But accelerated list scrolling means that I can't really read what's going by...
Accelerated scrolling isn't gesture based though, thats a very non gestural UI thing. I think that the flicking iainshaw is referrering to is somethine along the lines of that availble in the iPhone UI kit. It is an example of an extremely user friendly and intuitive gesture - the way they're implimented lists feel as though they've got mass, they feel 'real'. You can simply grab it and drag them up or down to navigate, if you want to go faster you can throw it, and most importantly, if you have thrown it and you want to stop it so you have time to process the information you simply grab it, exactly as though it was a real life moving object.
iainshaw is definately correct though, just because you mention gesture it doesn't mean that the entire interface is controlled by using motions that take 11 fingers and your tongue, instead the whole concept is to have them emulate an action you might make in the physical world, thus drawing on competancy that you've been developing since birth.
But accelerated list scrolling means that I can't really read what's going by, so why bother scrolling at all?
Paul, have you ever used an iPhone before? Or an iTouch? Accelerated scrolling is useful when you *know* what title you want to select; so if you wanted to listen to some Warren Zevon, you can flick just a few times and voila - you're at the W's (or Z's, depending how you named the folder / artist, etc.)
I'm not too sure of how many people go up to a touch panel and say to themselves, "Hmmm - I think I'll listen to some music . . . I'm not sure of what's in my collection, so I'll just browse aimlessly until something jumps out and I'll act surprised." I'm sure it's quite the contrary - a person surely has at the very least a general idea as to what they want to listen to, be it a genre, or a specific artist or album. And I think the innovators who came up with accelerated scrolling knew this.
Paul, have you ever used an iPhone before? Or an iTouch? Accelerated scrolling is useful when you *know* what title you want to select; so if you wanted to listen to some Warren Zevon, you can flick just a few times and voila - you're at the W's (or Z's, depending how you named the folder / artist, etc.)
I'm not too sure of how many people go up to a touch panel and say to themselves, "Hmmm - I think I'll listen to some music . . . I'm not sure of what's in my collection, so I'll just browse aimlessly until something jumps out and I'll act surprised." I'm sure it's quite the contrary - a person surely has at the very least a general idea as to what they want to listen to, be it a genre, or a specific artist or album. And I think the innovators who came up with accelerated scrolling knew this.
I have used an iPhone, and have some criticisms about the UI, so I haven't bought one. You mention 'you can flick just a few times', but that is kind of my point, in that it seems to require more of the user with no real increase in function. If I wanted to search for Warren Zevon in a long list, the last thing I want to do is scroll all the way down the list. That seems stupid to me since the list is in sorted order already, and scrolling down it ignores that advantage. I would rather press a button that takes me to the end of the list immediately whereupon I will likely find Zevon without much trouble, than watch screens full of blurry text but that's just me
Paul
I have used an iPhone, and have some criticisms about the UI, so I haven't bought one. You mention 'you can flick just a few times', but that is kind of my point, in that it seems to require more of the user with no real increase in function. If I wanted to search for Warren Zevon in a long list, the last thing I want to do is scroll all the way down the list. That seems stupid to me since the list is in sorted order already, and scrolling down it ignores that advantage. I would rather press a button that takes me to the end of the list immediately whereupon I will likely find Zevon without much trouble, than watch screens full of blurry text but that's just me
Paul
Out of curiosity, what are your criticisms of the iPhone/iPod Touch UI (sorry my inner user experience geek is really interested)?
Personally I think the way apple have combatted the disadvantage of the flick list you described is one of the best usability features of the interface. If you have a longer list open the entire alphabet followed by a numeric character (#) is overlayed down the right hand side of the display if you want to jump to any point simply tap the letter, or you can drag along it to scroll through sections segmented by their first character.
P.S. Appologies for having a hand in converting this thread to a discussion purely on interface and user experience design, I tend to get a bit excited .
