If you consider that the speaker wire, and connectors play a much bigger role in the damping factor of an amp/speaker combo, it starts to tell me that the Damping factor of an amp is pretty much meaningless.... the difference between an amp with a damping factor of 200 and one with 100,000 is a mere few percent... not worth even considering. The PSW did an amp shootout and the results were subjective.. in other words it was a matter of taste and preference.. and I suspect bravado...The amps with the low damping factor and the ones with the high in blind tests were im-preceptable.
They couldn't even measure the Digam amps since they wee using sine waves for the test and the Digam limits that type of power because it sees it as feedback.. limiting the potential of the amp to damage the speakers...The damping factor of the Digam is 10,000+...Mikey says the Crown Xti (lighter power supply amp) is awesome for sub duty, and sees no need for more power on his Q wave Peavey 2-18 subs...
I can provide you with the article that I read about damping factor.. It was by the PSW's Bennet Prescott...one of those that will bite your head off or leave you with the wish that you had been wearing flameproof underwear...
As a matter of fact the Crown Mac 3600 turns out to not be a very good amp for my LABsubs, kicks the hell out of my EV S181's though.
Subjective my friends... won't even go into the Turkey thing...Behringer has had his tit in the ringer from day one when he copied the Mackie board right down to the MFG marks on the circute boards...Thats the beauty of the Chinese reverse engineering team.. they can even spell \"Ligth\"... if ever so dyslexically...and thats what my Power conditioner says... you have Higth, and low
Oh well.. I think weight and efficiency are the important factors here and were lucky to have several platforms to choose from, that are decent names... In the end the last factor has to be Warranty...Crown wins there hands down...
Gadget triggered a rememberence. The repair tech I was talking to the other day, said that (you probably know this) Mackie went down hill when Greg? Mackie sold to Loud and bean counters started saving the company money with cheaper components ($.05 & $.10ing to death). Greg? has 6 - 8 mixers ready to hit the market as soon as his non-compete ends.
Mackie went offshore...and the quality went to the dogs...you couldn't give me that crap any more...I NEVER did like their boards.. the EQ's sounded like boxes.
First of all, I purchased the PA because I don't have a bottomless pocket. I appreciate that companies make entry level as well as professional level products. We all have to start somewhere. I am also not sure I understand the onshore vs offshore arguement. Good audio product are made all over the world! Crown amps - Europe, Yamaha, Japan, etc. I also would bet that if you looked closely at where DBX purchases its raw materials - you would find electronic components from yes, China. This is a global economy.
Also, what's this forum about? Helping DBX users, or bashing other company's products?
On a more relavant issue - dispite all of the snobs posting about how the 260 is much better, the only advantage I see is the computer interface. So I have to actually push buttons instead of using a computer mouse - Big deal!
The more I learn about the DRPA the more I wonder why DBX offers it...:? Obviously there's a large market for it...and it's a great piece of equipment for the $money$...:D But in comparison to the DR260 I think it affirms the old adage that "you get what you pay for"...:(
Hello visoundguy,
I don't think anyone here was bashing the DRPA... I believe the conversation started in regards to it's features vs. the DR260... I only stated the simple facts "it's a great piece of equipment for the $money$" and that "you get what you pay for"... Now as far as the remaining posts go...we merely got into a side conversation that has no relevance to your original posts... I apologize for taking part of the high-jacking but everyone is entitled to their opinion and none of them were directed towards you in a malicious way...
Chill-out!...
Kevin
PS... Most everyone here knows that I recently installed nine Behringer EP2500s in our youth center...:D
If it appeared that I bashed anyone for having / using a DRPA, I would have been bashing myself and Gadget as well, I apologize. The informality of this forum is it's appeal to me.
Back to topic.
Vis, what did you do about the upper filter? Anything.
