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Wireless "N" / 802.11n

jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
in AMX Control Products
Okay . . . I can only find small references to 802.11n routers. We have a client who feels he "must" have an "N" network. I spoke with AMX about it, and there isn't any real "evidence" from them regarding how well or unwell an 8400 with a g-card will do.

So - what is all of your experiences? Please post which wireless-n router / accesspoint you've used and the results. Thanks!

Comments

  • DHawthorneDHawthorne Posts: 4,584
    I have not yet succeeded in getting any wireless panel to play well with an 802.11n network with the N enabled. They either won't connect at all, or they fall offline and won't reconnect. As a matter of course, I set the wireless to G or B/G and disable the N.

    Is N even an official standard yet? Last I checked (admittedly, quite some time ago) there were differing implementations of it that weren't strictly compatible. I've never felt it offered much of a noticeable performance increase anyway, so I never felt bad about shutting it off.
  • jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
    No, "N" is not standard. Surely why AMX isn't doing anything with it yet.

    I'm just trying to explore the options to present to the client. He's apparently needing it to transfer large files to 3 computers concurrently. He's gotta back up his stuff (big league lawyer) and we can't get a wired connection to his main computer, so it's gotta be wireless.

    Thanks for the input!
  • viningvining Posts: 4,368
    APs are 1/2 duplex and N is MIMO and takes up most of the 2.4 spectrum and/or 5ghz. I guess MIMO means multiple 1/2 duplex connections at a time which is the only way it could be backward compatable to a,b,g. but is it full duplex? I guess it can't be. Multiple N's on a single network, don't think so.

    With AP's only one device can talk at a time RTS/CTS (1/2 duplex) type connection which is why through put can actually me much lower than 54megs on a great signal. Depends on number of users. If only one can talk at a time every one else gets buffered and they alternate send/receive.
  • ericmedleyericmedley Posts: 4,177
    'N' was kinda dead on arrival. really...

    The initial independent test found that it had a rather limited range when compared to G or even B. The bandwidth was in most cases slower and when on the extremes of the range very much slower.

    I bought one and an "N" card to test. It was worthless. I ditched them on ebay as fast as I could.

    This combined with the fact that it aniliates pretty much the whole 2.4Ghz band makes it a rather poor choice.

    I still love 'A'. I had it in my house and it rocked. It was fast and reliable. It's the Beta vs. VHS of WiFi.

    You must have one of those clients who thinks, "It's new, it must be better..."
  • jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
    ericmedley wrote: »
    You must have one of those clients who thinks, "It's new, it must be better..."
    Naw - we've got one of those clients who actually needs to transfer very large files wirelessly throughout the house to 3 other computers, and "g" isn't cutting it for him. I've thought about "Super G", where the speeds are 108 as opposed to 54.
  • viningvining Posts: 4,368
    If it's going through single AP to all 3 PC's at the same time the best you can hope for w/ G is 54/2 (1/2 duplex) = 27. 27 / 3 (simultaneous transfers) = 9Mbps if it's a great single and nothing else going on at the same time.
  • ericmedleyericmedley Posts: 4,177
    jjames wrote: »
    Naw - we've got one of those clients who actually needs to transfer very large files wirelessly throughout the house to 3 other computers, and "g" isn't cutting it for him. I've thought about "Super G", where the speeds are 108 as opposed to 54.

    Copper or fiber glass is still the fastest by a long-shot.

    I have a rule that when I hear an architect say, "everything is going wireless, isn't it?" I break a thumb.

    If you really want to sink his/her ship, have them send a file and then show them how you intercepted it on your laptop from the driveway.
  • Spire_JeffSpire_Jeff Posts: 1,917
    I know you said you were not able to get a wire there, so I am going to throw this out there... network over power lines. I have not personally used this, but it might be worth exploring on a limited basis. Here is one link I found on a quick search: http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=533 ...Claims up to 200Mbps throughput.

    Jeff

    P.S.
    I have only had one very BAD (With a capital B A D) experience with N. I would avoid it as of right now.
  • Jimweir192Jimweir192 Posts: 502
    Spire_Jeff wrote: »
    network over power lines.

    Exactly, I've used a few of them from time to time, for this very application. Works great, invisible to the end user and generally trouble-free, it is worth fitting some suppression if you have any motor devices on the same ring / circuit. I've got a pair of Netgear units running an internet radio in the kitchen, far fewer drop outs than the wifi for streaming.
  • viningvining Posts: 4,368
    Spire_Jeff wrote:
    network over power lines.
    That's not a bad idea. In the old days (10+ years ago) we used to use the network over phone lines when we had no other choice but that was only good for about 10Mbps and that was also before "G".

    If that doesn't work and you want to stay away from N you could use 3 sepearate AP's, each on their own SSID and RF channel and then just set up each PC to work on 1 of the SSID's. Then you could actually connect and multicast to the 3 PCs at the same time with data actually being transferred to each at the same time. Three concurrent 1/2 duplex connections.
  • jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
    Spire_Jeff wrote: »
    I know you said you were not able to get a wire there, so I am going to throw this out there... network over power lines. I have not personally used this, but it might be worth exploring on a limited basis. Here is one link I found on a quick search: http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=533 ...Claims up to 200Mbps throughput.
    Quite possibly the exact thing we need to do. Gonna throw it at our tech who's dealing with the client.

    Thanks a ton!

    And well, it's seeming that anyone who's used ANY wireless-n has had bad luck in an environment with an AMX wireless panel, so . . . lemme ask this. Has anyone had GOOD luck with wireless-n yet? :D
  • the8thstthe8thst Posts: 470
    Chalk up another vote against N.
    Just repeat after me, " N is bad. mmkay."
  • DHawthorneDHawthorne Posts: 4,584
    Spire_Jeff wrote: »
    I know you said you were not able to get a wire there, so I am going to throw this out there... network over power lines. I have not personally used this, but it might be worth exploring on a limited basis. Here is one link I found on a quick search: http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=533 ...Claims up to 200Mbps throughput.

    Jeff

    P.S.
    I have only had one very BAD (With a capital B A D) experience with N. I would avoid it as of right now.

    I've used it a few times where I absolutely had to. It's a bit flaky, and requires resetting the box when it goes dodgy. You also have to consider a phase bridge on the electrical system to get full coverage if your original and destinations wind up on a different phase.
  • Jeff LockyearJeff Lockyear Posts: 147
    Just to get another voice on the board, I'll tell you I've had nothing but grief with 5200s and 8400s and Wireless 'N' APs.
  • MRoedMRoed Posts: 9
    Wireless 'N' & AMX Touchpanels

    Has anyone found a wireless 'N' access point that will work with AMX touchpanels without configuring it to operate as a 'G' access point? Or is this just not going to happen until AMX provides an 'N' card to upgrade them?

    We have an existing client that is demanding wireless 'N'. My experience so far has been that you need to turn the 'N' capability off for the AMX touchpanel to work. We have tried some of the Linksys 'N' access points.

    An help would be greatly appreciate. Thanks
  • DHawthorneDHawthorne Posts: 4,584
    I haven't. And it gets worse ... I mainly do residential, and typically have to deal with whatever network devices are already there, and one of the most common are the Apple Airports. These really are not bad access points, and have good coverage, but as of the last firmware revision, you can no longer turn off wireless N. I see a lot of headaches as customers upgrade these things and break their AMX connectivity.
  • jjamesjjames Posts: 2,908
    DHawthorne wrote: »
    I haven't. And it gets worse ... I mainly do residential, and typically have to deal with whatever network devices are already there, and one of the most common are the Apple Airports. These really are not bad access points, and have good coverage, but as of the last firmware revision, you can no longer turn off wireless N. I see a lot of headaches as customers upgrade these things and break their AMX connectivity.
    Ahh - we can always rely on Apple to screw it up! :D
  • Jorde_VJorde_V Posts: 393
    jjames wrote: »
    Ahh - we can always rely on Apple to screw it up! :D

    No they're just going to force us to use wireless N, no harm done!

    .. Oh wait..
  • Spire_JeffSpire_Jeff Posts: 1,917
    Check out Ruckus Wireless. They have some crazy advanced wireless access points (they are making the new AMX Access Points). They have units that will do a/b/g/n and using an array of antennas in each access point, they are able to create separate connections to each device. I am using this in a couple of jobs and the touch panels work without disabling the wireless n. They are also very good at providing coverage. Lastly, if you have a gigabit backbone, you can have multiple client on a single access point with almost full wireless bandwidth each.

    I highly recommend this system. You can use the AMX product if the access point they are offering fits your needs, but last I heard, AMX is only offering a small segment of the complete product line.

    Jeff
  • the8thstthe8thst Posts: 470
    Spire_Jeff wrote: »
    Check out Ruckus Wireless. They have some crazy advanced wireless access points (they are making the new AMX Access Points). They have units that will do a/b/g/n and using an array of antennas in each access point, they are able to create separate connections to each device. I am using this in a couple of jobs and the touch panels work without disabling the wireless n. They are also very good at providing coverage. Lastly, if you have a gigabit backbone, you can have multiple client on a single access point with almost full wireless bandwidth each.

    I highly recommend this system. You can use the AMX product if the access point they are offering fits your needs, but last I heard, AMX is only offering a small segment of the complete product line.

    Jeff

    I installed our first system with the rebranded Ruckus controller and access points last week and everything worked really well.

    The only hick-up was that the controller shipped without the newest firmware for the APs and Controller. We had to have tech support put the correct firmware on the FTP site.

    All-in-all wireless N and MVP 5200 panels have both been functioning and the setup did not take much time at all.
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