I have used an iPhone, and have some criticisms about the UI, so I haven't bought one. You mention 'you can flick just a few times', but that is kind of my point, in that it seems to require more of the user with no real increase in function. If I wanted to search for Warren Zevon in a long list, the last thing I want to do is scroll all the way down the list. That seems stupid to me since the list is in sorted order already, and scrolling down it ignores that advantage. I would rather press a button that takes me to the end of the list immediately whereupon I will likely find Zevon without much trouble, than watch screens full of blurry text but that's just me
Paul
Fine - Led Zeppelin. I'm not sure we need to argue the functionality aspect - it's all about show. Get a room full of 20 people, and show them two touch panels . . . one that looks "super cool and sexy" (whatever that may be), and one that is minimalist in nature, yet both achieving the same goals. I'd be willing to bet that if you asked them "which panel is better?", they'd point to the "cool and sexy" one.
It's coming either way, and I think we all know that AMX will need to compete with it. How? Not sure. But you will have to admit, as someone pointed out already the "younger" generation, will want it. And when they pick up a $300 iPod, and then pick up a $5,000 remote that can do all these fancy things like turn on lights, and the TV and a bunch of other neat stuff - but when they want to scroll, surely some (if not most) will say "Hmm - why can't this $5,000 (fill in the blank) do what my iTouch does? And that's only $300!"
Moral of the story: blurry text is in. Surely people had problems with bell-bottoms and platform shoes when they arrived, but it was a craze or a generation. All things change and surely will come to an end with the arrival of "something better."
Out of curiosity, what are your criticisms of the iPhone/iPod Touch UI (sorry my inner user experience geek is really interested)?
I have found that with Apple products they discount usability for the sake of a cool design, or think they are the same thing which they are not. That is their trade off and I understand it, I just don't prefer it. The older iPod that had the scroll wheel was a cool design but scrolling through a long list by continually spinning your finger around and around was silly I thought and could have been implemented much better but it would have 'broken' their design paradigm. Similarly, the two button mouse would have ruined their design so they stuck with a one button mouse which I thought was silly. There are more examples but I won't bore you with them.
I don't have an iPhone to test, so I will ask iPhone users how much user input (button presses/gestures etc) is required to make a phone call to someone in your contact list?
Paul
P.S. Appologies for having a hand in converting this thread to a discussion purely on interface and user experience design, I tend to get a bit excited .
I think this conversation warrants being transferred to a thread of its own. I know there have been discussions about TP4 wishlist items in the past, but I think a general discussion of UI paradigms/technology would attract a lot of attention if not hidden in this thread.
Regards,
Ahem - newly promoted **Senior Member**. I feel special.
(Ruining the neighbourhood since 2007. They'll let anyone in here )
Agree with Auser - the thread's lost its focus on Savant - with a renewed focus on UI and UE. I'm as guilty as anyone in that. I'd be in favour of the mods splitting it out.
I did just that Jamie. It was great. I totally agree with all your illustrated AMX strengths. They appeal to the "head". But the trouble is sometimes the "heart" can over rule even the most logical and rational of decision making.
A couple of months back I travelled all the way over from the other side of the Pacific to take a look at Savant. I'm one those "high end" users you speak about, who like the "WOW" factor.
My honest, initial impression for what it's worth: I was blown away by Savant. It was all in the GUI...
Putting up AMX vs Savant: The controllers/control together...AMX looked positively "yesterday". It reminded me of the feeling when I switched from Windows XP to Apple OSX. Or when I first used Sonos, after stuffing around trying to get other music controllers to work. I couldn't help that "feeling" then. And I couldn't stop myself from having the same feeling about Savant either (sorry)
Savant had a much better feel about it ..if you've read the book "Blink", you'll know what I mean
If I could have brought back a Savant system, I would have thrown down my credit card right then and there ...
OK. Maybe when waking up next day. Looking at the two products again, after the "cool aide" had worn off and excitement died. After the endless internet research, and common senses prevailed, and my head was clearer, I'd buy AMX. It would be the "safe" decision. Trouble is...there is always the heart...it niggles at you...and won't go away...like the love of your life...
