So going with Savant means your going with Mac and now your married with the pros and cons of Macs? If something happens to the Mac, is it serviced by Savant or Mac? Where is the demarcation of a Savant Problem or a Mac Problem? Savant seems to be a non dedicated solution where AMX is a dedicated solution and there is plenty discussion in that vein. What ever happened to Ongoer from Simtrol? I believe that is a PC based solution like Savant but with a more commercial bent.
So going with Savant means your going with Mac and now your married with the pros and cons of Macs? If something happens to the Mac, is it serviced by Savant or Mac? Where is the demarcation of a Savant Problem or a Mac Problem? Savant seems to be a non dedicated solution where AMX is a dedicated solution and there is plenty discussion in that vein. What ever happened to Ongoer from Simtrol? I believe that is a PC based solution like Savant but with a more commercial bent.
Savant is a service center. So, they fix it. They also do overnight advance replacement if the stuff breaks.
If you can't write custom programming for it, how do you interface with third-party hardware not already in its database?
The short answer is that they create xml profiles. for gear they don't have there's a couple week turnaround for simple stuff. 3-4 weeks for heavier items such as media servers and whatnot. The list is pretty full already. After all, they've been out in the public for over a year.
The integrator can also write profiles if they've taken the classes so they stay in spec. The rule is you have to share it with the world, however. Anything your write eventually makes its way back to the mothership.
I'm not a big fan of waiting for profiles myself. We're the kind of place that usually gets the latest/greatest stuff. I'm always working on brand new protocol for stuff. If I had to wait on AMX, I'd be in big trouble.
I only heard one horror story from a dealer on this. He had to wait a week for Savant to get a non-working profile fixed.
Any one who is part of their 'Excellence In A/V' program will have profiles that are tested and developed with the partner and you can call either party for support. The Lutron people were there and had in interesting feature that raised a lot of eyebrows. In Savant, you can open up the Lutron file and it's imported into blueprint. It just shows up as services and you just assign the buttons. All the Lutorn labels, load names, keypad addresses, etc... come right over.
The Lutron thing is the coolest part of the whole thing, and I thought that AMX was buddy buddy with Lutron. I spend hours loading Lutron device addresses into NetLinx, it's a huge waste of time.
I'd like to get back to the whole thing about not needing a programmer. It sounds like you need someone very good with Macs, that knows their way in and out of multiple pieces of software, keep up with all the latest protocols or modules for devices, configure all the hardware devices, get sent to training, and configure a system to fill a clients needs... Is that a programmer? or at least a less skilled (cheaper) programmer? maybe a 'Control System Configurator'?
All these control systems that are based on technology that isn't designed for control always seem to crash and burn. Control is a very low priority for MS or Apple so their products are not going to be built for it. An RTOS is very different from a multi-user, multi-threaded OS, so I don't see much point in forcing one paradigm on the other.
Paul
One message is getting lost here - Savant has UI capability that eclipses AMX
Eric's pulled together a fantastic personal view / appraisal / reporting piece here and I thank him again for that. Let me focus on one part of what he's saying. Here's an experienced AMX guy saying "you know what, I've always thought it was a bit flakey, but that was good enough (as in it was fit for purpose) and sheesh the UI potential opened up by having access to Quartz and the world of OSX goodies really makes you think....."
Apologies to Eric, that's one hell of an edited soundbite but I want to tease out one thread of what you were describing.
Where am I coming from. I'm a Business Owner and a Programmer - I employ much better programmers than me because that's a sensible thing to do but I still hack some of our code (was doing some today in fact) and do some of our TP work. As the former I need to understand what's going to be viable as a business model in the future. I can't get committed to platforms out of loyalty to platforms, I have to be committed to platforms that make sense in terms of where we see the market being in 2-3 years time (I think a longer horizon in this industry from the perspective of a Custom Installer is a bit fanciful).
Savant may not be a Craptron or AMX killer but it demonstrates some killer elements. I'd forget that it doesn't run on a RTOS, that it has a dependency on XML profiles that may not be immediately available, that it is a different model altogether. I'd focus very much on the fact that it might make a beautifully crafted and elegant AMX solution look prehistoric and do so while staying on its feet... That might make it genuinely saleable and if it does then the game shifts a bit.
I'm not suggesting my business is about to run into the arms of Savant - All our work is AMX powered somewhere and I'm keen that it stays that way - I'm saying that if a Business Owner ignored at least evaluating this then they shouldn't be running a Custom Install business. Savant have really failed to gain traction in the UK and I know the guys at Genesis pretty well. I think we should have another look at it. Maybe call the review Operation "Maginot Line" for all you military historians out there.
My owner was able to go to the same shindig as Eric. From all the details between Eric's account and my owner's I am excited about the UI possibilities.
I know in AMX Training they always talk about tools/tool boxes. With the tools Savant uses it opens up a whole different set of imagination of how/what a central information center can be. I have worked hard to make my touch panels not remotes, but places that information can be found. For those that understand that mind set it is hard to believe another manufacture didn't just give you a tool box, they opened up Home Depot and said, have at it.
I don't know when, but Savant may be visiting us soon. I can honestly say I'm excited and skeptical. I like many of you on the forums I am pretty loyal to AMX, but if the TV still turns on, who really cares?
