End of an era.
vining
Posts: 4,368
With the purchase of AMX by Harmon International and the subsequent silent but formal abandonment of the resi sector I see we are now at the end of an era. I find myself spending less and less time on the AMX forums and find myself trying less and less to sell AMX products, I figure why. I've also noticed less and less participation on the forums from other resi dealers, are the any even left? Out of curiosity I looked up DHawthorne, the member with the most forum contribution over the last ten years with an average of 1.2 posts per day x 10 years and it seems he hasn't made a post in almost a month. This is the man who helped me a great deal when I first started out here on the forums some eight years ago and who single handedly probably made or saved AMX millions of dollars helping to educate would be dealers and programmers. Alas I fear this is all coming to an end so while there is still time and he still monitors this forum I'd like to personally thank Dave for all his help over the years, it's been fun.
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Dave is an inspiration and should be nominated AMX employee of the year or something.
It does seem the forum is mellowing in its old age. Talk nowadays seems to be more about TP Design issues and less about the finer points of programming theory. I've seen the "Long Goodbye" on a number of other forums I haunt. I don't know if this forum is entering that phase but it's certainly evolved into something else.
Don't sell yourself short Vining. You too are a valuable resource and member in a position of high honor in my book.
I trusted his input in every post of his that I read. It was always right on the mark.
I also have notice a steady decline in daily posts. Is it because of fewer issues with products, no one is doing complicated programming, or have all of the questions that can be asked have been already been answered.
I would also like to thank Vining and Medley, you two were also some of the highest posters to the forum. Always helpful and willing to share lessons learned.
My company has made the decision, for better or worse, to move to Control 4 and Savant Systems, and the only AMX work I do anymore is maintain existing installations. I don't mind admitting I'm a little bitter over it ... I invested a lot of my career becoming expert at a system that we have essentially abandoned. The main factor was unreliability of new AMX products. We've had so many callbacks on newer touch panels ... and everyone else uses an affordable IOS interface. Note the word affordable. When the competition is either giving away apps or selling them for under $5, it's next to impossible to sell a $5K touch panel or $1K app license.
So my choices are to go with it, or find another position with someone who still does AMX ... which would likely mean moving into the commercial field. I'm open to that, but it isn't easy to leave a company I've been with for nearly 30 years, no matter what the circumstances. But I'm not at all sure I want to just roll with the changes either. I like Savant, for example, as a product, but I can't stand "programming" it. I guess time will tell.
Meanwhile, I'm still here, even as my accumulated AMX experience grows dusty. Thanks again for the support.
I wonder if the percentage of newbies who find there way here has declined somewhat? Or if there are just fewer newbies? I know I have way fewer questions now than I did when I joined 5 years ago, and it took me several years of programming before I found the forum.
It's definitely been a very helpful resource over the years though thanks to you all.
Oddly, I seem to be busier the last year, and we sell Savant and C4 as well, but not C*******n. I am noticing fewer small AMX jobs in resi, but with the new ENV controllers there's been an uptick in custom boardrooms and the like. Typically the salespeople only sell AMX if a C4 or Savant system can't do what's needed, or the job is too big or the client specifically asks for it. I also get a lot of clients that bought an AMX system a few years ago, and now need another in another house. They are sticking with AMX when they could certainly get a Savant or C4 system instead. I don't ask why, but C4 and Savant have their own set of problems that AMX programmers aren't likely aware of. I hear about them since we sell all.
I sort of fell into AV programming after doing Java/C++ application programming so if AMX work dried up I'd probably get out of the AV control business, or just do in on the side. Its a growing field, but AV control programming has almost been commoditized with these turn key systems, so there are fewer challenges out there. Its a different experience being a software developer working for a firm that sells software, and being a software developer for a firm that simply needs some programming to sell another product.
Paul
I know personally I've consciously shifted my career focus. I work with networks, signal distribution, systems integration (not just AV) and UX design. I'm not a control system programmer. It's a role that is rapidly becoming the COBAL programmer of the AV world.
Around 6 months back I shifted to a primarily residential and niche commercial company and to be honest most of the control systems have been glorified universal remotes. I can handle all control and automation of lighting, both artificial and natural (blinds, shades etc), and environment from a dedicated lighting system. Security and access control is also handled by another system which integrates directly with the lighting control so need to involve a control system to proxy communication. Combine the ability to then handle most automation layers based on passive sensing rather than requiring buttons on a touch panel and the ability to build data connectors directly between different systems API's and the role of something like an NI is greatly diminished.