Hmmm
It would seem that you got your answers did you not? So why the attitude all of a sudden? I'm the moderator here and we attempt to disseminate information that will help those that read this forum. Off topic has been a part of this forum since it's inception, I monitor it very closely and when it gets out of hand I steer things back on track. I'm one of the SNOBS that prefer the 260 but I have the DRPA and 4800. I suppose that makes me a really big snob... One of the reasons we try and point out the differences in the 260 and DRPA is that often we find that a person didn't know that there was such a difference.. and don't be mislead it's a WHOPPING BIG difference in the two units. Often the DRPA purchaser would upgrade if they only knew the myriad benefits of the 260...besides your assertion that the computer interface is the only benefit you seem to think that all that offers is a virtual button versus a hardware one.. not so, here is a partial list of what the 260 has that the DRPA doesn't...
1. Software unpalatable.
2. User programs can be stored for future re-installation in the event of a failure. they can also be sent and uploaded into other 260's
3. The GUI can run the 260 over a 250 foot snake allowing the unit to sit in the amp rack.
4. 24 PEQ's versus 14 on the DRPA
5. 2.7 seconds of redistributable delay for whatever purpose.. versus 60 milliseconds in the DRPA
6. 2 SELECTABLE inserts where you can choose between modules
7. Remote zone control of speaker systems
8. Real time viewing of RTA information.
9. Real time viewing of ALL modules, their parameters, and the settings and condition of compressors, limiters, AGC, and feedback control frequencies and the cuts the unit employed to eliminate those problems.
10. Programs can be remotely developed and hen uploaded to a unit somewhere else.
11. Security that is multi level AND has encryption to prevent tampering
12. Auto mutes that prevent cascade dumping that can hurt speakers in the event of an inadvertent power shutoff or power failure.
13. polarity inversion and phase adjustment capability
14.Output mutes on all channels
15.input mixer
16. The ability to run a mono 4-way, 5-way, or 6-way system. The DriveRack PA only
supports configurations up to a 3-way (with mono or stereo inputs).
17.ATTACK, RELEASE and HOLD controls for the compressor (the DriveRack PA has
THRESHOLD, GAIN, OVEREASY and RATIO controls only and the attack and release
settings are program dependent).
18.Peakstop Plus output limiters which are true brick wall limiters.
Now if you still think us SNOBS have no reason to try and point out to those that are buying a digital system controller for the first time that for a mere couple hundred extra dollars this kind of power and user tools become available...then I think that you sir have missed the point completely...I would NEVER have purchase the DRPA had someone pointed out the differences to me and I would have 4 260's, a 240 and a 4800...I simply am having difficulty understanding why you are so put out about our detours? It's no skin off your nose.. you could start a fresh post any time you want... so whats with the thin skin? We are ALL volunteers here.. geez..
One last point to prove we have a heart. As Gadget refers toin #12. Buy a $30 UPS (battery back-up) from any computer store and plug the DRPA into it. If a breaker goes down (or complete building power failure from weather or whatever) speaker damage can occur from the deafening pop. Especially if you have monster power and less than monster speakers. Now, you may be saying to yourself, \"Why didn't someone tell me that before?\". Well, can't have it both ways. Regardless, welcome to the forum, where trivia and dry humor call home.
Ok - I've chilled. From my perspective, I had just spent $400 of hard earned cash on the PA and I'm being told I should have purchased a more expensive unit!
Anyway, I do appreciate the technical info.
As I side note, if it wasn't for Behringer, Nady, and other low cost options, many musicians wouldn't be able to get into this business and eventually afford a Driverack PA or QSC amp! These manufacturers may not provide the hightest quality equipment - but they provide an entry point into the marketplace.
Point taken, I agree whole heartedly, and I own many of the products you named.. I was just pointing out that you didn't seem to be speaking from a point of knowledge, and were in fact knowledge is power. We try very hard to keep this informal, but informative. I Bought the DRPA before the 260 came out.. I immediately got the 260 and have never been happier since. Now with the 4800 I'm finding a whole new world of sound I never knew possible. Especially with my Soundcraft console.. It takes a higher quality source to realize the sonic benefits. BTW my main console in the house install is the Behringer 3282 and I have had great luck with it.. I have another @ Monitor world and couldn't see putting my HUGE Soundcraft in in it's place... even though the Craft sounds better. We are NOT bashing the DRPA, or you for purchasing it...Just trying to point out that the 260 is a MONSTER for a few bucks more...
