DR260 with Active Speaker
Scorp1
Posts: 19
Hi guys I’m glad I found your forum and I really admire there are people like you guys out there who are willing to answer these types of questions. I have read through the suggested link starting from the “Welcome�. I also read posted frequently ask questions and it sounds like you guys really know this stuff. What’s funny is that seems like the more I read the less I know like Gadget had mention on one of the post. I think it’s a combination of loaded information here and not all people have the same speakers or amps except either the DRPA or DR260. I feel that if I register and ask question directly with what equipment I have I will get a better answers. It’s probably been answer and I apologize for this lengthy post. Hopefully you guys can help me get the best sound out of these DR for what it can do.
The setup I have is really basic and I will be getting more and better speakers later. Since the wizard don’t have my speaker listed but I can select custom. In the end I’m not actually sure what the setting should finally be.
I had DRPA for couple of years now and it sounded good when plugging my speaker through it and it seem to can sound good. I have played with it but not extensively and kind of get the idea. One day I bought an apex exciter because I heard people say it makes a different and it did sound better (punchy and seem clear) but after a while my ear got tire of it. I know Gadget don’t recommend it and that it should sound better without it.
I use mainly in home room and will be use in a hall in some occasion set for live band. This may be an over kill for a room. Room is roughly 40ft length and 20ft wide and 8ft high.
I’ve gone through the gain structure you provide, downloaded the DR260 GUI and burn the pink nose file to the CD. By the way I like changing setting within the GUI it seems easier.
Here is what I have:
Mackie 1642vlz pro = I bought this couple years ago. I’m thinking of trading in for the new 1642vl3 unless you guys can convince me on a better Mixer with similar price range.
DRPA = I bought this couple years after 1642vlz pro and SR1530 and I figure it would sound better if I get DR260.
DR260 = Reason I bought this is because of potential functionality feature for years to come and setting up for local live band (mix style of music).
Mackie SR1530 3-way active built in amp = I bought this couple years ago. Since this is an active speaker should I set up as full range? How do I setup as full range? Should I make R260 do the xover?
http://www.mackie.com/products/sa1530z/
JBLS120II SUB home theater speaker = I plug this directly on the “sub outâ€? of the Mixer. ¼
http://jbl.com/home/products/product_de ... TU&ser=STU
“4. Set the mixer input channel fader (with pink noise) at \"unity\" (0dB). Also zero the EQ.�Is this mean the mixer input channel EQ also needs to be set at “unity�? I notice that if I turn the EQ all the way down to the LEFT it does not get any Clipping even with Trim, Channel fader and Master fader turn all the way up.
Room EQ with RTA:
When I read over and over on this topic I get a sense that it’s nearly impossible to EQ a room but with just to get a baseline preset as a starting point. The rest is using your good ear and possible the positioning of the speakers.
I have not try the “new room EQ� technique yet. What is it mean when you refer to making it close to FLAT as possible?
Is it possible to get a preloaded starting point of the program file that you think would be a good starting point for my setup? I can download it onto my DR260? I think this will help me a lot. I have been fooling around with the DR260 setting for several months now and I have not make it sound any better than DRPA if at all. I’m going to play with it some more tonight. Please help guys! Thanks you in advance.
The setup I have is really basic and I will be getting more and better speakers later. Since the wizard don’t have my speaker listed but I can select custom. In the end I’m not actually sure what the setting should finally be.
I had DRPA for couple of years now and it sounded good when plugging my speaker through it and it seem to can sound good. I have played with it but not extensively and kind of get the idea. One day I bought an apex exciter because I heard people say it makes a different and it did sound better (punchy and seem clear) but after a while my ear got tire of it. I know Gadget don’t recommend it and that it should sound better without it.
I use mainly in home room and will be use in a hall in some occasion set for live band. This may be an over kill for a room. Room is roughly 40ft length and 20ft wide and 8ft high.
I’ve gone through the gain structure you provide, downloaded the DR260 GUI and burn the pink nose file to the CD. By the way I like changing setting within the GUI it seems easier.
Here is what I have:
Mackie 1642vlz pro = I bought this couple years ago. I’m thinking of trading in for the new 1642vl3 unless you guys can convince me on a better Mixer with similar price range.
