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Help needed for new user of PA2 for feedback supression

Hi new user looking for help from experienced user of PA2. We are a band playing bars and purchased 2 units to help get rid of feedback from vocal mics. (one for the main PA and one for separate monitors) We have had some success in rehearsal using the wizard. However in a live situation not so great. One issue is that during set up and wizard use we are asked to raise mixer levels to create feedback and this is very off putting as the audience is present even though we get there 3 hours ahead of us starting, people are still in the venue and creating feedback is a real problem during set up.

My other initial question is, if we set the systems up at rehearsal where creating feedback is not an issue we assume that this may not be accurate when we move to a different room (the venue) as characteristics will be different. Is this correct? so do we need to reset up the PA2 for every new room we play in?

Really looking at how we can get help from someone who has experience of this ideally in a live band situation. I can see the PA2 has promise but right now we are not really comfortable with the two units. Thank you to anyone who can help or even better get in to a short dialogue with me.

Comments

  • HARMAN_EEldeHARMAN_EElde Posts: 1,125

    The AFS Wizard should be done at a soundcheck with no people present typically. It will need to be done for pretty much every new venue and new equipment situation yes. You can try changing the amount of live filters after setting it up to see if it will "catch" more dynamic performance based feedback but ringing out the system will give you more accurate results.

  • @HARMAN_EElde said:
    The AFS Wizard should be done at a soundcheck with no people present typically. It will need to be done for pretty much every new venue and new equipment situation yes. You can try changing the amount of live filters after setting it up to see if it will "catch" more dynamic performance based feedback but ringing out the system will give you more accurate results.

    thanks for that, thats how we are using it but as I say in my post is there a way of setting up without the need to create actual feedback as its very off putting as the audience are in the venue. Even though the feedback lasts a few seconds its very unprofessional and we wondered if another way around that. Also I notice the AF 2 has far more filters than the PA2 and wondered if that it a better option for us as its primary function is feedback suppression. And finally, given we only use wizard and that our PA speakers are not listed so we use not listed in the menu, what other things is the PA2 doing to sound (when only using wizard) apart from feedback suppression. Thanks for your time in helping us.

  • HARMAN_EEldeHARMAN_EElde Posts: 1,125

    No other way to ring out the system nope. Either do it before the audience arrives or try to make up for it with Live filters but as i said, the best result is to ring out the system. The AFS2 uses the same process more or less for setup.

    The PA2 has a lot of other features, the product page goes over them well:
    https://dbxpro.com/en-US/products/driverack-pa2

  • @HARMAN_EElde said:
    No other way to ring out the system nope. Either do it before the audience arrives or try to make up for it with Live filters but as i said, the best result is to ring out the system. The AFS2 uses the same process more or less for setup.

    The PA2 has a lot of other features, the product page goes over them well:
    https://dbxpro.com/en-US/products/driverack-pa2

    Thanks again for your reply. Its really hard getting "user" info on this. You mention that the AFS2 uses the same process in set up but I wondered if it is more effective than the PA 2 due to having more filters?

    I have another couple of questions to help my understanding. (I am a drummer not a sound engineer but have responsibility for the PA and as such this kit)

    1. When using the wizard (as I dont have the knowledge to set up manually) apart from suppression of feedback what else is the PA2 doing automatically, particularly related to EQ. How it is it adjusting EQ when during set up wizard there is actually nothing being played by the band? The speakers we have (2x Yamaha DRX15's) and two subs (Pyrit 212's). (we use not listed for both)

    2. Would there be any real advantages using the wizard by using an RTA mic in the process? what will those benefits be and how are they achieved. We have very limited time in setting up/sound check so a real focus is that its a simple and quick process. What are your thoughts? for us using wizard is a RTA mic (I assume any make of RTA) going to make a big difference.

    3. Finally using the wizard when we get to the stage where we raise the mixer volume we notice that that screen on the PA2 moves to the next menu sometimes before I have finished, so feedback can occur as the slider goes up when the menu has left that screen. We hit back button but a little explanation of this section and how to do it properly would really help.

    I really appreciate your help. We feel we are getting some benefits from this unit but at present not sure if its worth keeping them (we have one for PA and one for monitors so 2) given the cost. However with some help as outlined in this post if we can get more understanding and better feedback suppression performance then maybe it will convince us to retain. (we have only had the units a week or so and tested once in rehearsal and once in a live show) Thank you again.

  • HARMAN_EEldeHARMAN_EElde Posts: 1,125
    edited September 30

    The AFS2 does have some more accurate feedback suppression in the sense you can set more filters yes. Ringing out the system with the AFS2 will give you the most accurate Feedback Suppression. (same process as the PA2)

    The benefit of using the AutoEQ is being able to set the EQ curve for your equipment without having to "pink the room" like the old process of doing EQ setting. This saves a lot of time for people who want an accurate EQ curve for your system. It also tunes to the environment of the venue you are in for accurate EQ settings.