Anyway. I've probably said enough. It was one of those feelings. One from the heart, not head. A "Blink". I regret to say I felt it. But there it is...
Not to mention that the $200 is just the start of it. The also charge a $600 lisencong fee for each instace. So, when you're done you will have paid around $1,000 for each interface. Granted it's a very cool interface compared to anything i've seen.
Congratulations for charging $200 for something your competitors are offering for free!
Where's AMX's free app? There's the virtual KP but that's really a joke and isn't an app since you need to use an internet browser. I don't know C restron but I'm sure they have a real an app and it may be cool & free but I don't know.
Now Savant's app I can only imagine is well worth the $200 app fee and probably the license fee too. If it gives you all the finctionality of a TP that's total tricked out what's a $1000.00 compared to what we spend for TP that can't do 1/2 of what this app/iPhone probably can.
This is the kind of stuff that can leave us in the dust and kill the residential market share. Sure we're completely custom but how many customers really care about brand x over brand y. If it can control an AVR does the customer care if it's a Sony or a Denon.
Where's AMX's free app? There's the virtual KP but that's really a joke and isn't an app since you need to use an internet browser. I don't know C restron but I'm sure they have a real an app and it may be cool & free but I don't know.
Now Savant's app I can only imagine is well worth the $200 app fee and probably the license fee too. If it gives you all the finctionality of a TP that's total tricked out what's a $1000.00 compared to what we spend for TP that can't do 1/2 of what this app/iPhone probably can.
This is the kind of stuff that can leave us in the dust and kill the residential market share. Sure we're completely custom but how many customers really care about brand x over brand y. If it can control an AVR does the customer care if it's a Sony or a Denon.
At the training, (which I haven't made a report, sorry) we saw this. They trainer said that they were selling a lot of systems where they would install 1 touch panel, several On-Screen controls, and iTouch sitting in a wall docking station. This solution was actually qite cool. You basically have a mini touch panel for whole house control that looks and feels like any other iPhone app. also you have thier candy-dish remote type thing to roll your thumb around in a circle to navigate the OSD. It was very responsive.
They stressed and I agree that you must try to get the client to not think of it as a iTouch and use it as such. just think of it as the room remote.
I suppose if you compare it to something like an R4, it's very nice.
Where's AMX's free app? There's the virtual KP but that's really a joke and isn't an app since you need to use an internet browser. I don't know C restron but I'm sure they have a real an app and it may be cool & free but I don't know.
Being a little biased (this way) I will have to say... maybe better. But there are also shortcomings, bringing it towards the same bottom line = Rather not! You see, the grass on the other side might only look greener.
But then, again, I have to say the XPanel and the Flash/NET SDK's are some doors they opened towards affordable / innovative / alternative hardware UI.
No wonder though, looking at their panels lineup...
Has anyone had more experience with Savant recently? It is starting to make a splash in our market and I am wondering if anyone has real-world experience using a Savant system. Is the system running reliably? What are the pros/cons versus AMX?
Has anyone had more experience with Savant recently? It is starting to make a splash in our market and I am wondering if anyone has real-world experience using a Savant system. Is the system running reliably? What are the pros/cons versus AMX?
Thanks,
Jeff
I probably can't tell you as much as you would like because someone else in my company is the Savant guy, but I have seen the system in action on a few jobs, and have heard the inevitable grumblings from installers.
First off, it's very slick, and works well in its paradigm ... which is to say, it does what it's supposed to do, but don't expect a lot of customization or out-of-the-box thinking. The interface is, however, well thought out and I honestly can't say I would want to customize most of it anyway, and there are enough options to avoid the cookie cutter syndrome.
Getting devices to work they don't have a driver for can be a pain. They will eventually get it done, but the progress can be slow.
It's pretty reliable, and I have not heard many complaints about that aspect. The biggest one I hear is "the <whatever> doesn't work yet, but they are working on it."
