mono center), mono, mono with dual outputs (Center and sides), etc How do you want to run it?
DRA
The two outer speakers were run from the main mixer outputs and the center speaker was run from a aux out like a monitor. One of the things I wanted from the PA was to run all 3 speakers from the two main outputs.
I don't know how stereo or mono plays into this since all the signal comes from mic's.
I bought the PA and played with it last night and realized it has only two EQ channels so my ideal hope isn't possible. And opening the cross over on the middle speaker without EQ is noticably a bad idea.
Now I'm thinking of either removing the center Yamaha or putting it and its mate in the rear of the sanctuary. Paralelling the speakers in each set and put the fronts as left and the rears as right and letting the PA+ balance them from there.
Unless someone knows of a way to full range balance, EQ and AFS three of the six outputs???
Select custom passive bi-amp speakers, w/ subs and custom amp.
I assume that your mixer has separate L&R output faders. If not, a change will need to be made.
Connect the left out to the left PA input, and the right to the right.
Connect Bose amp to high out left (or right if you like instead).
Connect Yammy amp to mid out right (or left if the Bose is on right).
No connection to lows unless you have subs.
Set the x-over filters for each band accordingly to the speakers used. I would suggest a HPF for each at their -3db point.
For example: Let's say that the yammy is on high left and is has a range of 55hz-19Khz (+/-3db). Then set the high band with a HPF of 55hz BW18 and a the LPF as OUT (not selectable). Let's say the Bose are on Mid right and have a range of 73hz - 16khz (+/-3db). Then set the mid band with a HPF of 73hz BW18 and the LPF at 16khz BW18.
With the master faders equal adjust the high and mid filter gains to make the outputs the same level. Then you will have a visual reference at the master for zone control (Yammy vs Bose). Increase the left master to increase the middle zone. Increase the right master to raise the side zones. Or set the masters the same and balance the gains in the PA to be shade for volume in the zones. Whatever works best for you.
Each speaker group will have it's own GEQ and also each group will have PEQs for tonal adjustments. If there is a more tonally challenge speaker put it on the high band. The high has 3 PEQs, the mid only has 2.
Hope this helps. If you have questions... feel free.
DRA
PS - Beware the Auto-EQ.
Perhaps I'm not following well but I don't see what to do with the other BOSE speaker.
The BOSE amp has two channels, let and right, so you said hook one to the left or right HIGH. Then Hook the Yamaha to the opposite MID. What about the other BOSE speaker? Or are you agreeing I should parallel both sets of speakers and put one set on each channel (one set left and one set right)?
I also don't know what this means or how you do it, "HPF of 55hz BW18, HPF of 73hz BW18 and LPF at 16khz BW18.". I keep seeing them but I have no idea what that is saying??? I assume HPF is high pass filter, 55hz is where you set left end of the filter, BW must be bandwidth???? 18??? And how do you do this? My guess is because I saw the screen by hitting the x-over button but I can't figure the screen out or how you adjust it.
Also, how do I, "Set the x-over filters for each band accordingly to the speakers used".
Lets remove the hypothetical, I can put the BOSE on left and Yamaha on Right.
Bose 802 III = 60 'hz - 15khz +/- 3db.. AMP is Peavy M-2600 (two channel amp)
Yamaha s4115h = The closest I see is 70hz - 15khz (101 +/- 6db)... AMP is Peavy M-3000 (mono amp which is why we didn't hooked up the second speaker).
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.yamaha.co.jp%2Fmanual%2Fpdf%2Fpa%2Fenglish%2Fspeakers%2FS4115HE.pdf&ei=aY9NU5yXHqqMyAG_toCoAQ&usg=AFQjCNHyN7Kg4459ETAf-G2frX_gD708ZQ&sig2=CxMRhkf8skmdOzOIZbx5tQ
Mixer is Eurodesk SX3242FX. It has one volume slider for both channels if that what you mean by fader.
I put the Yamaha's on the high right and the BOSE on the mid left which seems to sound the best. My only complaint is that it EQ's both sets simultaneously instead of EQ'ing right then left separate like it did before and 12 doesn't appear to be enough notch filters to suppress the feed back we have. I was hoping to have filters left so I could use my tie mic but with this setup I don't have enough for the main setup much like adding my tie mic.
Ps... anyway to blank out all those presets? They're worthless to me and it's gets confusing when you accidentally change to one at the start of the wizard. I also notice by changing the wizard you also change the xover settings but it doesn't give you a chance to reset them before going into adjusting the output levels.