When the iPod came to market with iTunes it completely changed how we use and view music. When the iPhone came out it should have been a HUGE wake up call to people making touch screens. Many of the PC companies rushed to emulate or license Apple's technology, why didn't our control companies even venture into pursuing it? I love and hate watching the painful strides our industry makes when new technology comes to mainstream. I'm not saying Savant is going to take substantial business away from AMX/Craptron, but who's to say it won't? If it is tested and tried and is found reliable, the client loves the UI, the support is there for our technicians/programmers...who's to say it won't?
If it is tested and tried and if it is found reliable, and if the client loves the UI, and if the support is there for our technicians/programmers...who's to say it won't?
That's 4 ifs. AMX will be waiting in the else block.
Originally Posted by jazzwyld
If it is tested and tried and if it is found reliable, and if the client loves the UI, and if the support is there for our technicians/programmers...who's to say it won't?
That's 4 ifs. AMX will be waiting in the else block.
Perhaps I wasn't being clear. The point I was making was that those 4 IFs have pretty much happened. Using your analogy, we won't get to the ELSE block.
Also, I think there's a general tendency for us AMX people to try and compare Savant to previous PC based automations systems. (like Control4 and whatnot...)
Perhaps a better way to think about it is an NI-X100 with a Mac driven touch panel that is not using VNC or whatnot.
They have boxes that look much like an NI controller. The processor lives inside the box and happens to be a Mac Miini with a custom confiiguration on bootup.
The major difference is that they also have built-in video/audio switching. (HDMI, Component,Audio)
So, we're not talking about a PC box with a whole slew of PCI cards and masses of RS-232 wires spewing from the back.
Regarding the RTOS... Most of the native part of the Savant software is UNIX and not Mac. say what you will about Mac, but UNIX is about as bullet-proof as it gets in the computing world. So, technically AMX is operating one step closer to the real processor. That is a distinct advantage for sure. You, I and the few thousand people who do what we do know that. Do the dealers who are drinking the Kookade, howver?
The examples of inferior technology winning over superior are many and varied. (VHS vs. Beta anyone???) One of my points was that this might be a case of two things. 1) they have some very clear advantages over AMX that cannot be overcome with their current technology and business model and 2) the areas that AMX has the clear advantage are only apparent to us. If you try to explain point 2 to some of the people who are putting up the money, you're in the realm where their eyes glaze over.
The 'programmerless environment' thing is a paper tiger. I'm sure once the numbers come in everyone will find that they're still spending about the same amount of time overall on the project. You're just fudging where that time gets spent.
the best example of this was when we saw how Savant does a doorbell.
In AMX land, the doorbell button gets pushed, I run a quick loop to switch over the 32 House Audio zones from wherever they were to the doorbell sound channel, play the bong bong sound and run another quick loop to set it all back to where it was.
In Savant Land, you go into Apple Automator and create 64 separate events to Switch Zone 1 to the doorbell channel, Pause, Switch Zone 2 to Doorbell channel, Pause, Switch Zone 3 to doorbell channel, Pause,etc..... Play the bong-bong sound, Pause, Switch Zone 1 back to where it was, Pause, Switch Zone 2 back to where it was, Pause, Switch Zone 3 to where it wass, Pause, etc...
Each event has about 6 or 7 drop-down menus that have to be set for someting. You can copy an event and paste, but you still have to change a few drop-down menu settings on each one. So, just how much 'programming' did you save?
Did your company come up with a plan to support legacy projects? My fear of making the control company switch, is that over time there will be less and less employees to support our existing customer base. Right now, I am one of the few here that really knows landmark and and the only one that knows craptron (everyone else has left over the years) and whenever there is a service call, I get roped in. It's great job security, but a real problem. Also will AMX cut you off if you don't do enough business? If so, how can you get replacement parts? Thoughts?
Did your company come up with a plan to support legacy projects? My fear of making the control company switch, is that over time there will be less and less employees to support our existing customer base. Right now, I am one of the few here that really knows landmark and and the only one that knows craptron (everyone else has left over the years) and whenever there is a service call, I get roped in. It's great job security, but a real problem. Also will AMX cut you off if you don't do enough business? If so, how can you get replacement parts? Thoughts?
At some point, you should use this type of opportunity to upgrade your existing clients. Explain to them the extra costs to them for continued support of discontinued product lines. Get the bug planted in their head that when the next piece fails (or when they plan a remodel of the house), they might want to consider an upgrade. Work with your current control company to provide an upgrade discount. Explain the benefits of the new system over the old one. You might even think proactively and get them thinking about an upgrade before a failure occurs. This would allow them to budget for the new system and do research without feeling like they are forced into a decision.
A lot of times, upgrades are an easier sell than going after new clients. The client is already familiar with your work. They are familiar with automation and control systems and are better able to tell you how they want to use their system. They often times are willing to move up the ladder because they feel more comfortable with integrated solutions and are interested in trying things they may have passed on the first time. The other nice thing about upgrades is the short time period from approval to installation. Instead of having to work a project over 2-4 years, you can go from start to finish in a few weeks or months.
Did your company come up with a plan to support legacy projects? My fear of making the control company switch, is that over time there will be less and less employees to support our existing customer base. Right now, I am one of the few here that really knows landmark and and the only one that knows craptron (everyone else has left over the years) and whenever there is a service call, I get roped in. It's great job security, but a real problem. Also will AMX cut you off if you don't do enough business? If so, how can you get replacement parts? Thoughts?