Except for the on-screen video menus (which, personally, I despise ... I am not a fan at all of having a floating circle of transport controls obscuring my movie image, and then having to navigate to the one I want), it is very much like an AMX.home or VA solution. From the amount of time our Savant guy spends on updates and tweaks, I imagine adding and changing stuff is about on the same order as those as well: cumbersome but doable.
I probably can't tell you as much as you would like because someone else in my company is the Savant guy, but I have seen the system in action on a few jobs, and have heard the inevitable grumblings from installers.
First off, it's very slick, and works well in its paradigm ... which is to say, it does what it's supposed to do, but don't expect a lot of customization or out-of-the-box thinking. The interface is, however, well thought out and I honestly can't say I would want to customize most of it anyway, and there are enough options to avoid the cookie cutter syndrome.
Getting devices to work they don't have a driver for can be a pain. They will eventually get it done, but the progress can be slow.
It's pretty reliable, and I have not heard many complaints about that aspect. The biggest one I hear is "the <whatever> doesn't work yet, but they are working on it."
Except for the on-screen video menus (which, personally, I despise ... I am not a fan at all of having a floating circle of transport controls obscuring my movie image, and then having to navigate to the one I want), it is very much like an AMX.home or VA solution. From the amount of time our Savant guy spends on updates and tweaks, I imagine adding and changing stuff is about on the same order as those as well: cumbersome but doable.
Ditto on this from us. I fianlly got myself out of doing Savant here. It was just frustrating as hell to sit and work with it and think to myself, "I could jsut program this myself instead of waiting for somene in Mass to do it for me..." While there's no 'programming' you still spend about as much time tweaking on the rig to get it to go.
Plus, there's been something like 13 software updates since I got involved with it. This is a pain in that you need to keep versions of software straight depending upon what version the system in question is running. Each download is something akin to 2-6 Gigs a download. So, you have to tie up your internet for a while while you download the image.
It's still too soon with us to have any kind of long-term assesment of how it generally holds up. Based upon what I've seen so far (anecdotally) it's about the same levell of 'quirky' Network issues bring it down just like anything else.
Bear in mind, this is all coming from a very long-time Mac guy...
I did exactly that and nothing came back about the control company. Some iTunes hits and such. What were we supposed to see there today?
That's just it... nothing!
If Apple makes a big change to their software (which they will do, again) do you think they are going to be concerned about Savant. Using an automation system that depends on an OS that changes yearly, is...
That's just it... nothing!
If Apple makes a big change to their software (which they will do, again) do you think they are going to be concerned about Savant. Using an automation system that depends on an OS that changes yearly, is...
Changes are generally for the better, you also don't have to update immediately.
Comments
Accelerated scrolling isn't gesture based though, thats a very non gestural UI thing. I think that the flicking iainshaw is referrering to is somethine along the lines of that availble in the iPhone UI kit. It is an example of an extremely user friendly and intuitive gesture - the way they're implimented lists feel as though they've got mass, they feel 'real'. You can simply grab it and drag them up or down to navigate, if you want to go faster you can throw it, and most importantly, if you have thrown it and you want to stop it so you have time to process the information you simply grab it, exactly as though it was a real life moving object.
iainshaw is definately correct though, just because you mention gesture it doesn't mean that the entire interface is controlled by using motions that take 11 fingers and your tongue, instead the whole concept is to have them emulate an action you might make in the physical world, thus drawing on competancy that you've been developing since birth.
I'm not too sure of how many people go up to a touch panel and say to themselves, "Hmmm - I think I'll listen to some music . . . I'm not sure of what's in my collection, so I'll just browse aimlessly until something jumps out and I'll act surprised." I'm sure it's quite the contrary - a person surely has at the very least a general idea as to what they want to listen to, be it a genre, or a specific artist or album. And I think the innovators who came up with accelerated scrolling knew this.