DRPA = I bought this couple years after 1642vlz pro and SR1530 and I figure it would sound better if I get DR260.
DR260 = Reason I bought this is because of potential functionality feature for years to come and setting up for local live band (mix style of music).
Mackie SR1530 3-way active built in amp = I bought this couple years ago. Since this is an active speaker should I set up as full range? How do I setup as full range? Should I make R260 do the xover?
http://www.mackie.com/products/sa1530z/
JBLS120II SUB home theater speaker = I plug this directly on the “sub outâ€? of the Mixer. ¼
http://jbl.com/home/products/product_de ... TU&ser=STU
“4. Set the mixer input channel fader (with pink noise) at \"unity\" (0dB). Also zero the EQ.�Is this mean the mixer input channel EQ also needs to be set at “unity�? I notice that if I turn the EQ all the way down to the LEFT it does not get any Clipping even with Trim, Channel fader and Master fader turn all the way up.
Room EQ with RTA:
When I read over and over on this topic I get a sense that it’s nearly impossible to EQ a room but with just to get a baseline preset as a starting point. The rest is using your good ear and possible the positioning of the speakers.
I have not try the “new room EQ� technique yet. What is it mean when you refer to making it close to FLAT as possible?
Is it possible to get a preloaded starting point of the program file that you think would be a good starting point for my setup? I can download it onto my DR260? I think this will help me a lot. I have been fooling around with the DR260 setting for several months now and I have not make it sound any better than DRPA if at all. I’m going to play with it some more tonight. Please help guys! Thanks you in advance.
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Kev
DRA
I set-up a custom 2X3 configuration for him to start out with... Once he gets me his email address I will send it to him and copy you and Gary...
Kev
I sent you an email with a DR260 device file attached... I also copied Dra and Gadget so everyone is on the same page...
I suggested a 2X6 stereo crossover with summed mono output for your sub... Output 1 is left stereo left channel for Mackie SR1530, output 2 is for stereo right, and output 3 is a summed mono channel for JBL S120II... Your sub is supposed to handle 22Hz to 150Hz and your tops 33Hz to 20kHz... The speaker frequency response specs are usually very optimistic so I wouldn't HPF the sub any lower than 35Hz... I'm was almost tempted to LPF the sub at 70Hz so your Mackie's will pick-up 80-100Hz region for more kick bass... Regardless,...I would not overlap the crossover because this could create all sorts of problems that you may already be experiencing if your currently running the Mackie's at full range...
I highly recommend that you run your sub from the DriveRack instead of the mixer... You should use a standard balanced microphone cable from channel 3 all the way to your sub and then convert it to an unbalanced \"mono\" RCA plug right at the sub... You can buy adapters at most online music stores i.e Musiciansfriend.com or maybe Radio Shack... On your sub make sure the \"LFE\" switch is in the normal position and connect to either the left or right RCA line level input... Set the crossover fully clockwise to 150Hz because the DriveRack will now be the DSP... I would put the level knob at about the 2:00 position...
The Mackie's are pretty straight forward... You should use the -15 to +15dB attenuator when setting up the gain structure and set it at about 3dB below clipping... The \"limit' indicator should start to blink when clipping...
Kev
PS. I recommend following this thread http://www.dbxpro.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=1039&start=0
EDIT: Scorp,...I emailed you a new file Scorp_70Hz_1.dwd that might work better for your setup... I set the crossover at 70Hz... Contrary to my second email,...be sure to turn off the output limiters when setting the gain structure... I forgot to do this when I saved my changes before re-sending...
1) system as K set up.
2) system as Marty suggests,
3) eliminate the sub
You have nothing to lose. Try them all and go with what sounds best. Luckily #2 & #3 can be instantly compared by muting the sub from the 260 with the push on a button. The advantage to #1 is more power available to the mid-bass range.
Good luck.
DRA
EDIT: Replaced the name Marty with Scorp...