I'm not totally privy to what my boss's opinion is. What I've been told is that we do not see it as a switch. We have over 30 active projects right now with AMX that we are constantly changing/modifying at our client's request. Those people are not going anywhere soon. We still have a tech who was landmark/phast and still have a few systems out there (beleive it or not) that are still functional. He gets those gigs when they come up.
Our chief designer is still very loyal to AMX. His projects are typically veyr complex and custom and he just doesn't see Savant fitting the bill. He was there with me in Mass. and has seen the interface. But, he still thinks AMX is the way to go.
So, as far as I know, we're not adopting the term 'legacy' yet.
As far as my own personal job security goes, I'll be heading up both things, so I'll be plenty busy either way.
Our chief designer is still very loyal to AMX. His projects are typically veyr complex and custom and he just doesn't see Savant fitting the bill. He was there with me in Mass. and has seen the interface. But, he still thinks AMX is the way to go.
Just out of curiosity what does he see as limitations to Savant compared to AMX? Or what do you think his objections are to moving forward with Savant? Do they use I/O, and relay boards? Enough can be said about the UI, but as far as design-wise, what sets them apart?
Just out of curiosity what does he see as limitations to Savant compared to AMX? Or what do you think his objections are to moving forward with Savant? Do they use I/O, and relay boards? Enough can be said about the UI, but as far as design-wise, what sets them apart?
His clients really do like a lot of customization. To be frank, I think it's possible to get the same kinds of things done in both systems. With Savant, there's a lot more hoops to junp to get there.
During our discssions with our people who were at Savant, I accidentally coined a phrase that kinda stuck. I said that with Savant, there are a lot of built-in 'NOs' I said this as both a description of its scope and also as a negative statement about our company's process. We seem to have a credo that we'll do anything the client wants no matter how absurd or crazy it may seem. (I'm paraphrasing, of course...) Our official version of that statement is a "Can-do attitude..."
But, honestly, there's not a lot of difference in the feature set and possibilities, in my opinion.
I suspect that the deisnger is just very concerned about reliablity because he's the one that gets the calls at all hours of the day when our clients cannot watch one of their 20 TVs.
I suspect that the deisnger is just very concerned about reliablity because he's the one that gets the calls at all hours of the day when our clients cannot watch one of their 20 TVs.
Seeing how I am the designer/programmer I also get those calls. Do they have a running diagnostic or a way to tell what may not be working (i.e. Notification/Diagnostic windows)?
I remember at Cedia when I was shown around the savant programming platform ever time I asked if they could do something a new window got popped up. As far as crazy an absurd. We had a client who we have made the AMX system also an irrigation system. It is monitoring a contact for soil moisture, time of day, and temp outside. I just wondered since that is actually very simple for me to write code wise, if Savant would simply be a task to do something that simple. Greg got all excited about xml profiles, but since I haven't written one, I have no idea the format or what type of text that uses...any clues to that? Is building xml like building java. I've parsed it...not created it.
Seeing how I am the designer/programmer I also get those calls. Do they have a running diagnostic or a way to tell what may not be working (i.e. Notification/Diagnostic windows)?
I remember at Cedia when I was shown around the savant programming platform ever time I asked if they could do something a new window got popped up. As far as crazy an absurd. We had a client who we have made the AMX system also an irrigation system. It is monitoring a contact for soil moisture, time of day, and temp outside. I just wondered since that is actually very simple for me to write code wise, if Savant would simply be a task to do something that simple. Greg got all excited about xml profiles, but since I haven't written one, I have no idea the format or what type of text that uses...any clues to that? Is building xml like building java. I've parsed it...not created it.
Yes, they have a pretty nice system monitor utility. It's everything you'd expect. Has a main window with a green-yellow-red light kind of dashboard and you can drill down to deeper stuff. However, for us programmers, it'd be a bit silly since we'd be more interested in the actual workinds of the program.
xml is just essentially creating data tables. no biggie really. You just need to know the format. I already use xml fo things like my data tables for comcast / directv / dishnetwork channel line ups that get broadcast out to all my masters each night. You can make xml docs straight from excel spread sheets.
xml is just essentially creating data tables. no biggie really. You just need to know the format. I already use xml fo things like my data tables for comcast / directv / dishnetwork channel line ups that get broadcast out to all my masters each night. You can make xml docs straight from excel spread sheets.
I've integrated Excel before, but never tried to play with xml. so xml really isn't "send_string dvDevice 'Do it'" type of programming. Just not familiar with it at all.
As far as channel lineups, what are you pushing to the Masters? Program Material? or just the actual channel Lineup 4-CBS...etc? Just curious
I've integrated Excel before, but never tried to play with xml. so xml really isn't "send_string dvDevice 'Do it'" type of programming. Just not familiar with it at all.
As far as channel lineups, what are you pushing to the Masters? Program Material? or just the actual channel Lineup 4-CBS...etc? Just curious
Oh, nothing so high and mighty...
I just send a big data that says essentially, "this week CNN Headline News is Channel 24 on Comcast'.
The client has a button with the CNN graphic on it. The data table populates the IR flashes that go to the cable box. That way when Comcast or whoever decides to change their channel numbers, I only have to update one thing. That then is pushed out to all my masters and the client's channel presets aren't broke.
