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JBL setup
Scottie
Posts: 13
DRA,
Yes another novice here attempting to have light shed on the DRPA. I have the following equipment:
2 QSC 1450 power amps
2 JBL JRX125 double Cab (15\")
1 JBL JRX118S passive sub (18\")
2 Mackie single (15\") (want to use as monitors)
1 Phonic Soundstation 22 channel mixer
This is a basic church setup that I am trying to configure:
1.The two double cabs will function as House (mains) and will be facing the audience and mount about 10 feet in the air on the left and right of the Pulpit. They will be separated by approximately 40 feet.
2. The two monitors are on the floor centered in front of the stage facing the pulpit (podium). They are separated by aproximately 5-6 feet.
3 the sub woofer will possibly be located on the stage floor on the left wall under the left double cab.
What I am seeking help with is how i can configure this setup. I have currently 4 inputs on the stage floor and only 4 outputs from the amps that i can use for speakers. As you can see I have five speakers. So something has to be ran in paralell. I'm thinking the Floor monitors, being that all I want to come through those are vocals and very little if any instruments. The monitors are to allow my singers to hear themselves and each other better. Too much music would make it dificult to hear. I am not sure what needs to go into the driverack PA and what should go striaight out of the amps. I want to be able to control the monitors in a way that whomever is using our facilityu can have as little or as much of the channels they want in the monitors with out having to change the house settings.
As far as the DRPA goes I hope that I can achieve my goals. I want the house speakers to be full range as well as the monitors and I want the sub to help carry the bottom. I do not have and RTA mic, in fact I'm not sure what that is. I would really like some help on this one. something tells me I am making it harder than it has to be. If you give me the steps I will gladly listen.
Yes another novice here attempting to have light shed on the DRPA. I have the following equipment:
2 QSC 1450 power amps
2 JBL JRX125 double Cab (15\")
1 JBL JRX118S passive sub (18\")
2 Mackie single (15\") (want to use as monitors)
1 Phonic Soundstation 22 channel mixer
This is a basic church setup that I am trying to configure:
1.The two double cabs will function as House (mains) and will be facing the audience and mount about 10 feet in the air on the left and right of the Pulpit. They will be separated by approximately 40 feet.
2. The two monitors are on the floor centered in front of the stage facing the pulpit (podium). They are separated by aproximately 5-6 feet.
3 the sub woofer will possibly be located on the stage floor on the left wall under the left double cab.
What I am seeking help with is how i can configure this setup. I have currently 4 inputs on the stage floor and only 4 outputs from the amps that i can use for speakers. As you can see I have five speakers. So something has to be ran in paralell. I'm thinking the Floor monitors, being that all I want to come through those are vocals and very little if any instruments. The monitors are to allow my singers to hear themselves and each other better. Too much music would make it dificult to hear. I am not sure what needs to go into the driverack PA and what should go striaight out of the amps. I want to be able to control the monitors in a way that whomever is using our facilityu can have as little or as much of the channels they want in the monitors with out having to change the house settings.
As far as the DRPA goes I hope that I can achieve my goals. I want the house speakers to be full range as well as the monitors and I want the sub to help carry the bottom. I do not have and RTA mic, in fact I'm not sure what that is. I would really like some help on this one. something tells me I am making it harder than it has to be. If you give me the steps I will gladly listen.
0
Comments
The DRPA is not set up to do want I think you want to do. The 260 can, but that is another .....
If you were wanting to have the monitors output the \"same mix\" as the house but only at a lower level it could be done with some success. You are at a tough spot in what to do with your sub. The (1) 18 can't produce the SPL of the (4) 15's, but the 15's will be punchier and cleaner if crossed and allowing the 18 to handle the low content. A general thought is that diferent size speakers (18's & 15's) reproducing the same note, tends to muddy the water. Generally the 125's would cross around 90-100 hz, but given the circumstances, I'd cross them at 70hz.
In the Wizard, select your cabs and amps (not that it matters one bit), but read and do the READ ME FIRST section and set the gain structure , etc.
Set the x-over as...
lows - 45hz BW18 - 70hz LR24
Highs - 70hz LR24
That should get you going. Post back if you get stuck.
DRA
I suppose you could try an UNlinked(Stereo) 2x3, with the monitors run off of the right DRPA channel.
1. left hi out of DRPA feeds \"Parallel mono\" amp 1, one spaeker per channel (select this on the back of the amp along with 50 hz filter.
2. the left low/mono out feeds channel 1 of the other QSC 1450, your power would be limited but.
3. the right ..hi out would then will feed the monitors thorough channel 2 of QSC amp 2, with a parallel connection of the monitors. Individual GEQ and PEQ's are available for all channels as are FBX and limiters. Use of the limiters on the amps limits their output capability by 15-20%.