    I can't tell you if you think you are getting benefits from the PA2, that's completely up to you guys. If you're unable to do soundchecks that the PA2 requires for the AFS and AutoEQ wizard, then I can't really tell you if you think it will benefit you or not. It works as it works. That's kind of how it is.

  • @HARMAN_EElde said:
    The AFS2 does have some more accurate feedback suppression in the sense you can set more filters yes. Ringing out the system with the AFS2 will give you the most accurate Feedback Suppression. (same process as the PA2)

    The benefit of using the AutoEQ is being able to set the EQ curve for your equipment without having to "pink the room" like the old process of doing EQ setting. This saves a lot of time for people who want an accurate EQ curve for your system. It also tunes to the environment of the venue you are in for accurate EQ settings.

    I can't tell you if you think you are getting benefits from the PA2, that's completely up to you guys. If you're unable to do soundchecks that the PA2 requires for the AFS and AutoEQ wizard, then I can't really tell you if you think it will benefit you or not. It works as it works. That's kind of how it is.

    I appreciate the reply but its not really answering my questions. Perhaps I am not communicating them clearly.

    I will try re wording
    1. We want feedback suppression thats primarily why we have bought them. PA2 or AFS 2 which is best at doing that?
    2. . How is the auto EQ working on the PA2 when our speakers are not listed. How (in layman's terms) is it adjusting the EQ. and is that at set up or during the playing. I dont understand how its working to do that. We dont understand how the auto EQ works.
    3. Using the wizard, what would using an RTA give us in terms of benefits over not using an RTA.
    4. please refer to question 3 in previous post and if you have experience please advise what we are doing wrong or how to avoid this.

  • HARMAN_EEldeHARMAN_EElde Posts: 1,125
    edited September 30

    @psburley said:

    @HARMAN_EElde said:
    The AFS2 does have some more accurate feedback suppression in the sense you can set more filters yes. Ringing out the system with the AFS2 will give you the most accurate Feedback Suppression. (same process as the PA2)

    The benefit of using the AutoEQ is being able to set the EQ curve for your equipment without having to "pink the room" like the old process of doing EQ setting. This saves a lot of time for people who want an accurate EQ curve for your system. It also tunes to the environment of the venue you are in for accurate EQ settings.

    I can't tell you if you think you are getting benefits from the PA2, that's completely up to you guys. If you're unable to do soundchecks that the PA2 requires for the AFS and AutoEQ wizard, then I can't really tell you if you think it will benefit you or not. It works as it works. That's kind of how it is.

    I appreciate the reply but its not really answering my questions. Perhaps I am not communicating them clearly.

    I will try re wording
    1. We want feedback suppression thats primarily why we have bought them. PA2 or AFS 2 which is best at doing that?
    2. . How is the auto EQ working on the PA2 when our speakers are not listed. How (in layman's terms) is it adjusting the EQ. and is that at set up or during the playing. I dont understand how its working to do that. We dont understand how the auto EQ works.
    3. Using the wizard, what would using an RTA give us in terms of benefits over not using an RTA.
    4. please refer to question 3 in previous post and if you have experience please advise what we are doing wrong or how to avoid this.

    The AFS2 will be better as a unit for feedback suppression overall as it is a dedicated unit to that function as it has more filters. That's not saying the PA2 AFS function is "lesser" than in it's functionality, you will just get a greater degree of filter coverage for feedback suppression and the AFS2 is just more pinpointed on that coverage as it has 24 filters instead of 12. Ringing out the system with the AFS2 will still be required at setup for best feedback suppression results.

    The AutoEQ adjusts via the AutoEQ wizard when the RTA Mic is connected to the PA2 and it emits a test tone. The speaker selections in the Wizard setup have nothing to do with the AutoEQ Wizard etc. You would do this at setup. It will not adjust dynamically in real time. It is done via the Wizard. Once the wizard is completed you can disconnect the RTA Mic.

    I am not sure what you mean by not using the RTA Mic, the RTA Mic is required to run the AutoEQ wizard. It will not complete correctly without it. You cannot use a regular microphone.

    I am not familiar with the screen moving forward without ringing the system out correctly, if the AFS Wizard does that then rerun the wizard and make sure to follow the instructions accurately and swiftly (do not wait a long period of time without moving the faders etc). If you are doing it correctly and feedback is heard, then that means the filters have been set correctly typically. If it is moving forward without any feedback being heard then yes, try to rerun the AFS Wizard again.

  • psburleypsburley Posts: 5

    @HARMAN_EElde said:

    @psburley said:

    @HARMAN_EElde said:
    The AFS2 does have some more accurate feedback suppression in the sense you can set more filters yes. Ringing out the system with the AFS2 will give you the most accurate Feedback Suppression. (same process as the PA2)

    The benefit of using the AutoEQ is being able to set the EQ curve for your equipment without having to "pink the room" like the old process of doing EQ setting. This saves a lot of time for people who want an accurate EQ curve for your system. It also tunes to the environment of the venue you are in for accurate EQ settings.