My data table is something like
Chan_data_chanNum.Comcasts[my button number for CNN]='202'
Chan_data_chanName.Comcasts[my button number for CNN]='CNN'
etc...
What doesn't change for me is the butotn number for CNN.
Ah ha... I do a little different. I let the client choose their favorites (they have 70 to choose from), with 2-15 cable boxes ya never know who likes what. I have a default 30 that I load, but after that the client can create their own favorites and if Comcast or DirecTV changes their channel line-up the client can simply change the channel. I don't use graphics I just use text...just a preference.
Sorry I changed some of the focus from the Savant post, but I believe this post is a wakening call to, or should be since over 1,000 people have viewed it.
Ah ha... I do a little different. I let the client choose their favorites (they have 70 to choose from), with 2-15 cable boxes ya never know who likes what. I have a default 30 that I load, but after that the client can create their own favorites and if Comcast or DirecTV changes their channel line-up the client can simply change the channel. I don't use graphics I just use text...just a preference.
Sorry I changed some of the focus from the Savant post, but I believe this post is a wakening call to, or should be since over 1,000 people have viewed it.
Your clients have more personal ambition than mine, obviously. Because doing what you do would actually require them to phyically type in a number. Who has time for that???
Yeah, I'm still curious to hear a responce from AMX myself too. I think all the comments made (both defending and condeming) have had merit and are worthy of discussion.
By the way, say hi to your boss. Hopefully, he didn't think it was too big a dweeb...
Yeah, I'm still curious to hear a responce from AMX myself too. I think all the comments made (both defending and condeming) have had merit and are worthy of discussion.
By the way, say hi to your boss. Hopefully, he didn't think it was too big a dweeb...
I would love to see a company response from AMX. I mean it takes "nerve" to call AMX and Craptron legacy, but with all the details we've gotten from you and other sources there is some proof in the pudding, preferably chocolate. AMX needs to change the game when it comes to UI, its all about the UI for a client...well UI and reliability. If they don't they could be looking at fewer and fewer Resi dealers, since that is the focus for Savant. There are some big name C-tron accounts that switched over to Savant, one of them in the mountains of Colorado. Now whether they are making a big switch or bringing on a new control system has yet to be seen, but they are one of the larger C-tron accounts in the U.S. That's gotta say something.
Yeah I told him to listen to what you were saying, because if nothing else you were one of the smart people in the room...gotta watch out for those people, they cause trouble. . I think he respected your opinion, I've even shared with him your forum posts so he could see a slightly biased (we're all biased) technical viewpoint.
1. Stop flattering this new company with all of this chatter. Let them earn a reputation with hard work and good product.
2. If your ability to sell, program and install AMX is your only source of livelyhood, broaden your horizons. Your future success should be based on your skills as an integrator, not just as an AMX dealer. I do not beleive in putting my eggs in anyone else's basket but my own.
1. Stop flattering this new company with all of this chatter. Let them earn a reputation with hard work and good product.
2. If your ability to sell, program and install AMX is your only source of livelyhood, broaden your horizons. Your future success should be based on your skills as an integrator, not just as an AMX dealer. I do not beleive in putting my eggs in anyone else's basket but my own.
agreed. Like I said, as far as we're concerned, we're still AMX and about 5 other control products as well.
I have read all of the threads detailing all the thoughts, ideas & opinions you all have about Savant. I thought I would take an opportunity to throw in my two cents from an AMX point of view. I am the Regional Sales Manager for AMX Midwest-Residential Channel. I am involved on a daily basis on the sales & system design side. And just so you all know, most of my professional career prior to AMX was as an owner on the dealer side. So I do have an in depth understanding from both sides of the fence.
First off Eric, my sincere thanks to you for taking the time to give us an in depth assessment as to how you see things today with Savant. I appreciate your candid, honest feedback.
Simply stated, we are watching all of our competition very closely. Savant is certainly on that list. There is no question that from a UI perspective, they are showing something unique. I can see how dealer owners and sales teams are attracted to this because of the emotional appeal. Let's face it, as an industry we have built our niche in selling the emotional response tied to technology. Hi-end clients looked to be WOW'd. Being able to provide a native Apple graphical interface that is dialed in for a residential project is attractive.
Let's take a couple steps back and look at this from a big picture perspective... To keep us all centered, let me highlight/re-iterate some important points:
1). First and foremost, let's not forget that we have been in business for over 27 years and I can tell you for a fact, we couldn?t be more solvent financially. We are in this for the long haul. I can't speak to the financial status of Savant, but they are new, with that comes inherent risks no matter what anybody says. This is not taking a shot at Savant, I am simply stating a fact. There is no substitute for longevity. Either you have it or you don't. It's not that dealers shouldn't do business with a new company, it's simply to point out the reality of these risks especially given these difficult economic times. In 3 years, if a new start-up company is gone (and BTW, MANY have come and gone in 27 years), who will care how cool the UI's are.
2). In the upper tier of the market sector, integrators will always need a FULLY customizable solution. This need will simply never go away as long as the wealthy exist in this country.
3). Our competitors have limited UI Options. We have a UI for every application and more to come very soon. Stay tuned on that...
