Eqing the system

WitchsMark

Very confused on the EQing of the DRPA. Should I just run some full range music through the system and EQ by ear as best as possible?? Should I EQ using the Auto EQ, as described in the New Indoor Method or place the RTA the same distance from the speakers as the speakers are apart and do it that way with Auto EQ?? Can you explain a little better what this means to do between the GEQ & the PEQ [snip taken from New Indoor Auto EQ Method \"and that includes a couple passes @ -0- (flat) to get as flat a response as possible using the PEQ's with no \"GEQ\" equalization.\"?? From what I gather there is a method of EQing that involves Auto EQing and then taking the GEQ settings and applying them to the PEQ, and then Auto EQing again, and then repeat steps, but I'mm not sure it's not very clear.

kpippen

WitchsMark,

For starts I would play some music that you are very familiar with and use the GEQ... Is your system going to be moved from venue to venue or is it going to stay at one location?... If it's going to be moved then I wouldn't bother trying to EQ the system with AutoEQ... If you're wanting to EQ the speakers individually for a flat response then you would follow the AutoEQ indoor method... After the first AutoEQ pass record the results adjust the PEQ for that channel and repeat... The goal after subsequent passes is to PEQ each individual channel until you get the flattest response from each cab... Did you get the DBX RTA mic?... If not,...you may also want to look at the Audix TR-40...:D

Hope this helps!

Kev

Dra

I agree with Kevin (conditions for using auto EQ). I don't use the Indoor Method. It is actually a little easier for me to do the regular outdoor method when \"fixing\" cabinet response problems. Again, the PEQ's are to bring your cabinets to as near a \"Flat\" state as posible, so that their output = input with the GEQ flat (no adjustments). This is a fixed start point regardless of the room you play. Then the GEQ is used for nothing but room problems. Most of which you will be stuck with any way.

DRA

WitchsMark

Thanks guys for the replies. Couple of questions.
1.) I would like to EQ the speakers in my Practice room as this is the location where they are used the most. The statement of EQing the speakers individually, do you mean I have to EQ both of my 15's or just 1?? Cause thats all I use in Practice, no Subs just the 2-15\" Highs in stereo.

2.) The procedure would be to place the RTA mic(yes I have the accompanying Reference Mic) a few feet in front of the 15\" pointed at the ground with the 15\" tilted slightly downwards towards the MIC and then do the Auto EQ and adjust the PEQ with the GEQ results and then repeat until I get a somewhat flat response with the GEQ after doing the Auto-EQ's?? Is this correct??

Dra

The \"PEQ\" session only should have your cabs tilted. They MUST be in their play position for the \"room / GEQ\" session. Remember, 160 hz - 700 hz is all that can be trusted. All else by ear.

1) Just 1, your don't want 2 (or more) speakers talking to the RTA from different distances.
2) Correct.

DRA

WitchsMark

Dra wrote:

The "PEQ" session only should have your cabs tilted. They MUST be in their play position for the "room / GEQ" session.

Now I am quite confused... I didn't even no you could Auto-EQ using only the PEQ??

Dra

Sorry, the \"PEQ\" session I referred to is when you are Auto-EQing for the purpose of transfering the data from the GEQ to the PEQ.

I do wish there was an Auto-EQ direct to PEQ, but there isn't.

DRA

WitchsMark

So my #2 question above explains what your calling \"PEQ Session\" correct??

kpippen

WitchsMark wrote:

do the Auto EQ and adjust the PEQ with the GEQ results and then repeat until I get a somewhat flat response with the GEQ after doing the Auto-EQ's?? Is this correct??

Correct!...:D

WitchsMark

Ok, I setup my DBX RTA mic about 1/4\" pointing straight down off the ground, thin outdoor carpet with no padding beneath it. I placed one of my 15's about 2.5' in front of the Mic and tilted down so that the horn and Speaker are roughly aimed toward the MIC so that the MIC would seem to be directly between the both. I set the Auto EQ to 0 and High. These were the results.
31.5Hz ... +12.0
40.0Hz ... +12.0
50.0Hz ... +12.0
63.0Hz ... 0
80.0Hz ... -12.0
100.0Hz ... -12.0
125.0Hz ... -11.5
160.0Hz ... -1.0
200.0Hz ... +1.5
250Hz ... -1.5
315Hz ... -5.0
400HZ ... -2.5
500Hz ... +2.5
630Hz ... -7.0
800Hz ... -4.0
1.0kHz ... -4
1.25kHz ... 0
1.6kHz ... -2.5
2.0kHz ... -1.5
2.5kHz ... -3.0
3.15KhZ ... -2.0
4.0kHz ... -4.5
5.0kHz ... +2.5
6.3kHz ... -1.0
8.0kHz ... +8.5
10.0kHz ... +9.0
12.5kHz ... +10.5
16.0kHz ... +12.0

Going off of this how should I tweak my PEQ?? I am confident that once I get an idea how to set the first round I can probably handle the others.