....
The wizard get's to a place where it wants to balance left and right, first high then mid. But of course I don't have outputs on both sides of high and mid so it coughs and won't proceed. Is there a solution or easy way to skip that setting?
...
Lastly, I had it sounding pretty decent. I turned it off and was about to go home when I thought to give it one more listen, everything seemed fine until I turned on the amp for the Yamaha's, then I got massive feedback. I could turn down the mixer to stop the feed back but when I turn it back up it comes right back. So I went through the setup again... Everything was fine, I turned it all off and when I turned it on again, feedback...
Does this system retain the settings through a power out condition? Our complete sound system is in a cabinet that is run by a master switch. We power everything up and down with that one switch except for the amps which we turn off first and on last.
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Thanks for your input though because the thing really sounded a lot better with the speakers equalized and balanced.
Next I want to learn to use the limiter and compressors so the volume stays fairly consistent whether the person singing is loud or soft. I guess a little at a time...
Below is from the "START HERE" thread.
"Fist thing you will need to to do is (you can select a preset but it's good practice to set it up yourself) set up your system in the Wizard. It's simply a matter of answering some questions and telling the unit what equipment configuration you have... If your specific equipment isn't listed "DON"T PANIC" simply enter "CUSTOM" for those pieces not listed...As for the much ballyhooed amp "sensitivity" setting... don't worry about it! We will end up setting that in the Gain Structure anyway...
If you have the new PA+ after you set up the system the next thing it's going to want to do is set the system balance...STOP :!:
first you need to verify that the crossover is properly set up... So, you will want to exit the system balance and return later once we are sure that the xover is properly set up, or the balance will be useless if you do it later... Press the [preset] button... use this as a "home" key when ever you want to go to the system screen... Next press the [xover] button. This will take you to the xover pages. Here you will want to verify that the HPF (lowest frequency you want the crossover to pass to the selected speaker) is set high enough to protect your speakers (passive) and low enough to allow the the speakers to set their own HPF for most active speakers....
Once you have set up what you have for equipment you need to store it as a preset...his is accomplished by three presses of the [store] button, where you identify the preset, select a location for it (usually a preset you will NEVER use.. or a convenient location will work.. remember, you cannot destroy the factory presets anyway.. a Hard Reset will restore these to factory default) (you WILL however loose all user modified presets, so always keep a hard copy of your settings on the DRPA and PX for re-inputting should you have a failure) And finally do you want to replace_____ preset (this is referring to the one you are modifying right now) ... answer the prompts and store the preset...now your ready for a basic rough-in. press the program button on the DRPA to select the program you have just set up"
You do not need to do the balance thing because it is trying to balance the highs, mids and lows based off frequency bands. You are using them as full range outputs, so skip.
If it only EQ'd one time, then you don't have is set as 2 (L&R) EQs. You must have answered one of the questions wrong. It seems illogical to not select stereo EQ, but that links the L&R channels together so you don't have to make but one adjustment. OK. Back up. The PA+ offers Stereo & Stereo Linked, so you need to select Stereo (this would be dual mono in the PA). What did you select when you set it up before? Make sure that when you do the Auto-EQ that it actually does it twice (once for each side). It should prompt you to press the next button (I think) to continue to the second stage.
You mentioned the compressors and limiters. Limiters are for speaker protection and should be set. See limiters below.
If you have feedback issues now, the compressor will make it worse. Image that you have the mic level set just below the point of feedback. The preacher speaks quietly for effect. The compressor increases the gain to compensate... instant and consistent feed back. If you want to only suppress loud inputs then that would be fine, but do not add make-up gain.
Lastly, You should go here... viewtopic.php?f=61&t=959 (this is the source of the above quote). It describes gain structure and limiter setting... step by step.
Let me know how it goes and if I can help further.
DRA
Correct, I wanted the PA2 but it would have broken my budget so we got the PA+
I apologize, I missed the "START HERE" thread all together. I will go back and review it. Go easy on me, I went to public schools LOL
This I needed to know, how to safely exit the wizard without loosing what you just set.
I thought I did this by labeling U1 as Church but it seems every time I look back into it there is something different. Ex.. The last time I looked the band filters were back to default. Once the amp was changed from bi-amp to passive. I think the first part of that wizard messes with the settings instead of using the preset as a reference and just confirming if you want to keep things as is. It would also be nice of the xover filters were part of the wizard when you pick custom speakers and amps.