4). Savant is heavily married to Apple. In some ways that can be a good thing because of the power that Apple brings to the table, but when the dust settles, you still have a small integration company, that has many of their eggs in a basket that they have do not have total control over. We are an open architecture solution that is completely self sufficient. We rely on no one but ourselves and our 27 years of experience.
5). When is it ever a good idea to be at the mercy of the manufacturer to resolve the integration of non-supported gear and/or sub-systems. We provide the solution that empowers you the integrator/programmer to manage this as you see fit. Hi-end clients are not about excuses. You need to have total control to respond as they demand.
6).And last but certainly not least, from an equipment/hardware perspective, there is no cost advantage with Savant. In fact, they are more expensive across the board, which frankly is surprising when you consider our price points.
There is a reason why we are the control system of choice in mission critical applications. There is a reason why we control all the Apple owned Retail Stores in the entire world from our Dallas HQ. Yes, the company that Savant is based upon has us controlling all their stores. We control the music, lights, HVAC, Security and content distribution to over 200 locations from one control room in the belly of our main office.
The United States Government uses our solution as a standard in the White House, Barack Obama has an NXT-1700 sitting on his desk in the Press Room. We have our technology in the Pentagon, Camp David, Iraqi War Room NOC. We control Disney World, Bill Gates' house. We have our solutions in over 70% of all the Fortune 500 Companies. We have thousands upon thousands of successful residential installations across the world. We are a proven, tried and true solution.
Savant seems to be a good company, run by good people. Leveraging (sorry for the usage of the word) the Apple technology has its inherent advantages. And probably does open up some aspects of integration that could be enticing. We do not snub our nose to the competition. You will continue to see advancements in our solution in the residential space that will further solidify our position as an industry leader, while maintaining a platform that keeps you completely empowered. Please stay tuned as I know you all will.
Let's keep a calm cool perspective on this. We are all diehard AMXers either on the integrator side, programming side and with me, the manufacturing side. Please trust that the powers that be at AMX know exactly what's going on with all of our competition.
Feel free to contact me directly if you would like to discuss this further.
How is AMX limiting you from making good UIs?
Paul
Paul, he may be referring to the lack of a stronger UI engine, and possibly Flash. I know that's something I'd like to see - even though I'm a Flash-dummy, but have a feeling that will never happen. (Though I'm open to eat my words.)
Had a meeting with our guy. He wouldn't talk about what was coming at InfoComm (no problem with that from us) but I got the feeling there was something coming they are proud of.
Paul, he may be referring to the lack of a stronger UI engine, and possibly Flash. I know that's something I'd like to see - even though I'm a Flash-dummy, but have a feeling that will never happen. (Though I'm open to eat my words.)
Oh God, I hope they don't start supporting Flash. I hate Flash websites, so I can't imagine I would like Flash touch panels. UI design always seems to go out the window when Flash is used.
Paul
Comments
Savant is a service center. So, they fix it. They also do overnight advance replacement if the stuff breaks.
The short answer is that they create xml profiles. for gear they don't have there's a couple week turnaround for simple stuff. 3-4 weeks for heavier items such as media servers and whatnot. The list is pretty full already. After all, they've been out in the public for over a year.
The integrator can also write profiles if they've taken the classes so they stay in spec. The rule is you have to share it with the world, however. Anything your write eventually makes its way back to the mothership.
I'm not a big fan of waiting for profiles myself. We're the kind of place that usually gets the latest/greatest stuff. I'm always working on brand new protocol for stuff. If I had to wait on AMX, I'd be in big trouble.
I only heard one horror story from a dealer on this. He had to wait a week for Savant to get a non-working profile fixed.
Any one who is part of their 'Excellence In A/V' program will have profiles that are tested and developed with the partner and you can call either party for support. The Lutron people were there and had in interesting feature that raised a lot of eyebrows. In Savant, you can open up the Lutron file and it's imported into blueprint. It just shows up as services and you just assign the buttons. All the Lutorn labels, load names, keypad addresses, etc... come right over.
I'd like to get back to the whole thing about not needing a programmer. It sounds like you need someone very good with Macs, that knows their way in and out of multiple pieces of software, keep up with all the latest protocols or modules for devices, configure all the hardware devices, get sent to training, and configure a system to fill a clients needs... Is that a programmer? or at least a less skilled (cheaper) programmer? maybe a 'Control System Configurator'?
But dam, that Lutron loader is cool..
Paul
Eric's pulled together a fantastic personal view / appraisal / reporting piece here and I thank him again for that. Let me focus on one part of what he's saying. Here's an experienced AMX guy saying "you know what, I've always thought it was a bit flakey, but that was good enough (as in it was fit for purpose) and sheesh the UI potential opened up by having access to Quartz and the world of OSX goodies really makes you think....."
Apologies to Eric, that's one hell of an edited soundbite but I want to tease out one thread of what you were describing.
Where am I coming from. I'm a Business Owner and a Programmer - I employ much better programmers than me because that's a sensible thing to do but I still hack some of our code (was doing some today in fact) and do some of our TP work. As the former I need to understand what's going to be viable as a business model in the future. I can't get committed to platforms out of loyalty to platforms, I have to be committed to platforms that make sense in terms of where we see the market being in 2-3 years time (I think a longer horizon in this industry from the perspective of a Custom Installer is a bit fanciful).