Dra

I don't like what I see. What is the floor made of? Wood with a crawl space? Below sixty is obviously out of the cab's range. 80 - 125 is way hot. Like a resonance from a hollow wood floor. The middle looks normal and the 8K and up looks weak.
What speakers do you have? It could just be me but I have never been overly confident with the results I get with indoor testing. You should have gotten a +/- 3db through most of the band width. Some cab's only rate a +/- 10db. You are closer to that. Were you playing (pinking) loud? For the indoor method the volume does not have to be very loud.

DRA

WitchsMark

Dra wrote:

I don't like what I see. What is the floor made of?

It is concrete with outdoor carpet laid over it.

Dra wrote:

What speakers do you have?

THey are Peavey 115HC II's...

Dra wrote:

Were you playing (pinking) loud?

Around -15 to -13

Dra

The carpet may have absorbed content 8K and up. Those cabs have a tweet. Are you sure they are working? Try laying a piece of plywood or other reflective surface for the mic to catch the reflection. Re-do the auto EQ.

But just to give you an idea with your current findings...
To take care of the +12 @ 50hz (and below) - use the x-over filter to cut at 55hz BW18.

PEQ - set to H-shelf
F1 - (dip at 100) 100hz Gain = -12 Q = (about 2.5)
F2 - (dip at 800) 800hz Gain = -4 Q = (about 2.5)
F3 (For the 8k up) - (shelf) 6.3KHz slope = 12 gain = +10

These are guesses and you have to make the adjustments then re-pink. Make mods, then re-pink until you're happy.

DRA

WitchsMark

Dra wrote:

Those cabs have a tweet. Are you sure they are working?

Well it has a dual Piezo speakers that fire through a horn, I don't know if thats the same as a tweeter or not, but regardless yes they are working.

Dra wrote:

Try laying a piece of plywood or other reflective surface for the mic to catch the reflection. Re-do the auto EQ.

Will try when I get home from work.

Gadget

CARPET is not good here...hard surface ONLY! get the mic closer.. 1/8th - 1/16th inch...

Try again...
G

WitchsMark

I just can't get those low end frequencies kicked no matter what I do. I have fought with it tooth and nail for like 6 straight hours. I put a piece of wood down to eliminate the carpet issue. I am thinking that maybe the room I am using is just too cluttered with surfaces. I am just going to take everything to Moms house this weekend and try the open field method.

Dra

Are you talking about 80, 100, 125hz? Are you getting improvement there? What are the results?

DRA

Gadget

If those are the old \"international\" series that were stamped basket woofer 200 watt jobs, and you are getting the first 4 bands fully pegged @ +12 db its because the speakers cannot reproduce those frequencies! I don't care what the \"book\" says, you are probably 3db down @ 70 hz with those things... Even the new SP's are 3db down @ 55 hz...(by the specs.. I bet they are more like 5-10 db down @ 55hz...)

This all means that in comparison to the other frequencies the low ones are not heard..so the Auto EQ boosts them in the GEQ to try and get them to register. Ignore the outcome and zero those bands manually...

Gadget

WitchsMark

Ok will do. So, what if I were to start from scratch and get a new reading. Ignore the first 4-bands and ultimately manually 0 those, and then use the PEQ to adjust the rest as best as possible. I should only trust up to the 700Hz with the RTA and then do the rest by ear correct??
Is this a descent idea??

Gadget

That 150-700 hz is for EQing in ROOMS... where multiple reflected paths to the mic exist... in this method all reflections are eliminated. The info provided by the Indoor method, although flawed in that only 28 measurements are taken when 128 would be more accurate, is valid within the parameters it is capable of measuring. Therefore, you could use the info you got when you placed the speaker on a board... however, a concrete surface or floor that is fastened down would be better.

How does the speaker sound after the Auto EQ pass?

Gadget

WitchsMark

Ok... I moved the carpet revealing a 7x7 area of solid concrete. I positioned the speaker at an angle and placed the RTA about 3feet in front of it pointing straight down about an 1/8\" or closer to the concrete. Made sure everything was set correctly and did an Auto. Results:
31.5= +12
40 = +12
50 = +12
63 = +12
80 = -9
100 = -12
125 = +1
160 = -.5
200 = -4
250 = -.5
315 = 0
400 = +1
500 = 0
630 = -6
800 = -1.5
1k = -.5
1.25= -1.5
1.6 = +1
2.0 = -1.5
2.5 = +.5
3.15= -5.0
4.0 = -1
5.0 = +2.5
6.3 = -1.5
8.0 = +10
10.0= -4.5
12.5= -8
16.0= +12
The sound is not that bad in my opinion. I mean we have had 2 rehearsals since I got this thing and it has been nothing but an improvement overall, the very first night we used it the band was telling me how awesome everything sounded and how good the levels were, and the little bit of feedback we did endure was snipped out within a second due to the AFS. I am just wondering how much better it can be, and I want to get the most out of the system I can. I do not have the greatest of sound judgement either, so what sounds good to me you all might hear it and say holy crap there way too much Bass or the Highs are just not cutting through correctly, etc.. Regardless what adjustments do you think for the above results?? Gadget should I manually cut the first 4-bands?? then what??