I dig you here but pressing preset is the only way I know to skip this step but then I lose my place in the wizard. Am I missing something? Maybe this will be addressed in the START HERE thread.
This is when the amp was changed from bi-amp. Again, I don't know how the settings keep changing.
Roger that... In the PA+ defense, I'm not close to the next feedback point. I got the gain just above 0 when I ran out of notch filters but I have the gain set down to 10 for "performance level". My problem is, that was in a nice quite church with just me in it and no one was using a mic. Before the PA+ we were running the mixer just above 0 and right on the edge of feedback since the mic's would ring as people moved so I think I got room to play now between 10 and 0 and it's so much louder now I doubt if we make it up to 0.
will do and thanks for all the help. I will read the start here thread first then move to the limiter.
The set-up wizard is only to set up the inputs and outputs. Once you tell it stereo inputs, stereo GEQ, and the outputs needed (base on the speakers you select) the Wizard is done. You don't have to go into it again. You address the x-overs by entering that module. You address the Auto-EQ by entering that wizard. You address the Feedback by entering that wizard. Be sure to save after the initial set-up, and after any structural change (like the x-over settings).
What notch width are you using in the AFS? If you are running out of filters, go to a wider filter. You might just need to use the one for speech. It is more narrower than a 31 band EQ's filter. FYI, you can change the filter widths during the process (a few of each if you wish). For example, catch a few with speech, change to music medium and catch a few, change to music high, etc. For sure, be sure that you use speech on the live filters. Speech grabs the quickest. You have to be on live for live to work.
DRA
I may rethink this after Easter but it's working good now so I better leave good enough alone lol...
My goal when I started was to be able to use my tie mic since I'm a pacer and like to move around but I may have better luck with less speakers instead of more devices lol
Then be sure the Yamaha are on there own EQ, AMP this way you can use one or the other for FILL speakers, choose which sounds best and make them the HOUSE MAINS...use the other for FILL or delay....
Sometimes the whole "system processor" can confuse and make it more difficult to control, especially with wizards and auto EQs etc, when you go to set these speakers up and run the AUTO EQ etc, turn off the amp to the yamaha and run the auto eq, then turn off the amp to the bose and run the auto eq on the yamaha...this way they are both eqed seperatly, then turn both amps on and BLEND them, again use one system only as the MAIN HOUSE, the other for FILL or etc...
Both of these systems are FULL RANGE, your not using SUBS so select, CUSTOM PASSIVE FULL RANGE for each....
I put the Yamaha on the high left and the BOSE on the mid's right with the bandpass opened up for each.
During the auto EQ I moved the mic and pointed it right at the speaker in question, set the PA+ level to 0db then cranked the amp to get "performance live" so the auto EQ would adjust. Then for the BOSE in the rear I set the PA+ to about -3db, cranked the amp to get etc...
I then turned the amps down to a comfortable level so my massive feedback problems are much better. I can go up about another 5db before I get feedback so I am set pretty good now.
Pearlpro = As for the BOSE active EQ, I took that out since the PA+ seems to EQ the speakers without the use of that active EQ box. That box seem to be giving a little gain which then enhanced the feedback so I took it out and they sound fine without it.
Now I need one last piece of advice, is there a place to find more EQ presets? I tried the 4 that are preloaded in the PA+ and it might just be me, but it doesn't seem to sound life like. Maybe it's because it's me listening to my voice and you always sound funny to yourself but I would like a more bassie sound like Barry White (JK), just something more lively...
DRA
Turns out someone had hit the low cut filter on my channel. One of the musicians hooked me up tonight.
I have to admit, after turning down the gains on the amps and getting the EQ gain to 0db and below has made me very happy with this Driverack PA+. I wished it had more feed back filters and for them to be per channel but overall I'm very happy. Now I'm looking for a lavalier to really give this thing a test. I think I'm ready to go handsfree...
DRA
Any idea what's causing this and how I can get rid of it?
I almost hate to mess it up, I got a condenser mic coming for the pulpit that has a switch. I'm wondering now if I should just put the new mic up on eBay and leave things as it. Unfortunately my nature is go for better so I hope I don't mess things up lol
DRA
DRA
Also, the AFS 224 by itself doesn't really give me more gain even having 24 filters per channel.
I did get some gain using both together (36 fixed filters), but our system freaks out with uncontrollable feedback at every imaginable frequency before 0db on the mixer with the additional filters on the AFS224 I can get it some louder but the system still rings and is always at the edge of feedback.