Savant may not be a Craptron or AMX killer but it demonstrates some killer elements. I'd forget that it doesn't run on a RTOS, that it has a dependency on XML profiles that may not be immediately available, that it is a different model altogether. I'd focus very much on the fact that it might make a beautifully crafted and elegant AMX solution look prehistoric and do so while staying on its feet... That might make it genuinely saleable and if it does then the game shifts a bit.
I'm not suggesting my business is about to run into the arms of Savant - All our work is AMX powered somewhere and I'm keen that it stays that way - I'm saying that if a Business Owner ignored at least evaluating this then they shouldn't be running a Custom Install business. Savant have really failed to gain traction in the UK and I know the guys at Genesis pretty well. I think we should have another look at it. Maybe call the review Operation "Maginot Line" for all you military historians out there.
My owner was able to go to the same shindig as Eric. From all the details between Eric's account and my owner's I am excited about the UI possibilities.
I know in AMX Training they always talk about tools/tool boxes. With the tools Savant uses it opens up a whole different set of imagination of how/what a central information center can be. I have worked hard to make my touch panels not remotes, but places that information can be found. For those that understand that mind set it is hard to believe another manufacture didn't just give you a tool box, they opened up Home Depot and said, have at it.
I don't know when, but Savant may be visiting us soon. I can honestly say I'm excited and skeptical. I like many of you on the forums I am pretty loyal to AMX, but if the TV still turns on, who really cares?
When the iPod came to market with iTunes it completely changed how we use and view music. When the iPhone came out it should have been a HUGE wake up call to people making touch screens. Many of the PC companies rushed to emulate or license Apple's technology, why didn't our control companies even venture into pursuing it? I love and hate watching the painful strides our industry makes when new technology comes to mainstream. I'm not saying Savant is going to take substantial business away from AMX/Craptron, but who's to say it won't? If it is tested and tried and is found reliable, the client loves the UI, the support is there for our technicians/programmers...who's to say it won't?
That's 4 ifs. AMX will be waiting in the else block.
Perhaps I wasn't being clear. The point I was making was that those 4 IFs have pretty much happened. Using your analogy, we won't get to the ELSE block.
Also, I think there's a general tendency for us AMX people to try and compare Savant to previous PC based automations systems. (like Control4 and whatnot...)
Perhaps a better way to think about it is an NI-X100 with a Mac driven touch panel that is not using VNC or whatnot.
They have boxes that look much like an NI controller. The processor lives inside the box and happens to be a Mac Miini with a custom confiiguration on bootup.
The major difference is that they also have built-in video/audio switching. (HDMI, Component,Audio)
So, we're not talking about a PC box with a whole slew of PCI cards and masses of RS-232 wires spewing from the back.
Regarding the RTOS... Most of the native part of the Savant software is UNIX and not Mac. say what you will about Mac, but UNIX is about as bullet-proof as it gets in the computing world. So, technically AMX is operating one step closer to the real processor. That is a distinct advantage for sure. You, I and the few thousand people who do what we do know that. Do the dealers who are drinking the Kookade, howver?
The examples of inferior technology winning over superior are many and varied. (VHS vs. Beta anyone???) One of my points was that this might be a case of two things. 1) they have some very clear advantages over AMX that cannot be overcome with their current technology and business model and 2) the areas that AMX has the clear advantage are only apparent to us. If you try to explain point 2 to some of the people who are putting up the money, you're in the realm where their eyes glaze over.
The 'programmerless environment' thing is a paper tiger. I'm sure once the numbers come in everyone will find that they're still spending about the same amount of time overall on the project. You're just fudging where that time gets spent.
the best example of this was when we saw how Savant does a doorbell.
In AMX land, the doorbell button gets pushed, I run a quick loop to switch over the 32 House Audio zones from wherever they were to the doorbell sound channel, play the bong bong sound and run another quick loop to set it all back to where it was.
In Savant Land, you go into Apple Automator and create 64 separate events to Switch Zone 1 to the doorbell channel, Pause, Switch Zone 2 to Doorbell channel, Pause, Switch Zone 3 to doorbell channel, Pause,etc..... Play the bong-bong sound, Pause, Switch Zone 1 back to where it was, Pause, Switch Zone 2 back to where it was, Pause, Switch Zone 3 to where it wass, Pause, etc...
Each event has about 6 or 7 drop-down menus that have to be set for someting. You can copy an event and paste, but you still have to change a few drop-down menu settings on each one. So, just how much 'programming' did you save?
Did your company come up with a plan to support legacy projects? My fear of making the control company switch, is that over time there will be less and less employees to support our existing customer base. Right now, I am one of the few here that really knows landmark and and the only one that knows craptron (everyone else has left over the years) and whenever there is a service call, I get roped in. It's great job security, but a real problem. Also will AMX cut you off if you don't do enough business? If so, how can you get replacement parts? Thoughts?
At some point, you should use this type of opportunity to upgrade your existing clients. Explain to them the extra costs to them for continued support of discontinued product lines. Get the bug planted in their head that when the next piece fails (or when they plan a remodel of the house), they might want to consider an upgrade. Work with your current control company to provide an upgrade discount. Explain the benefits of the new system over the old one. You might even think proactively and get them thinking about an upgrade before a failure occurs. This would allow them to budget for the new system and do research without feeling like they are forced into a decision.