Do I still think AMX makes some kick arse products. Sure. Do I think they're the right solution residential projects? Not a chance. Would I use them for commercial? Definitely.
Just echoing what others have said as well. To all the other regulars, I've learnt so much from you over the past few years. Thank you.
So long and thanks for all the fish.
My days of selling AMX only (or at all) are at an end. I've already been on two alternative control system courses, taken up one of them. I'm booked on a C*****N course shortly, and already have a C******N job enquiry.....
I think AMX is a fantastic product, but clearly something that you cannot build a future business model on.....Hey, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.
When the powers that be decide that residential is actually worth it, I think it will be too late - should it ever happen! I'm not one for jumping around different products, I make projects work with systems/products that I know work. So,once I'm gone the chances of coming back aren't great - and I don't think I'm the only one.
So....If you are reading, Powers that be.......you're very quickly losing your best resources. Think...consider...& act before its too late.
Configurable systems are all well & good, but you don't see configurable systems on high end Marine & Residential projects and if the residential market is not worth it, Why are other control systems manufacturers able to make it work....
Done!
Hah - it's not a great picture either, just a quick selfie so I didn't have to use the generic. I should fix it. BTW, everyone wondering what we are talking about, it's my LinkedIn profile pic (which I use on Google + as well).
Oh Dave! That's certainly not what I meant! Your picture looks great!
I also work in another world - The recording studio and music production. And quite often I find myself working on music projects where I cannot see the faces of the people on the microphone. While doing this kind of stuff - your mind sorta creates a mental picture of the person anyway. This picture cements itself to all the interactions you have with the people.
It's quite unnerving when you see a picture that shatters that persona.
The best case I can think of is when people see pictures of Paul Harvey or Casey Kassum for the first time.
You don't know me guys, but I know you because when I'm looking for a solution to my AMX problem, I've always found it in one of your replies. So thanks again!
Back to the topic ...
Personally I think it's more than an era.
We are selling AMX for more than 10 years in commercial projects. We are a bit traditional in selling our solutions by using AMX as automation solution and Extron as end-to-end solution from sources to destinations. Nevertheless we sold some Enova's despite the fact we don't like the solution of having controller and switching device in 1 unit. But we see both brands evolving to these kind of integrated products for small to medium size rooms.
I'm missing some things from AMX.
1. A display on ALL controllers where you can see basic info as ip address, dns, systemnr, ...
2. A more advanced keypad. OK we have now the metreau series that connects via IP. But I miss a beeper and a small display to be able to give feedback to end users. Not all use cases require a touch panel and not all customers are touch panel savy.
3. TPcontrol license that is linked to a controller instead of a device. Even if you charge it a 1000 eur we won't miss projects where end users prefer using their pc, smartphone or tablet. Now if they have let's say 50 of those devices it would cost them roughly 25000 eur. A lot more than a 5000 eur they would have to pay for their 5 meeting rooms.
4. Rapid Project Maker ... "program your meeting room in 30 minutes" :S OK, but the marketing message isn't the best. Customers wonder why they have to pay 2 to 3 days custom programming if it can be done in 30 minutes. I had a look at RPM because I thought it indeed could have been interesting for smaller meeting rooms. And also that our "extron" technicians would be able to program amx. But the RPM doesn't contain Extron drivers so it's a no go for us.
5. The latest RMS is focussed on assets and "green" and less focussed on "room reservation". 4 or 5 years ago we had several assets in a meeting room (lights, projector, screen, switcher, dvd, ...) so RMS was worth it. Now in average a meeting room has a vga cable and a hdmi cable on the table going to a flat screen that switches and powers on/off automatically. It's not for those on average 5 high-level boardrooms with DVX/DGX and 80 small/medium meeting rooms with flat screen on auto switch/on/off that they will implement RMS. We missed a project with +200 meeting rooms where the customer wanted a room reservation panel at the corridor side. When we told the customer that he had to foresee half a rack to house 20 or more NI700's, the meeting was ended.