Wow, that is a great list of benefits of the 260 over the drpa. I own a drpa and love it, but was considering a vsx as an upgrade because it has a GUI and settings for my old SP2's. But as happy as i have been with the drpa (it was probably the single most beneficial thing i bought for my passive rig's sound) i will stick with dbx and give the 260 a look. IMHO just the GUI is worth the extra money, but there is so much more than that.
Thanks,
Brandon
First of all - it's been nearly a year since I asked for your help. My computer crashed - I had a job change, and on and on - so much for the excuses.
But that said, You had given me some settings for the DRPA for my equipment as follows:
_________________________________________________
Thank you for recognizing the DBX user group!... Obviously you understand that we donate our time to help others... We all need help at one time or another (an understatement for me ),...and besides \"to teach is to learn\"...
The following suggestions are only my opinions or personal preference... When setting up a system like this there are going to be trade-offs...and the main goal is to come-up with something that sounds great to you...
I would use a custom 2X5 stereo with mono sub configuration as illustrated below... I used the DR260 DriveWare Wizard to configure this custom 2X5 as a starting point...
2X8s in Stereo:
HPF 108Hz L-R24dB/Oct
LPF Out BS6dB/Oct
Gain 0dB or maybe -1dB if to much on highs
Note: The following is very radical and unorthodox but I know from personal experience that your system will kick a** if your 2X15s and dual 18 subs are in phase... If you don't like the way it sounds you can always set your 2X15s the same as your 2X8s...
2X15s in Stereo:
HPF 72Hz (or 108Hz) L-R24dB/Oct
LPF Out BS6dB/Oct
Gain 0dB
I suggest a \"3dB boost\" for your subs... Personally,...I love lots of earthmoving, chest-thumping bass...
I recommend that you click here and download the DriveWare GUI... Play around with the DriveWare and get yourself familiar with it... These settings should work...but you will need to key them manually with the DRPA... I would read the DRPA manual but it's assumed that the user has prior experience with PA systems... Sit at the kitchen table, poke around, and get familiar with the menus and screens… You may also want to look at the \"Training Modules\"... The tab is located at the top right of this screen... I also recommend that you read Gadget's \"Heartfelt Welcome\" post in the FAQs Start Here category and setup your gain structure...
It's not going to sound “great� until you set the gain structure, the time delay, and phase between the subs and tops, and perform an Auto-EQ (for inside use only) with the RTA mic... If you perform the Auto-EQ only enable one side (mute the other), adjust the gain (volume in this case) to the venue listening level, and use the fast mode... Once it has completed set everything (in the GEQ) from 0-100Hz flat (at 0dB) and adjust everything from 7kHz and above to suite your taste...
Now - I finally got around to setting up a my stuff for a live gig - and I applied your settings above.
No 2 ways about it - this KICKS major BUTT! This is by far the best sounding live rig I've heard in quite some time - seriously. From the lowest of lows, to the Highest of Highs, I can HEAR all the spectrum of frequencies! I hear some pretty high end systems at many venues, but nothing beats the quality of sound with the DRPA installed. Most rigs I hear are way to heavy on the low end.
Funny thing is that the speakers are all custom made (pat myself on the back). But I was careful to go with speakers that had 4\" voice coils. And braced and used good quality materials on everything.
Are the speakers/amps light? Hell no - but the crowd doesn't care. and I need my exercise.
Anyway, thanks for the great advice - and perfect settings - I've not had to tweak it at all!
Comments
They couldn't even measure the Digam amps since they wee using sine waves for the test and the Digam limits that type of power because it sees it as feedback.. limiting the potential of the amp to damage the speakers...The damping factor of the Digam is 10,000+...Mikey says the Crown Xti (lighter power supply amp) is awesome for sub duty, and sees no need for more power on his Q wave Peavey 2-18 subs...
I can provide you with the article that I read about damping factor.. It was by the PSW's Bennet Prescott...one of those that will bite your head off or leave you with the wish that you had been wearing flameproof underwear...