A lot of times, upgrades are an easier sell than going after new clients. The client is already familiar with your work. They are familiar with automation and control systems and are better able to tell you how they want to use their system. They often times are willing to move up the ladder because they feel more comfortable with integrated solutions and are interested in trying things they may have passed on the first time. The other nice thing about upgrades is the short time period from approval to installation. Instead of having to work a project over 2-4 years, you can go from start to finish in a few weeks or months.
Jeff
I'm not totally privy to what my boss's opinion is. What I've been told is that we do not see it as a switch. We have over 30 active projects right now with AMX that we are constantly changing/modifying at our client's request. Those people are not going anywhere soon. We still have a tech who was landmark/phast and still have a few systems out there (beleive it or not) that are still functional. He gets those gigs when they come up.
Our chief designer is still very loyal to AMX. His projects are typically veyr complex and custom and he just doesn't see Savant fitting the bill. He was there with me in Mass. and has seen the interface. But, he still thinks AMX is the way to go.
So, as far as I know, we're not adopting the term 'legacy' yet.
As far as my own personal job security goes, I'll be heading up both things, so I'll be plenty busy either way.
Just out of curiosity what does he see as limitations to Savant compared to AMX? Or what do you think his objections are to moving forward with Savant? Do they use I/O, and relay boards? Enough can be said about the UI, but as far as design-wise, what sets them apart?
His clients really do like a lot of customization. To be frank, I think it's possible to get the same kinds of things done in both systems. With Savant, there's a lot more hoops to junp to get there.
During our discssions with our people who were at Savant, I accidentally coined a phrase that kinda stuck. I said that with Savant, there are a lot of built-in 'NOs' I said this as both a description of its scope and also as a negative statement about our company's process. We seem to have a credo that we'll do anything the client wants no matter how absurd or crazy it may seem. (I'm paraphrasing, of course...) Our official version of that statement is a "Can-do attitude..."
But, honestly, there's not a lot of difference in the feature set and possibilities, in my opinion.
I suspect that the deisnger is just very concerned about reliablity because he's the one that gets the calls at all hours of the day when our clients cannot watch one of their 20 TVs.
Seeing how I am the designer/programmer I also get those calls. Do they have a running diagnostic or a way to tell what may not be working (i.e. Notification/Diagnostic windows)?
I remember at Cedia when I was shown around the savant programming platform ever time I asked if they could do something a new window got popped up. As far as crazy an absurd. We had a client who we have made the AMX system also an irrigation system. It is monitoring a contact for soil moisture, time of day, and temp outside. I just wondered since that is actually very simple for me to write code wise, if Savant would simply be a task to do something that simple. Greg got all excited about xml profiles, but since I haven't written one, I have no idea the format or what type of text that uses...any clues to that? Is building xml like building java. I've parsed it...not created it.
Yes, they have a pretty nice system monitor utility. It's everything you'd expect. Has a main window with a green-yellow-red light kind of dashboard and you can drill down to deeper stuff. However, for us programmers, it'd be a bit silly since we'd be more interested in the actual workinds of the program.
xml is just essentially creating data tables. no biggie really. You just need to know the format. I already use xml fo things like my data tables for comcast / directv / dishnetwork channel line ups that get broadcast out to all my masters each night. You can make xml docs straight from excel spread sheets.
I've integrated Excel before, but never tried to play with xml. so xml really isn't "send_string dvDevice 'Do it'" type of programming. Just not familiar with it at all.
As far as channel lineups, what are you pushing to the Masters? Program Material? or just the actual channel Lineup 4-CBS...etc? Just curious
I just send a big data that says essentially, "this week CNN Headline News is Channel 24 on Comcast'.
The client has a button with the CNN graphic on it. The data table populates the IR flashes that go to the cable box. That way when Comcast or whoever decides to change their channel numbers, I only have to update one thing. That then is pushed out to all my masters and the client's channel presets aren't broke.
My data table is something like
Chan_data_chanNum.Comcasts[my button number for CNN]='202'
Chan_data_chanName.Comcasts[my button number for CNN]='CNN'
etc...
What doesn't change for me is the butotn number for CNN.
Sorry I changed some of the focus from the Savant post, but I believe this post is a wakening call to, or should be since over 1,000 people have viewed it.
Your clients have more personal ambition than mine, obviously. Because doing what you do would actually require them to phyically type in a number. Who has time for that???
Yeah, I'm still curious to hear a responce from AMX myself too. I think all the comments made (both defending and condeming) have had merit and are worthy of discussion.
By the way, say hi to your boss. Hopefully, he didn't think it was too big a dweeb...
I would love to see a company response from AMX. I mean it takes "nerve" to call AMX and Craptron legacy, but with all the details we've gotten from you and other sources there is some proof in the pudding, preferably chocolate. AMX needs to change the game when it comes to UI, its all about the UI for a client...well UI and reliability. If they don't they could be looking at fewer and fewer Resi dealers, since that is the focus for Savant. There are some big name C-tron accounts that switched over to Savant, one of them in the mountains of Colorado. Now whether they are making a big switch or bringing on a new control system has yet to be seen, but they are one of the larger C-tron accounts in the U.S. That's gotta say something.
Yeah I told him to listen to what you were saying, because if nothing else you were one of the smart people in the room...gotta watch out for those people, they cause trouble.
1. Stop flattering this new company with all of this chatter. Let them earn a reputation with hard work and good product.