    I can't tell you if you think you are getting benefits from the PA2, that's completely up to you guys. If you're unable to do soundchecks that the PA2 requires for the AFS and AutoEQ wizard, then I can't really tell you if you think it will benefit you or not. It works as it works. That's kind of how it is.

    I appreciate the reply but its not really answering my questions. Perhaps I am not communicating them clearly.

    I will try re wording
    1. We want feedback suppression thats primarily why we have bought them. PA2 or AFS 2 which is best at doing that?
    2. . How is the auto EQ working on the PA2 when our speakers are not listed. How (in layman's terms) is it adjusting the EQ. and is that at set up or during the playing. I dont understand how its working to do that. We dont understand how the auto EQ works.
    3. Using the wizard, what would using an RTA give us in terms of benefits over not using an RTA.
    4. please refer to question 3 in previous post and if you have experience please advise what we are doing wrong or how to avoid this.

    The AFS2 will be better as a unit for feedback suppression overall as it is a dedicated unit to that function as it has more filters. That's not saying the PA2 AFS function is "lesser" than in it's functionality, you will just get a greater degree of filter coverage for feedback suppression and the AFS2 is just more pinpointed on that coverage as it has 24 filters instead of 12. Ringing out the system with the AFS2 will still be required at setup for best feedback suppression results.

    The AutoEQ adjusts via the AutoEQ wizard when the RTA Mic is connected to the PA2 and it emits a test tone. The speaker selections in the Wizard setup have nothing to do with the AutoEQ Wizard etc. You would do this at setup. It will not adjust dynamically in real time. It is done via the Wizard. Once the wizard is completed you can disconnect the RTA Mic.

    I am not sure what you mean by not using the RTA Mic, the RTA Mic is required to run the AutoEQ wizard. It will not complete correctly without it. You cannot use a regular microphone.

    I am not familiar with the screen moving forward without ringing the system out correctly, if the AFS Wizard does that then rerun the wizard and make sure to follow the instructions accurately and swiftly (do not wait a long period of time without moving the faders etc). If you are doing it correctly and feedback is heard, then that means the filters have been set correctly typically. If it is moving forward without any feedback being heard then yes, try to rerun the AFS Wizard again.

    Thank you again. Just a couple more questions.

    1. So to be clear, without a RTA mic then no auto EQ takes place is that correct? and so the entry of speaker type makes no difference without RTA?
    2. Can any RTA mic be used? I assume it does not need to be of your manufacture?
    3. Back to the comparison between PA2 and AF2, is auto EQ the only (main) difference and without RTA we are not getting any benefit of the PA2 over the AF2 or are their other differences?
    4. On auto EQ, we are concerned that changes to the bands sound may take place if we use it. How does it work? is it adjusting for the room? size, amount of fabric to absorb sound etc. Will it affect for example how we have set up EQ for guitar of vocals on the mixer and does it make any changes to overall volume levels?

    Thanks again.

  • HARMAN_EEldeHARMAN_EElde Posts: 1,125
    edited October 1

    The AutoEQ is a Wizard process that emits a test tone yes. The speakers will emit the test tone regardless of what you selected, such as Not Listed, in the Speaker selection (what happens when you select Not Listed is it sets a default crossover curve, so if you selected mains and subs, the subs frequency range would be 35-100Hz, all low sub range frequency, and the mains would be 100Hz to 20kHz or "Out" which indicates the rest of Full Range of the frequencies, low mid, mid, high mid, high etc). The RTA Mic is only used for the AutoEQ Wizard process.

    You can use a different RTA Mic, just change the RTA Mic Response to Flat in the Wizard Options instead of dbx RTA (press Wizard, select Wizard Options)

    The PA2 also has a input output routing and distribution which includes crossover (think of the PA2 as a Stereo 3 Way crossover, that can run in Stereo 2 Way, or simple Full Range, and with a summed Mono sub on the low or stereo subs), it also has a input signal chain processing, the GEQ for global Graphic EQ curves, Compression, Subharmonic Synth for enhanced sub frequencies, and the aforementioned AFS feature, on the output side beyond the crossover you have the Auto EQ capability, manual Parametric EQ, Limiter function and Delay alignment.

    The auto EQ works by emitting a test tone through your speakers which is analyzed and then gives the recommend EQ curve, you can tune to room targets as well yes.

    It will affect the overall EQ of your main mix out of the mixer, but it is up to you whether you think it is better or not. Most people prefer the AutoEQ but it is ultimately used for convenience as opposed to manually pinking and adjusting the EQ like the old school way of doing it with a PA.

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