I have used an iPhone, and have some criticisms about the UI, so I haven't bought one. You mention 'you can flick just a few times', but that is kind of my point, in that it seems to require more of the user with no real increase in function. If I wanted to search for Warren Zevon in a long list, the last thing I want to do is scroll all the way down the list. That seems stupid to me since the list is in sorted order already, and scrolling down it ignores that advantage. I would rather press a button that takes me to the end of the list immediately whereupon I will likely find Zevon without much trouble, than watch screens full of blurry text but that's just me
Paul
Out of curiosity, what are your criticisms of the iPhone/iPod Touch UI (sorry my inner user experience geek is really interested)?
Personally I think the way apple have combatted the disadvantage of the flick list you described is one of the best usability features of the interface. If you have a longer list open the entire alphabet followed by a numeric character (#) is overlayed down the right hand side of the display if you want to jump to any point simply tap the letter, or you can drag along it to scroll through sections segmented by their first character.
P.S. Appologies for having a hand in converting this thread to a discussion purely on interface and user experience design, I tend to get a bit excited
Fine - Led Zeppelin.
It's coming either way, and I think we all know that AMX will need to compete with it. How? Not sure. But you will have to admit, as someone pointed out already the "younger" generation, will want it. And when they pick up a $300 iPod, and then pick up a $5,000 remote that can do all these fancy things like turn on lights, and the TV and a bunch of other neat stuff - but when they want to scroll, surely some (if not most) will say "Hmm - why can't this $5,000 (fill in the blank) do what my iTouch does? And that's only $300!"
Moral of the story: blurry text is in.
I have found that with Apple products they discount usability for the sake of a cool design, or think they are the same thing which they are not. That is their trade off and I understand it, I just don't prefer it. The older iPod that had the scroll wheel was a cool design but scrolling through a long list by continually spinning your finger around and around was silly I thought and could have been implemented much better but it would have 'broken' their design paradigm. Similarly, the two button mouse would have ruined their design so they stuck with a one button mouse which I thought was silly. There are more examples but I won't bore you with them.
I don't have an iPhone to test, so I will ask iPhone users how much user input (button presses/gestures etc) is required to make a phone call to someone in your contact list?
Paul
I think this conversation warrants being transferred to a thread of its own. I know there have been discussions about TP4 wishlist items in the past, but I think a general discussion of UI paradigms/technology would attract a lot of attention if not hidden in this thread.
Regards,
Ahem - newly promoted **Senior Member**. I feel special.
(Ruining the neighbourhood since 2007. They'll let anyone in here
I did just that Jamie. It was great. I totally agree with all your illustrated AMX strengths. They appeal to the "head". But the trouble is sometimes the "heart" can over rule even the most logical and rational of decision making.
A couple of months back I travelled all the way over from the other side of the Pacific to take a look at Savant. I'm one those "high end" users you speak about, who like the "WOW" factor.
My honest, initial impression for what it's worth: I was blown away by Savant. It was all in the GUI...
Putting up AMX vs Savant: The controllers/control together...AMX looked positively "yesterday". It reminded me of the feeling when I switched from Windows XP to Apple OSX. Or when I first used Sonos, after stuffing around trying to get other music controllers to work. I couldn't help that "feeling" then. And I couldn't stop myself from having the same feeling about Savant either (sorry)
Savant had a much better feel about it ..if you've read the book "Blink", you'll know what I mean
If I could have brought back a Savant system, I would have thrown down my credit card right then and there ...
OK. Maybe when waking up next day. Looking at the two products again, after the "cool aide" had worn off and excitement died. After the endless internet research, and common senses prevailed, and my head was clearer, I'd buy AMX. It would be the "safe" decision. Trouble is...there is always the heart...it niggles at you...and won't go away...like the love of your life...
Anyway. I've probably said enough. It was one of those feelings. One from the heart, not head. A "Blink". I regret to say I felt it. But there it is...
Good news for Savant iPhone integration, it ranks in the top ten most expensive apps in the app store!