2. If your ability to sell, program and install AMX is your only source of livelyhood, broaden your horizons. Your future success should be based on your skills as an integrator, not just as an AMX dealer. I do not beleive in putting my eggs in anyone else's basket but my own.
agreed. Like I said, as far as we're concerned, we're still AMX and about 5 other control products as well.
I have read all of the threads detailing all the thoughts, ideas & opinions you all have about Savant. I thought I would take an opportunity to throw in my two cents from an AMX point of view. I am the Regional Sales Manager for AMX Midwest-Residential Channel. I am involved on a daily basis on the sales & system design side. And just so you all know, most of my professional career prior to AMX was as an owner on the dealer side. So I do have an in depth understanding from both sides of the fence.
First off Eric, my sincere thanks to you for taking the time to give us an in depth assessment as to how you see things today with Savant. I appreciate your candid, honest feedback.
Simply stated, we are watching all of our competition very closely. Savant is certainly on that list. There is no question that from a UI perspective, they are showing something unique. I can see how dealer owners and sales teams are attracted to this because of the emotional appeal. Let's face it, as an industry we have built our niche in selling the emotional response tied to technology. Hi-end clients looked to be WOW'd. Being able to provide a native Apple graphical interface that is dialed in for a residential project is attractive.
Let's take a couple steps back and look at this from a big picture perspective... To keep us all centered, let me highlight/re-iterate some important points:
1). First and foremost, let's not forget that we have been in business for over 27 years and I can tell you for a fact, we couldn?t be more solvent financially. We are in this for the long haul. I can't speak to the financial status of Savant, but they are new, with that comes inherent risks no matter what anybody says. This is not taking a shot at Savant, I am simply stating a fact. There is no substitute for longevity. Either you have it or you don't. It's not that dealers shouldn't do business with a new company, it's simply to point out the reality of these risks especially given these difficult economic times. In 3 years, if a new start-up company is gone (and BTW, MANY have come and gone in 27 years), who will care how cool the UI's are.
2). In the upper tier of the market sector, integrators will always need a FULLY customizable solution. This need will simply never go away as long as the wealthy exist in this country.
3). Our competitors have limited UI Options. We have a UI for every application and more to come very soon. Stay tuned on that...
4). Savant is heavily married to Apple. In some ways that can be a good thing because of the power that Apple brings to the table, but when the dust settles, you still have a small integration company, that has many of their eggs in a basket that they have do not have total control over. We are an open architecture solution that is completely self sufficient. We rely on no one but ourselves and our 27 years of experience.
5). When is it ever a good idea to be at the mercy of the manufacturer to resolve the integration of non-supported gear and/or sub-systems. We provide the solution that empowers you the integrator/programmer to manage this as you see fit. Hi-end clients are not about excuses. You need to have total control to respond as they demand.
6).And last but certainly not least, from an equipment/hardware perspective, there is no cost advantage with Savant. In fact, they are more expensive across the board, which frankly is surprising when you consider our price points.
There is a reason why we are the control system of choice in mission critical applications. There is a reason why we control all the Apple owned Retail Stores in the entire world from our Dallas HQ. Yes, the company that Savant is based upon has us controlling all their stores. We control the music, lights, HVAC, Security and content distribution to over 200 locations from one control room in the belly of our main office.
The United States Government uses our solution as a standard in the White House, Barack Obama has an NXT-1700 sitting on his desk in the Press Room. We have our technology in the Pentagon, Camp David, Iraqi War Room NOC. We control Disney World, Bill Gates' house. We have our solutions in over 70% of all the Fortune 500 Companies. We have thousands upon thousands of successful residential installations across the world. We are a proven, tried and true solution.
Savant seems to be a good company, run by good people. Leveraging (sorry for the usage of the word) the Apple technology has its inherent advantages. And probably does open up some aspects of integration that could be enticing. We do not snub our nose to the competition. You will continue to see advancements in our solution in the residential space that will further solidify our position as an industry leader, while maintaining a platform that keeps you completely empowered. Please stay tuned as I know you all will.
Let's keep a calm cool perspective on this. We are all diehard AMXers either on the integrator side, programming side and with me, the manufacturing side. Please trust that the powers that be at AMX know exactly what's going on with all of our competition.
Feel free to contact me directly if you would like to discuss this further.
My e-mail is Jamie.finnegan@amx.com or my cell is 513-284-8494
Thanks for taking the time to read my diatribe.
Jamie Finnegan
AMX Midwest
Regional Sales Manager-Residential Channel
How is AMX limiting you from making good UIs?
Paul
Jamie,
Thanks for chiming in and taking the time to respond. Your comments are helpful and encouraging.
Paul, he may be referring to the lack of a stronger UI engine, and possibly Flash. I know that's something I'd like to see - even though I'm a Flash-dummy, but have a feeling that will never happen. (Though I'm open to eat my words.)
Waiting patiently for InfoComm... It sounds like there is a lot coming out this year.. even for resi guys.
Had a meeting with our guy. He wouldn't talk about what was coming at InfoComm (no problem with that from us) but I got the feeling there was something coming they are proud of.
Oh God, I hope they don't start supporting Flash. I hate Flash websites, so I can't imagine I would like Flash touch panels. UI design always seems to go out the window when Flash is used.
Paul