Scorp,...You can keep the HPF at 35Hz on your sub and set the LPF at about 105HZ... Set the HPF on your tops at about 70Hz and LPF out... Your crossovers will overlap on the sub and tops from 70Hz to 105Hz... These frequencys are right in the kick bass region and will give you unbelievable thump!... The problem with setting your system up this way would be comb-filtering and phase-canceling between your sub and tops in this region... Your timing alignment has to be very accurate as well... If you try this you will need to pay particular attention to your speaker placement, sub vs. tops phasing, and time alignment...but once it's setup correctly it can give very pleasing results...
Kev
PS. Gadget will disagree!...
[Kevin] (Kevin) On your sub make sure the \"LFE\" switch is in the normal position and connect to either the left or right RCA line level input[/Currently I have it connect to left and right. Would it sound better if make use of both left and right? I assume since it is setup for mono I have to choose either left or right is that correct?]
[Kevin](Kevin)EDIT: Scorp,...I emailed you a new file Scorp_70Hz_1.dwd that might work better for your setup... I set the crossover at 70Hz... Contrary to my second email,...be sure to turn off the output limiters when setting the gain structure... I forgot to do this when I saved my changes before re-sending...[/Is this mean I need to do the the gain structure again after loading the latest file you sent me? I'll make sure I turn off the limiter when doing this.]
[Kevin](Kevin) The Mackie's are pretty straight forward... You should use the -15 to +15dB attenuator when setting up the gain structure and set it at about 3dB below clipping... The \"limit' indicator should start to blink when clipping... [/I currently have my mix eq setup at unity will that be OK? Are you refereing 3dB on the Gain (TRIM)?]
When you connect to output channel 3 of your DriveRack you will only have one subwoofer output... That's why I said either left or right... I suppose it would do no harm to hook-up to the both of them...
Yes,...because I may have the crossover gains set differently then they were when you set the gain structure the first time... Besides,...you can never have too much practice...:D
I'm refering to steps 11 and 12 in the "Super Duper" gain structure procedure:
For your circumstance (the Mackies) use the "limit" indicator as the red clip light...
If you haven't followed this procedure click here and read the entire post at least three times and very carefully...:D
Cheers!
Kev
PS... Two posts up I was addressing you Scorp,...and not Marty...
The mackie 1530 I have does not have the pot to turn it's built in amp. I'm assuming I just need to use the trim on the mixer right? Thanks
Scorp,...If the manual is correct then the "level control" is the amplifier attenuator or gain trim pot and the "limit" indicator is the clip light...
Cheers!
Kev
This is very important stuff!!!...8)
Kev
The program file you sent me:
I notice only xover and limiter that is set and other settings are not on is that correct?
For those that are not on did you also set the setting but not turn on and they are for me to play with?
Thanks Kevin.
Remember,...after you have set the gain structure you will need to play some music and balance the system... For example: If your system has to much high-end you can always turn down the level control on your Mackies but never turn it up past the point (you should have marked it) of 3dB below clipping... You should also try the phase switch on the sub and put it in the position that makes your bass most punchy...Then setup your timing alignment between your sub and tops... You should do all of these things before attempting AutoEQ...
Here is a combination of different time alignment techniques that have been suggested by Gadget, Dra, and myself:
1) Take a measurement (with a standard tape measure) from a central listening position to your tops and then again to your subs... For example: if the distance to the tops is 16FT and the subs is 20FT then you would have approx of 4FT of timing mis-alignment between them... You can compensate for this mis-alignment by starting out with 4FT of delay on your tops... Once you have it roughed in; play some music and sweep the delay until your bass sounds the most punchy...or until the tops and subs sound in-sync with each other... Depend on your ears and sweep the delay until it sounds best to you... 2) Mic the kick drum and have the drummer (or stand-in) to hit the kick drum because it has fundamentals above and below the cross-over point... Sweep the delay and when it sounds the best (thud, meat, and click) you are time aligned... You can also right click on the following kick drum MP3 file:
http://www.sonicftp.com/samps/mp3/kick/kick9.mp3 and then select save target and select a location... Play the MP3 in loop mode over your system and sweep the delay...3) Download this Test Tone Generator... Mute one of your tops and put up a tone that's dead center of your crossover point... You can invert the phase on either the top or sub and sweep the delay until the tone is quietest,...or not invert the phase and sweep the delay until the tone is at it's loudest... Since you have the DR260 you could also use the RTA mic... Place it between the top and sub and go live RTA and watch the screen (computer) for the timing is aligned spot as you sweep...
Here's an "indoor" AutoEQ procedure:
If you perform the Auto-EQ (for indoor use) only enable one side right or left and mute the other... Lay the RTA microphone directly on the floor at a normal listening distance and aim it towards the active side... Adjust the gain (volume in this case) to the loudest listening level for your venue, and use the fast mode... Once it has completed manually set everything (in the GEQ) from 0-100Hz flat (at 0dB) and adjust everything from 7kHz and above to suite your taste...
Cheers!Kev
By doing the new room AutoEQ from Gary it may help my sound better.
I like to do the new room AutoEQ from Gary. What does Gary mean when he said make the response as close to FLAT as possible? What setting should I set for may FullRange as a preset before the auto EQ?
Should I need to tilt my SR1530 mackie speaker? Does the speaker need to be located where its going to be use to get the auto EQ to working properly for that room?
- Stored the presets at Fullrange
- Used the Xover to set the point the subs take over and adjusted the EQ below 150hz by ear.
- use the speakers full range, or bi-amp using the same stored flat/precurve setups.
Thanks so much in advance.
Once you have the PEQ's set to yield a \"near as possible flat return\" of subsequent auto EQ passes, the PEQ's (in theory) should never be touched. Then the GEQ is used for the \"room\" adjustments. The \"flattening\" process is simply to allow you to know that \"the system\" is reproducing (out) what it gets (in) accurately. All else is the room.
Gary developed his method because he's in Minnesota and he didn't want to go out in a blizzard. If you have good weather and low / no wind, do it both ways and compare your results. If you end up with the same results you know you did it right (peace of mind).
DRA
\"the natural response of the cabinet with the PEQ's from the info gathered from the Auto EQ function.\"
Is this mean I would need to do the auto EQ first? My thought was PEQ does not play a role in the auto EQ process is that right? I think I'm more confuse. It sounds like if I just use PEQ and left GEQ flat I could get good result. How do I invert auto EQ date to PEQ?
I though Gary mention we can add sub later after his auto EQ. Thanks Draa.
http://www.dbxpro.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... =auto++peq
DRA
Happy trails,
Gadgit
======================================
Press the RTA button.
Select flat curve response.
Select Low precision for this first pass, then step up to Med for fine tuning.
Set the level to be pretty loud, but not clipping the mic.
Pressing Next pg should start the process.
Open the GEQ display (if not defaulted there) and see what it did.
1st Look at the \"band\" areas. If most of the sub freqs are cut then turn down the x-over gain for the sub appropriately. Also applies to Hi's, etc. then re-Auto-EQ. (best to flatten the GEQ before re-doing)
2nd Look at the area around x-over point. If the EQ is cut there then you may need to wide the \"gap\" in the x-over a bit. Repeat as needed.
3rd Now you can focus of individual problems. If 500hz is boosted +4db, and the freqs just above and below are boosted +2db, then go to the PEQ and set up a filter to boost +4db with a \"Q\" wide enough to also catch the adjacent. You have 3 filters available to for Hi, 2 for the other bands. It will require some guess work with the \"Q\" setting, but that is OK. It may require a partially overlapping cuts and boost to get a sharp rise to the left and a slow drop off to the right. It is a good idea to write down each change you made, in case one adtustment really messes things up.
DRA
Here is what the equipment basically consists of:
Keyboard player = 2 Keyboard
Bass player - 1
Guitar player - 1
Probably four Vocal Mic hook up.
32-4 VLZ PRO = I think this is the mixer they are using.
SR1530z = 4 - I’m planning to put these speaker close together 2 on each side below the stage. Two of these are mine and I’ve been hooking the two speaker of mine to my 1642 VLZ3 mixer at home and been playing with DR260.
SWA1801z = 2 - I was thinking of putting the SWA1801z (sub) together in the center below in front of the stage.
How should I connect these speakers to my DR260? Should I use up all 6 outputs for the 6 speaker? What type of setting use I be looking at to set to?