What we really need is to redesign the church. At current the main speakers are recessed into the back wall so all mic's are in front of the speakers and we have a total of 12 mic's and none have switches. The PA+ gave us significant gain before feedback so maybe I need to be happy with that blessing...
I will test the condenser mic just to see what difference it makes as far as pickup but I don't think I'll be keeping it. We're about as good as we're going to be considering...
you can take the eq(Mics must be turned on) and starting at about 500 Hz, slide them up until you begin to hear feedback if you slide it quite a way up and no results go back to FLAT, which is in the middle, and go to the next eq slider, slide it up, any feedback, do this each time until you find the offending location of the feedback and adjust the slider back(Below Flat) downwards a small amount,
after you do that you will be able to turn the system up louder overall and NOT have feedback, this is RINGING OUT the system.....use the outboard EQ for this so your not having to change and access the MAIN EQ, after you do this you may be able to readjust the MAIN EQ to match this and return your outboard EQ to FLAT again using it to find or catch those single nodes that may still cause issues,,,,Fancy digital AUTO Feedback Correction while its considerably better today can cause you some issues if its not really applied and used well,
Dont add Condenser Pulpit mic youll have one HE77 of a nasty time trying to stop the feedback, what mic are you using at the Podium, what type Cardiod, Hyper Cardiod, what is the mics REJECTION from the front, sides, Look this up online and use mics with a tight polar patttern that when the Pastors body is standing in front of the mic it blocks all pickup from the side...rear....he may have to stand closer to the mic, stay in a fixed zone....
Thanks, can't move the speakers or should I say it will be a while before I can. They're Yamaha 4115H which are 24x18x33 so they're very large and would be very noticeable if I moved them into the sanctuary. The sanctuary is only 63 long by 42 feet wide and the stage part must be a third of that so they would be one third of the way into the sanctuary, large, noticeable and loud. We also have some BOSE 802E in the rear facing forward. Why I don't know since I preach Wednesday night, mid week service with no mic at all so 4 speakers is a huge overkill.
Eventually I want to add a screen so I can display notes while preaching/teaching so I may can slip in new speakers if or when that even happens. Perhaps I can move the BOSE to the front and remove that large Yamaha's which are really an overkill. The BOSe would be a lot less obtrusive in the sanctuary and I believe would be more than enough.
That's probably a good idea, the driverack has it fairly stable but a 1/3 EQ would do much better job of fine tuning than the AFS224 did. The way it is now I can turn it up a few DB's before feedback but what happens is it rings when SOME people speak into the mic but not everyone so it's hard to wave a magic wand to fix all of it and the AFS 224 live filters don't respond to the ringing so it was really no help.
I bought a MX412, super cardoid. The mic works great, had to turn down the gain but it still has the sensitivity I was looking for. It would pick me up without speaking directly into it. However, it looks like I would have to drill a hole in the pulpit to mount it. Did I mention I am the "new pastor". I don't think I better do any drilling if I want to keep my new job lol. I think one of the auxiliaries bought the pulpit and chairs so I better respect their effort.
What I am looking for is exactly the opposite of what you describe. I am the new pastor of the church but I don't like eating a mic and I preach part of my sermons from manuscript. Originally they had a 24" goosenesk (the previous pastor was tall) which I improved greatly just be getting a 13". I can now lean in a little but not much. Ever try reading a manuscript with a mic so close to you that you're afraid you're going to bump your head or mouth on the mic? Huge distraction let me tell you. And having to see past the mic to see your notes gives you the split vision effect if it's too close because one eye will see on each side of the mic. I know you sound guys always say get closer to the mic but you ought to try being on our end. It's easier said than done. I would hold the mic but I like keeping my bible in my hand so I can flip back and forth.
The pulpit I came from had a tiny condenser mic that maybe came up about 6" and would pick me up anywhere around the pulpit. I got accustomed to the openness and room I had to work without a mic 2 inches from my mouth. Of course there was a sound guy that would mute the other mic's and turn mine way up to give me that effect. I can't do that here with no mic guy and 12 open mic's. But you are right about the condenser mic, it is a feedback queen and I think the negatives outweighed the positives so it will be on eBay soon.
31 band EQ with those feed back lights so I can quickly see which freq is doing the ringing. I didn't think of that but I bet that's all that's needed from here and it's a cheep fix... Thanks!!!