As a matter of fact the Crown Mac 3600 turns out to not be a very good amp for my LABsubs, kicks the hell out of my EV S181's though.
Subjective my friends... won't even go into the Turkey thing...Behringer has had his tit in the ringer from day one when he copied the Mackie board right down to the MFG marks on the circute boards...Thats the beauty of the Chinese reverse engineering team.. they can even spell \"Ligth\"... if ever so dyslexically...and thats what my Power conditioner says... you have Higth, and low
Oh well.. I think weight and efficiency are the important factors here and were lucky to have several platforms to choose from, that are decent names... In the end the last factor has to be Warranty...Crown wins there hands down...
G
DRA
G
First of all, I purchased the PA because I don't have a bottomless pocket. I appreciate that companies make entry level as well as professional level products. We all have to start somewhere. I am also not sure I understand the onshore vs offshore arguement. Good audio product are made all over the world! Crown amps - Europe, Yamaha, Japan, etc. I also would bet that if you looked closely at where DBX purchases its raw materials - you would find electronic components from yes, China. This is a global economy.
Also, what's this forum about? Helping DBX users, or bashing other company's products?
On a more relavant issue - dispite all of the snobs posting about how the 260 is much better, the only advantage I see is the computer interface. So I have to actually push buttons instead of using a computer mouse - Big deal!
On to better things.
I don't think anyone here was bashing the DRPA... I believe the conversation started in regards to it's features vs. the DR260... I only stated the simple facts "it's a great piece of equipment for the $money$" and that "you get what you pay for"... Now as far as the remaining posts go...we merely got into a side conversation that has no relevance to your original posts... I apologize for taking part of the high-jacking but everyone is entitled to their opinion and none of them were directed towards you in a malicious way...
Chill-out!...
Kevin
PS... Most everyone here knows that I recently installed nine Behringer EP2500s in our youth center...:D
Back to topic.
Vis, what did you do about the upper filter? Anything.
DRA
It would seem that you got your answers did you not? So why the attitude all of a sudden? I'm the moderator here and we attempt to disseminate information that will help those that read this forum. Off topic has been a part of this forum since it's inception, I monitor it very closely and when it gets out of hand I steer things back on track. I'm one of the SNOBS that prefer the 260 but I have the DRPA and 4800. I suppose that makes me a really big snob... One of the reasons we try and point out the differences in the 260 and DRPA is that often we find that a person didn't know that there was such a difference.. and don't be mislead it's a WHOPPING BIG difference in the two units. Often the DRPA purchaser would upgrade if they only knew the myriad benefits of the 260...besides your assertion that the computer interface is the only benefit you seem to think that all that offers is a virtual button versus a hardware one.. not so, here is a partial list of what the 260 has that the DRPA doesn't...
1. Software unpalatable.
2. User programs can be stored for future re-installation in the event of a failure. they can also be sent and uploaded into other 260's
3. The GUI can run the 260 over a 250 foot snake allowing the unit to sit in the amp rack.
4. 24 PEQ's versus 14 on the DRPA
5. 2.7 seconds of redistributable delay for whatever purpose.. versus 60 milliseconds in the DRPA
6. 2 SELECTABLE inserts where you can choose between modules
7. Remote zone control of speaker systems
8. Real time viewing of RTA information.
9. Real time viewing of ALL modules, their parameters, and the settings and condition of compressors, limiters, AGC, and feedback control frequencies and the cuts the unit employed to eliminate those problems.
10. Programs can be remotely developed and hen uploaded to a unit somewhere else.
11. Security that is multi level AND has encryption to prevent tampering
12. Auto mutes that prevent cascade dumping that can hurt speakers in the event of an inadvertent power shutoff or power failure.
13. polarity inversion and phase adjustment capability
14.Output mutes on all channels
15.input mixer
16. The ability to run a mono 4-way, 5-way, or 6-way system. The DriveRack PA only
supports configurations up to a 3-way (with mono or stereo inputs).
17.ATTACK, RELEASE and HOLD controls for the compressor (the DriveRack PA has
THRESHOLD, GAIN, OVEREASY and RATIO controls only and the attack and release
settings are program dependent).