5. If there is a high percentage of defects on a certain product, charge less instead of more. We have a customer with 2 NI3100 controllers and 3 (initially beta versions) MVP5200. The 2 controllers have been repaired (capacitor). The 3 MVP5200 have been repaired (battery swells) at a cost of +500 eur each. And now, a few months later, 1 of the MVP5200 is again swollen. Customer called us friday to say that we have to find him something else than AMX. We are lucky that he stills calls us and not a competitor of us.
6. Enzo OK, but it's missing 'corporate' features.
7. It's more than 10 years now that AMX Europe is managed from UK. I don't have any problem with UK people but we feel that commercially and marketing wise, more effort goes to the UK market than the other countries in Europe.
8. ....
The above are my personal opinion.
We understand that commercial and marketing wise things change and evolve, but I'm not convinced it's the good way.
The reason that I take the time, and I have very little, to write this long email is because AMX is still in my heart, but commercially it's getting difficult to find arguments for the "why amx?" reactions.
Why do you buy a AMX system?,
because it's a CONTROL system and it needs CODE to work.
Who does this?,
the programmer.
So without any programmers there would not be any AMX system beeing sold.
How do you get the programmers to stay with AMX?,
you give them tools to work with that are good and EVOLVE those tool with updates and bugs fixes.
And have a forum where questions from programmers can be answered and viewed by others.
Why can't AMX get this, there are so many bugs/issues in Netlinx studio & TP4/5 that have been adressed in over 10 years without beeing fixed.
And to fix the UX for the programmer for ex:
IP adress list in a file,
image stretch,
Constant issues,
IP_CLIENT_OPEN not beeing able to be killed manually (need to wait for firmware preset 90sek timeout),
Watch bar issuse with modules,
Debugger breakpoint issue (stops AFTER command on selected line, but works in include files in the main module)
Chameleon image position locked & if button size is bigger than the chameleon image than you'll get an bleed outside the chameleon.
I could go on, the number of TICKETS I've raised just keeps getting bigger without not so much of it beeing fixed or that many functions added.
Why can't AMX realize that we are assets whom test there programming tools evey day and give feedback which could EVOLVE there products to the next step.
There is a light at the end of the tunnel, but it's a god damn long tunnel.
It all makes me sad.
I kinda has a sad, too. It seems pretty obvious that the control system industry in general is trying to ditch the need for programmers. Unfortunately I understand why, especially as I'm trying to hand off my own programming duties to another person. AMX programming is almost like a bunch of individual proprietary programs within the context of a proprietary language. Too specialized, too siloed, too hard to achieve continuity in support.
All my efforts to pass off my programming work has fallen into 2 categories: failure because the people don't have enough background in programming and logic who just can't get it, and failure because the people have too much background in programming and just won't dumb themselves down to the limits in the language and the tools.
For simple stuff, RPM and other drag-and-drop / "Wizard" style stuff seems to have finally achieved a level of functionality that is good enough. In the meantime, yeah, Netlinx Studio and all these other tools are still just clunky and buggy as hell. And, who cares if they can sell DGX and RPM to non-programmers who can use the stuff successfully?
I've complained about AMX costs a lot before, have talked about developing open-source alternatives, and have even gotten some Proof-of-Concept stuff working. I see others creating control systems using stuff like Raspberry PI devices. But... I'm not in that mindset right now. I'm not trying to hate on AMX, I'm not trying to abandon AMX.
For reasons unrelated to AMX, I've been looking for other jobs. There's absolutely no other similar work for me in the city I live in. If I leave my current job, I have to leave the AV industry all together, or at least, move to another city. I'm bummed I've let myself get so specialized, this seems like a complete dead-end for me. I'm having a very hard time finding another job.
Incidentally, you work at one of my alma maters. Mizzou (I think you work there...) Still many not-so-fond memories of standing in line at Jessi Hall...
To your point of finding work. I was faced (and still am to some degree) with the same issue. I was in a town where I worked at the biggest fish in the area doing the top job. I left that job (in a huff due to some nefarious dealings the company was doing that I won't go into here - nor could I countenance continuing with them...) The upshot of this is that I set myself adrift in an area where I held the only job of my sort available - and I had just summarily left said job.
Fortunately for me a fellow forum member Spire_Jeff was gracious enough to hire me for remote work. During this short time we both developed a good working model for remote work. So, during that time - my virtual commute from my home in Charleston to Troy Michigan became the norm for daily work.