Gadget

Hmmm you should have maybe gotten a \"not done\" message with this EQ product...

Yes, zero the first 4 and last band manually...those speakers obviously can't do 16K audio either...

Looks like your going to need a high shelf @ about 10k 12db/ oct , you'll need to play with the gain to see how much cut will be needed but looks like maybe -8... thats probably those nasty aluminum diaphragms.. the 22A... do yourself a favor, see if it is, and if it in fact is the 22A diaphragms, get the 22 XT diaphragms... they are SWEET by comparison.. it will take care of a lot of that HF trouble you have...

A bell @ 8.0k start @ about 5.016 Q with +10 db...

Maybe a similar narrow filter @ 100 hz to try and take that 100 hz down a bit but that looks suspect...If you can verify that there is too much 100 hz, perhaps that is a standing wave ... try moving the whole rig a few feet and see if it changes the 80 and 100 hz dips. (probably closer to a boundary would be best You could use the room mode calculator to determine if that room has a problem at that frequency as well... it's located in the \"welcome\" post as a link there) Note... the process does not need as high a signal volume as direct field measurement...

Try those things and then re auto EQ and see if it is any better,,, the key here is to use the PEQ's on the most drastic cuts or boosts...then re- auto and see if your closer to -0-.

Are you using subs? I can't remember if you did or not from the other post, and if so what are you setting the crossover at?

Gadget

WitchsMark

I just got off the phone with Peavey and the technician looked up the specs on the 115HCii.
Frequency Response = 60Hz to 17K
8 OHM
Power Handle 150W Continuous/300W [sounded like he said per room]
Sensitivity 100db

Dra

150 Cont
300 Program

Based on the response you got (test) and the reply from Peavey the range is +/- 10 db. So you did well on the pinking session.

DRA

Gadget

+- 3db.. thats funny...maybe +- 10 db...How exactly does a 10 db boost at 8k figure into a +- 3db? Not to mention 630hz and 3.15K?.. As I said I bet they are the aluminum diaphragms...I had them and when the 22XT titanium ones came out I jumped on them... they were/are about $30-40...

Gadget

WitchsMark

Well, as soon as I can I am probably going to upgrade these 115HCii's. I mean they are atleast 15 years old and have served their purpose. 150W??? I had no idea. I will atleast upgrade to 300W Cont, maybe some JBL's or stick with the Peavey family... regardless any upgrade will more than likely be a good one.

Dra

When you decide to make the move, don't talk to salesmen. Post here and at PSW and ask USERS about the level of cabinets that you want.

DRA

WitchsMark

These are my choices that I can afford:
Can I use the Peavey's below with my 18\" Subs still??
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Peavey-PV-2 ... 1152988.gc

Here is another option: Again I should be able to use my 18\" Subs and make these Mids/Highs correct??
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Peavey-SP-5 ... 1152993.gc

From JBL:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/JBL-JRX115- ... 1152818.gc

Or These: Again can I use these with 18\" Subs in a 3-Way format
http://www.guitarcenter.com/JBL-JRX125- ... 1152819.gc

Dra

You list $300, $400, and $460 speaker. So you'd pay up to $920 for a shipped pair?

DRA

WitchsMark

No, I am just posting the speaker priced out by itself... they have deals for getting 2 that lowers the price as seen here:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/JBL-JRX125- ... 1152806.gc
And I can pick these up at my local Guitar Center, so I wouldn't have to do shipping.
Otherwise I am able to get away with $1000 for 2 speakers, but they have to be from Guitar Center because I have a Credit Line with them.

Dra

JRX and PV series cabs are really scraping....
Maybe Kevin with chime in. He installed some JRX's in a church auditorium and may can shed some light. (If he doesn't, PM him at KPippen)
GC carries Yamaha. They have a good bang for the buck rep at PSW.
Do side by side comparisons at GC of all the cabs, preferally without subs and crossed at about 100hz. That way you will not be confused if one has a fuller bottom end (since it won't be used) and listen for clarity at volume. Don't rule out 12\" speakers since you run subs.

DRA