18.Peakstop Plus output limiters which are true brick wall limiters.
Now if you still think us SNOBS have no reason to try and point out to those that are buying a digital system controller for the first time that for a mere couple hundred extra dollars this kind of power and user tools become available...then I think that you sir have missed the point completely...I would NEVER have purchase the DRPA had someone pointed out the differences to me and I would have 4 260's, a 240 and a 4800...I simply am having difficulty understanding why you are so put out about our detours? It's no skin off your nose.. you could start a fresh post any time you want... so whats with the thin skin? We are ALL volunteers here.. geez..
Gadget
Moderator and satisfied 260 owner...
DRA
Anyway, I do appreciate the technical info.
As I side note, if it wasn't for Behringer, Nady, and other low cost options, many musicians wouldn't be able to get into this business and eventually afford a Driverack PA or QSC amp! These manufacturers may not provide the hightest quality equipment - but they provide an entry point into the marketplace.
be well
Gadget
Thanks,
Brandon
But that said, You had given me some settings for the DRPA for my equipment as follows:
_________________________________________________
Thank you for recognizing the DBX user group!... Obviously you understand that we donate our time to help others... We all need help at one time or another (an understatement for me ),...and besides \"to teach is to learn\"...
The following suggestions are only my opinions or personal preference... When setting up a system like this there are going to be trade-offs...and the main goal is to come-up with something that sounds great to you...
I would use a custom 2X5 stereo with mono sub configuration as illustrated below... I used the DR260 DriveWare Wizard to configure this custom 2X5 as a starting point...
2X8s in Stereo:
HPF 108Hz L-R24dB/Oct
LPF Out BS6dB/Oct
Gain 0dB or maybe -1dB if to much on highs
Note: The following is very radical and unorthodox but I know from personal experience that your system will kick a** if your 2X15s and dual 18 subs are in phase... If you don't like the way it sounds you can always set your 2X15s the same as your 2X8s...
2X15s in Stereo:
HPF 72Hz (or 108Hz) L-R24dB/Oct
LPF Out BS6dB/Oct
Gain 0dB
Dual 18s Bridge Mono:
HPF 41Hz BW18dB/Oct
LPF 105Hz L-R24dB/Oct
Gain +3dB
I suggest a \"3dB boost\" for your subs... Personally,...I love lots of earthmoving, chest-thumping bass...
I recommend that you click here and download the DriveWare GUI... Play around with the DriveWare and get yourself familiar with it... These settings should work...but you will need to key them manually with the DRPA... I would read the DRPA manual but it's assumed that the user has prior experience with PA systems... Sit at the kitchen table, poke around, and get familiar with the menus and screens… You may also want to look at the \"Training Modules\"... The tab is located at the top right of this screen... I also recommend that you read Gadget's \"Heartfelt Welcome\" post in the FAQs Start Here category and setup your gain structure...
It's not going to sound “great� until you set the gain structure, the time delay, and phase between the subs and tops, and perform an Auto-EQ (for inside use only) with the RTA mic... If you perform the Auto-EQ only enable one side (mute the other), adjust the gain (volume in this case) to the venue listening level, and use the fast mode... Once it has completed set everything (in the GEQ) from 0-100Hz flat (at 0dB) and adjust everything from 7kHz and above to suite your taste...
_________________________________________________________
Now - I finally got around to setting up a my stuff for a live gig - and I applied your settings above.
No 2 ways about it - this KICKS major BUTT! This is by far the best sounding live rig I've heard in quite some time - seriously. From the lowest of lows, to the Highest of Highs, I can HEAR all the spectrum of frequencies! I hear some pretty high end systems at many venues, but nothing beats the quality of sound with the DRPA installed. Most rigs I hear are way to heavy on the low end.
Funny thing is that the speakers are all custom made (pat myself on the back). But I was careful to go with speakers that had 4\" voice coils. And braced and used good quality materials on everything.
Are the speakers/amps light? Hell no - but the crowd doesn't care. and I need my exercise.
Anyway, thanks for the great advice - and perfect settings - I've not had to tweak it at all!
DRA