I now am an independent (VIP) and have adapted the same model but for more than one integration firm. I had to be willing to move way out of my comfort zone on job types and genre. I basically had to accept whatever came my way and whatever I could kill and drag home. Where that's led me to so far is a lot of commericial/industrial/educational work. Almost no resi at all.
I'd like to be busier but I'm pretty booked up and happy I made the switch. I think our industry, and particularly programmers, is moving this way. "Where we are located" is are is not as important as "what we are." The truth is that the full-time programmer gig may be more a thing of very large scale integration firms, or at least big/only fish in a medium to large pond type gigs. I don't think most medium to small firms can afford the full-time programmers any longer. They are just running too lean.
But, I still find that these same firms seem to need programmers sometimes. So, if they are willing to rent us out, and we can get enough renters, both parties win. Another feature of this model is it does force you to streamline how you program because quite often you get some pretty messy existing programming or you are handing off stuff to shall we say less than qualified programmers/technicians.
When I look back on my career thus far in both fields I still work in: AVIT engineering/programming and Music Production (both fields seemingly under siege..) I have found that one must be willing to stretch and adapt as best one can. I know you have had to do this too. I hope you find a viable situation as I think your expertise in this field is vital to the community.
If I go freelance, I think I'd gravitate a lot more towards database development than AV system work, but I know how that "you don't turn down any paying job" thing goes as a freelancer. If I could make decent money washing dishes, I would change careers in a heartbeat.
Thanks and best wishes to everyone!
I came here looking for some quick information and found myself reminiscing in this thread. Thanks for the stroll down memory lane!
Jeff
Best part was when our new rep called on Jan 8th wanting to touch base and see how everything was going. He said there will renewed interest in the resi market and they would be evaluating their coverage.
Boss pretty much told him that AMX may not catch a lot of fish in our area, but if they pull the pole out of the water they won't get any.
Kevin D.
At least you got a new rep so maybe their is hope since the rep usually don't handle both resi and commercial and if you out of tge resi market they why hire a rep? I wish I had a rep, I actually think I do but they're beyond useless and the 5th I've had in 10 years.
I thought Harmon buying AMX was going create a brighter future but the horizon keeps getting darker and darker.
There is definitely something going on. I received a call from our AMX Rep last week requesting a meeting with myself and the principals of our company. He couldn't tell me much over the phone, but I did inquire of him Harman/AMX future with Resi. He reiterated that he could not offer much in way of details, but wanted me to rest assure that there are some great things on the horizon in Residential, and that they were not "going away"
I am extremely interested to hear what they will have to say (meeting is scheduled in the near future)
I will share as much as they allow me with everyone.
AMX is not dead in residential. AMX is just further up the ladder, now being reserved only for the most custom of systems.
There is no reason that AMX cannot complete with Savant and ******** in resi, they just have to decide that they want to. I think that the ownership by Harman presents new opportunities. If you don't hear anything by then end of the year, I believe it would then be time to call the coroner.
All the best to everyone still here!
Cheers and best of luck to everyone!
Also, to kinda offer a counter point to a lot of the dooom-n-gloom talk - The commerical side of things is still very much good hunting grounds. This side of things is a lot less likely to go to the McControl Systems (at least for now) I personally find the more standardized and semi-regulated aspect of commercial a big help in that you tend to spend less time education the client on how a project timeline works. (I said 'less' mind you) There's a whole other set of issues that crop up that resi just doesn't deal with as well. On balance, I find it way less stressful.
But concerning AMX and it's place in the market space, Commercial is a good area to be in. If you are a "Resi-only" dealer and are finding yourself being crowded out of the McMarket, I'd highly recommend looking at the Commerical/Education/Medial side. It does take a bit of re-tooling. But, the space does remind me of the old days where we were the only or at least one of the few game(s) in town.
I feel like I just attended a wake, snap out of it!
AMX still rocks it, working with the other company is like working on a science project!
I can’t comment on any other systems as I’m 100% AMX and have never crossed over to the dark side so maybe it’s my bias speaking but I have to believe that AMX can still find a home in high-end resi. Why would Harmon and AMX want to leave all that money on the table? They do need a better alternative to the R4 though. Touch screens and iPads are great but you gotta have the hard button tactile feedback from a reliable durable hand-held remote that has a keypad and transport buttons for watching the boob tube.
And I agree AMX rocks, as the image in my signature has been displaying for the last 10+ years here on the forum. :cool: