2 MVP-BP or a TPC License

vining

A customers needs some new batteries for two of his MVP-8400i TPs so I was about to place the order, I looked at the price in my database which seemed much higher than they should even for AMX so I checked the AMX web site and my price there was now even higher by around 20%. So again it seems I'm faced with the dilemma of selling AMX products or finding a reasonable substitute. I'm figuring for the price of two batteries I can almost buy a TPC license and looking towards the future the customer will be able to migrate his license to any future iPad and he'll never need to buy batteries again, so in the long run it will be cheaper and he'll get a heck of allot more use from the iPad than he does his MVPs. So my price goes up and again my AMX sales go down. I wonder if the brains at HQ understand how the marketplace works? As it is AMX is a hard sell since no ones heard of them and Craptron and Satanvant are taking over more and more of the resi market making me think I've bet on the wrong horse again.

glr-fti

I just had the same problem. He had nothing but problems with his 8400i for years. I sent it in for repairs at least four times, all for the same issue. The last time in they at least got it fixed but now the batteries. I recommended the client purchase an iPad and use TPControl. He wanted another iPad anyway so he thought I was saving him money. I am a hero. Well....at least for today.

BTW I have a black 8400i and TDS for sale including two used batteries. :-)

vining

glr-fti wrote: »

I just had the same problem. He had nothing but problems with his 8400i for years. I sent it in for repairs at least four times, all for the same issue. The last time in they at least got it fixed but now the batteries. I recommended the client purchase an iPad and use TPControl. He wanted another iPad anyway so he thought I was saving him money. I am a hero. Well....at least for today.

BTW I have a black 8400i and TDS for sale including two used batteries. :-)

I think I changed batteries for this customer once already but I don't have the heart to charge them again all be it three years later. Maybe if they were'nt so freakin expensive or even if my cost didn't jump up 20% cuz sales are down. I really only need one since it's swelled to the point the cover won't go on and I can give him one that I have to keep the peace. At least if I suggest the iPad he'll then feel he's getting something for his money other then being ripped off.

I already have an 8400, 8400i and a 5200i, WDS & TDS of my own gathering dust and all in need of batteries and one needs a CF card which I'll re-image when I get CF cards in. The 5200i has the original faulty battery which AMX was supposed to replace. Right now I'm using a MXT-1000i for testing and development and I'm not really thrilled with it either but that's a rant for another day that I've been putting off since I got it.

TurnipTruck

Difficult as it may be, there comes a point where you have to consider the MVPs as legacy devices. Whether or not they can be fixed (if only such and such were true) doesn't matter anymore. It's the nature of computer hardware.

vining

TurnipTruck wrote: »

Difficult as it may be, there comes a point where you have to consider the MVPs as legacy devices. Whether or not they can be fixed (if only such and such were true) doesn't matter anymore. It's the nature of computer hardware.

Understood but when a device costs 10x more than an iPad 4x the cost of the best laptops you expect some longevity especially since the technology that drives them doesn't really changed. With iPads & PCs the processor speeds are multiplying yearly and all sorts of other features are added so updating every 4-6 years makes sense to stay current. What's the last significant upgrade to AMX systems? I'd say that was the change from Axlinx to Netlinx but nothing major since then. I don't see any significant improvement in the TPs either unless you get into the panoramic screen types or maybe the addition of intercom from the earlier Moderos. I would think customer forking over this kind of money would expect at least ten years of use before considering an upgrade unless they bought pre-intercom TPs and then decided that would be a feature worth paying for. Other than cosmetic appearances why would a resi customer consider upgrading to the X series if their system is functioning properly and again for the price they pay it should function properly with the occasional failure for 10+++ years. Devices being controlled may likely change 1-2 times but the AMX system hardware architecture could remain intact.

Now all that said I haven't had problems with my MVPs per sei and everything is working fine but the idea of spending the cost of an iPad every three years per MVP just to replace batteries is a little much IMHO. Then add the insult of AMX increasing my costs by 20% due to a low volume of sales ticks me off a little bit. I think what really bothers me isn't the cost increase either but the logic behind it.

If they increase my costs is that going to help me sell more or less product?

Does that increase or decrease my loyalty to the AMX product line?

Can the AMX decision makers really be that dumb?

Answers: less, decrease, obviously yes.

DHawthorne

I can usually talk my customers into repairing their 8400's, I just can't usually talk them into buying new (that is, replace with a 5200 or 9000). Most of mine will generally buy batteries as well; I pitch an iPad conversion at about $1500 if I supply the iPad, after buying the license and converting their panel files to the new resolution. Most feel a couple hundred for a repair is still a better deal.

There are drawbacks to going the mobile device. Unless you lock an Android, it's not dedicated, and can get clogged up with other stuff; there are connection issues, etc. Androids tend to lock up a lot (at least mine does). iPads suck down battery life while TPControl is active. So, IMO, a dedicated panel is still more reliable overall, and if I lay that all out and the customer understands, only the ones on a tight budget wouldn't rather have a real panel. I see that changing in time ... mobile devices are getting more and more ubiquitous, and better made, and people are starting to think of them as their device to do anything at all tech related. It's definitely the way the wind is blowing.

But yes, if AMX wants to sell real panels at all, they need to think about a pricing change to stay competitive. Their margins from the manufacturer may not allow it, but that market is going away fast. Likewise, I think TPControl needs to reduce their licensing as well ... it's really hard to justify to the client that the license costs more than the device. But this whole paradigm is in flux right now, I think we have a few bean counters clinging to old profitable models until they have wrung every last penny out of them, after which we'll see some more intelligent pricing.

vining

DHawthorne wrote: »

But yes, if AMX wants to sell real panels at all, they need to think about a pricing change to stay competitive. Their margins from the manufacturer may not allow it, but that market is going away fast. Likewise, I think TPControl needs to reduce their licensing as well ... it's really hard to justify to the client that the license costs more than the device. But this whole paradigm is in flux right now, I think we have a few bean counters clinging to old profitable models until they have wrung every last penny out of them, after which we'll see some more intelligent pricing.

I'm pretty sure the TPC price has been controlled by AMX in the hopes to make their dedicated TPs a more viable option. Otherwise the benefits of a dedicated AMX TP wouldn't come close to the cost and capabilities advantage the TPC approach would offer (resi market). I don't know how well that approach has worked but I guess it was worth the try from their perspective. How many folks simply went with brand X instead of the two AMX options we'll never know but have you noticed the drop off in forum participation. Somedays it feels like a ghost town and only a handful of programmers are left from those that frequented the forums even as recent as a year ago. Sometimes I really don't think they'll get it until it's too late and I fear in some ways it already is.

I do agree a resonable cost for repairs are justifiable to most customers but to replace batteries at the cost of an iPad is a bit much. That customers have a problem with.

DHawthorne

For what it's worth, we've been doing a lot more Savant than anything else. Everyone already owns an iPad and an iPhone, and there is no UI device cost at all, just the equipment. The app cost $5, and they don't even make a glass panel anymore. I utterly despise Savant to program, but it is a nice product from the end-user perspective. From the viewpoint of my company alone, I can tell you on the basis of UI devices alone, AMX has lost 70% of our system sales to Savant.

TurnipTruck

DHawthorne wrote: »

For what it's worth, we've been doing a lot more Savant than anything else.
---
From the viewpoint of my company alone, I can tell you on the basis of UI devices alone, AMX has lost 70% of our system sales to Savant.

That about sums up the big picture.

vining

DHawthorne wrote: »

For what it's worth, we've been doing a lot more Savant than anything else. Everyone already owns an iPad and an iPhone, and there is no UI device cost at all, just the equipment. The app cost $5, and they don't even make a glass panel anymore. I utterly despise Savant to program, but it is a nice product from the end-user perspective. From the viewpoint of my company alone, I can tell you on the basis of UI devices alone, AMX has lost 70% of our system sales to Savant.

So did AMX increase your product costs to entice you into selling more AMX systems. How counterintuitive is that. I mean, really, how dumb can they be? For a company who's systems are based on logic their business approach seems to use very little of it.

TurnipTruck

You're either in the treehouse with AMX or not. There's not much space on the ladder. Right, wrong, logical or not, that's how it is.

vining

TurnipTruck wrote: »

You're either in the treehouse with AMX or not.

I think I missed the treehouse and landed in the $hithouse. But is that like saying "you're either with us or against us" with no middle ground and criticism of any kind be it constructive or not is intolerable?

That mind set hasn't actually been working very well for Washington but maybe AMX will have better luck.

Hey Dave, do you guys need a CT branch office for Savant sales? Actually just kidding, being ex USN I beleive in going down with the ship and fighting to the bitter end if need be.

glr-fti

Pair the iPad with this:
http://www.smklink.com/products/paddock-10-stand-stereo-for-new-apple-ipad

and you don't need to worry about battery life. It looks like an iMac, if you like that look.

Since all we do is residential most of our new installs are Savant as well. Most of the new AMX offerings are commercial and that doesn't help me a bit. As long as you don't try to customize too much Savant works well. As of 2/28 they have changed their pricing model. I can't go into details here but the apps are free now.

I wish I could continue to use AMX because of the customization capabilities but I need products I can sell.

DHawthorne

TurnipTruck wrote: »

You're either in the treehouse with AMX or not. There's not much space on the ladder. Right, wrong, logical or not, that's how it is.

Frankly, Savant has the same attitude, and Apple has it even worse. It only works if you are delivering something the customer wants though, and if AMX wants to recapture the resi market, they need to change.

rrdbstudios

vining wrote: »

"but have you noticed the drop off in forum participation. Somedays it feels like a ghost town and only a handful of programmers are left from those that frequented the forums even as recent as a year ago.

Ignoring the rest of this thread, I believe this is a totally true statement; although AMX and Cre$tron programming are only 1 part of my overall job, I enjoy leaving this forum up and just reading what others have to say, and frankly the past few months, somedays there are little to no comments or new threads..

So depressing to say the lease. And I hate to say it, but Cre$tron has alot of nice gear, I just prefer the overall way of programming AMX. But hey... with Cre$stron about to release Simpl# on the 8th.. and amx still charging for their java license.. the resources in my job are shifting rather quickly towards otherside.

But back to the original topic, of batteries vs tpc.. my vote is TPC.. but the license cost really needs to come down.