Here is a screen shot of by current setup and I’m happy with the sound. It sounds pretty good. Thank in advance for your help guys!
Setting the 260 up for ind control of each cab does have benefits, but will also take longer to tweak in and more windows open on the screen. Personally, if a had the extra cables to make the runs, I'd put each on a separate output (all subs on one). Now, if I ran mono I'd pair the top pair on one and the bottom pair on one.
DRA
So, with two 90X40 cabs the obvious answer is flip em on their sides, horns together and splayed 40 degrees...
So whats left? well, I guess let a pair pump to the majority of the room, attempting to keep the sound off the hall walls, and aim the other two for front fills where the patterns don't overlap on a side, and power shade the front fills to just cover the center front crowd....There will be some interaction in the center front, but with the sound coming off the stage, and all it's usually worst place to listed anyway, but then they will most likely be dancing (?) in front... right, and not so much paying attention to anything but the subs, the person their dancing with, and the whole feelgood thing...
Yes subs dead center, you will need some delay in any scenario so make sure to at least sweep the tops to see where your at. Run each cab on a different output, even if you run the 260, and the monitors off the other..
subs one output, center fills on another and main feeds on the last one. That allows for power shading, delay, and monitors from one 260...
I really don't see how you can put those on top of each other... WAY too tippy, and hard to keep from toppling. Plus looks like the speaker has \"tits\" on top that without some adapters and some securing straps.. well, you get the idea...
should be fun, keep us informed...
Gadget
For a moment there I thought that PUTZ \"git\" was back.. then I saw how old this earlier thread was... :roll:
This means I'll need something stable enough to bring the two speaker on top of each other on each side to head level. Then use delay timing between the two center sub and the two side speakers? Is it possible for me to talk with you guys on the phone? It will help me understand your suggestion clearly. Thanks Guys.
It would have been nice to have seen your diagram, but there is no storage here.. you can however go to photo Bucket, create an account, and upload your pictures...
As for the setup, no, that won't work.. too low. Stand them up, with two facing out...(draw an imaginary line through the center of the speaker) hopefully tilted a little bit towards the outside walls ( a VERY little bit).. then, the inside pair angled so that the patterns just touch.. that would be.. 90 degrees ...for the ones that are aimed ever so slightly out (say10-15 degrees) then the others cover the middle and right in front of the stage (will be aimed around 30-45 degrees across the room(the 30 being toward the stage)...(this would also allow some of the sound to cross in the center of the stage area) Now the ones crossing the room would ONLY be covering the the dance floor area (and the aforementioned stage area) so you will NOT have them ANY where near as loud as the ones on the outside...and are only covering a small area to limit interaction. The subs in the center..
So, the the inside pair will most probably cross just in front of the subs...and the outside pair will cover the majority of the audience... If you have read the FAQ section, and the RMFBP.. threads then this is no surprise and you know that the LR 24 xover has a 7.5 ms delay, those subs have further delay (since they are not front loaded...but bandpass design, and so the sound takes a little time to get out... about 4-8ms area I'd guess...In the FAQ section I have included a way of more closely determining the delay necessary... without the use of an FFT measurement device.
Gadget
\"tilted a little bit towards the outside walls ( a VERY little bit).. then, the inside pair angled so that the patterns just touch.. that would be.. 90 degrees ...for the ones that are aimed ever so slightly out (say10-15 degrees) then the others cover the middle and right in front of the stage (will be aimed around 30-45 degrees across the room(the 30 being toward the stage)\"
When you said \"tilted a little bit towards the outside wall\" do you mean the side wall?
When you said \"the inside pair angled so that the patterns just touch\". I'm not too sure what you mean my this? Thanks so much Gadget!
There are (1-6) output on the DR260 which one is for the sub? You mention to set the sub as mono. Do I connect the two sub together (dazzy change) and have it connect to one of the 6 output on the DR260? If this is the case then I should have one output left over. Should I use it for monitor? Though I have a spare DRPA that I can use for monitor, would that better for monitor? If I use DRPA for monitor do I have to run it off a separate mixer board or can I dazzy change them. Sorry I maybe making it difficult then what it really is. Thanks so much Gadget!