Congratulations for charging $200 for something your competitors are offering for free!
http://gizmodo.com/5335877/the-10-most-expensive-iphone-apps-gallery//gallery?selectedImage=1
Not to mention that the $200 is just the start of it. The also charge a $600 lisencong fee for each instace. So, when you're done you will have paid around $1,000 for each interface. Granted it's a very cool interface compared to anything i've seen.
Now Savant's app I can only imagine is well worth the $200 app fee and probably the license fee too. If it gives you all the finctionality of a TP that's total tricked out what's a $1000.00 compared to what we spend for TP that can't do 1/2 of what this app/iPhone probably can.
This is the kind of stuff that can leave us in the dust and kill the residential market share. Sure we're completely custom but how many customers really care about brand x over brand y. If it can control an AVR does the customer care if it's a Sony or a Denon.
At the training, (which I haven't made a report, sorry) we saw this. They trainer said that they were selling a lot of systems where they would install 1 touch panel, several On-Screen controls, and iTouch sitting in a wall docking station. This solution was actually qite cool. You basically have a mini touch panel for whole house control that looks and feels like any other iPhone app. also you have thier candy-dish remote type thing to roll your thumb around in a circle to navigate the OSD. It was very responsive.
They stressed and I agree that you must try to get the client to not think of it as a iTouch and use it as such. just think of it as the room remote.
I suppose if you compare it to something like an R4, it's very nice.
Being a little biased (this way) I will have to say... maybe better. But there are also shortcomings, bringing it towards the same bottom line = Rather not! You see, the grass on the other side might only look greener.
But then, again, I have to say the XPanel and the Flash/NET SDK's are some doors they opened towards affordable / innovative / alternative hardware UI.
No wonder though, looking at their panels lineup...
Has anyone had more experience with Savant recently? It is starting to make a splash in our market and I am wondering if anyone has real-world experience using a Savant system. Is the system running reliably? What are the pros/cons versus AMX?
Thanks,
Jeff
I probably can't tell you as much as you would like because someone else in my company is the Savant guy, but I have seen the system in action on a few jobs, and have heard the inevitable grumblings from installers.
First off, it's very slick, and works well in its paradigm ... which is to say, it does what it's supposed to do, but don't expect a lot of customization or out-of-the-box thinking. The interface is, however, well thought out and I honestly can't say I would want to customize most of it anyway, and there are enough options to avoid the cookie cutter syndrome.
Getting devices to work they don't have a driver for can be a pain. They will eventually get it done, but the progress can be slow.
It's pretty reliable, and I have not heard many complaints about that aspect. The biggest one I hear is "the <whatever> doesn't work yet, but they are working on it."
Except for the on-screen video menus (which, personally, I despise ... I am not a fan at all of having a floating circle of transport controls obscuring my movie image, and then having to navigate to the one I want), it is very much like an AMX.home or VA solution. From the amount of time our Savant guy spends on updates and tweaks, I imagine adding and changing stuff is about on the same order as those as well: cumbersome but doable.
Thanks. That helps a lot.
Jeff
Ditto on this from us. I fianlly got myself out of doing Savant here. It was just frustrating as hell to sit and work with it and think to myself, "I could jsut program this myself instead of waiting for somene in Mass to do it for me..." While there's no 'programming' you still spend about as much time tweaking on the rig to get it to go.
Plus, there's been something like 13 software updates since I got involved with it. This is a pain in that you need to keep versions of software straight depending upon what version the system in question is running. Each download is something akin to 2-6 Gigs a download. So, you have to tie up your internet for a while while you download the image.
It's still too soon with us to have any kind of long-term assesment of how it generally holds up. Based upon what I've seen so far (anecdotally) it's about the same levell of 'quirky' Network issues bring it down just like anything else.
Bear in mind, this is all coming from a very long-time Mac guy...
I did exactly that and nothing came back about the control company. Some iTunes hits and such. What were we supposed to see there today?
That's just it... nothing!
If Apple makes a big change to their software (which they will do, again) do you think they are going to be concerned about Savant. Using an automation system that depends on an OS that changes yearly, is...
Changes are generally for the better, you also don't have to update immediately.