That work for you?
G
Left input to Hi (L) & Lo (L) for mains: Left GEQ, Hi & Lo (L&R) PEQ, Hi & Lo (L&R) Limiters, & Delay.
Right input to Mid (R) for monitors: Right GEQ, Mid (R) PEQ, Mid (R)Limiters, & Delay.
The FBX is L&R linked so feedback on left also cuts on right, and visa-versa.
Gadget, correct me if I'm wrong.
DRA
The GEQ is separable, since we know the \"not finished\" can mean it's not linked
Not certain about the PEQ's yet, but you could do a 2X5 or 2X6 and have that capability...FBX would probably be restricted.
G
Sorry for the delaye update. i had to go under the floor and rewire all of the jacks. I found out that someone had wired the jacks in parallel at the floor instead of giving me all four in my control booth I only had two. anyway I fixed the problem and wored everything up. I have not had a chance to try your suggestions as I am just now getting bakc to you guys. The problem I am having is I can no longer control the volume on my left channel on my board after connecting everything (monitor connected straight to amp). I get sound out of my left house speaker with the slider all the way down. I tried unhooking the dbx and running everything to the amps and it works fine that way so I'm sure it is somethnig to do with the driveRack PA.
DRA
Gadget
1 Phonic SoundStation 22 channel mixer with 6 Aux Sends
2 JRX125's (mains) on platforms about 10 feed in the air on both sifes of the stage facing in to the audience.
1 JRX118S (sub) on the stage floor on the left side of the stage (could go on either side ambout 3 feet in from the JRX125)
2 Mackie 15\" (monitors) on both sides of the Pulpit (podium) facing the vocal mics behind the podium
2 QSC 1450 amps in the console room.
I have the mixer L and R OUTs going IN to the L/R inputs on the DRPA
I have the DRPA OUTs (High) L Mono /R going to CH1 and CH2 IN of AMP1, and AMP1 CH1 and CH2 OUTs to the L and R (mains) respectivly.
I have the DRPA OUTs (Low) L Mono going to CH1 IN of AMP2, and AMP2 CH1 out going to the sub
I have Aux Send 4 on my mixer going directly to CH2 IN of AMP2, and AMP2 CH2 OUT going to Left Monitor. Right monitor is in paralell to Left monitor at the speaker with 1/4\" TRS cable. The purpose of the Aux Send in this case is to allow me to choose which signals I want on the Aux Send 4 line (vocals and very little instrumentation) and then send that to the monitors. Right now I get everything on this line no matter what the aux send 4 gain nob is set to on each channel.
I have everything hooked up and got a complete AutoEQ and AFS. However I can not control anything with my L and R sliders on my board. I can only control the individual levels. If I take the DRPA out of the loop i can control everthnig fine but I don't have the crossover, EQ and Feedback protection that I get with it in the loop. I am having trouble sorting through the lack of mixer funtionality with the DRPA in the loop.
I've charted out your system and find nothing wrong.
Are these 2 things true?
1) Mains Masters on board do not control volume. AND
2) Everything works fine without DRPA connected including channel Aux's.
Is you sub / monitor amp paralleled or mono'd in any way (switch or wire)?
Connect one signal chain only at a time.
Start with the aux line.
Do the output meters for the mains work as you raise and lower sliders?
Add the DRPA only (no amps connected).
Does the aux still work right?
Do the output meters for the mains work as you raise and lower sliders?
Add High right to speaker.
Does aux work?
Do the output meters.....?
Does the speaker output confirm control?
Add High left speaker.
?
?
?
Add the sub patch.
?
?
?
DRA
DRA
G
I get really great sound with the DRPA in the loop. What I'm saying is I can not control the master volume using the sliders on my mixer. each individual channel slider works fine and is in fac the only way I've been able to control the levels. I expected to created the blend I want with the individual channels then use my masters to increase/decrease my volume.
Dra,
As far as the monitors and the sub amp being bridged or paralelled I will have to check. I can answer this:
Sub is on Ch2 of Amp2 and Monitor is on Ch1 of Amp2. Where are you going with that question. perhaps the switched on the amp have something to do with it?
I will try you brute force method and see if and results yeild.
Not sure what you mean by the angling. Each of the double cabs are 45 degrees or so facing in from the side walls adjacent to the walls imagine a base ball diamond from the home place perspective facing the pitcher (the building is a square but on angle). The cabs would be at 3rd base and 1st bast respectifly (10' in the air). the stage woulde be the remainder of the diamond behindthe pitchers mound but not even with the cabs (not even with 1st and and third). the monitor would be to the left and right of the pitchers mound (pitchers mound is wher the podium is). Sub is on the left edge of the stage (further back than the cab and on the stage floor).
That may have confused things even more but I hope you guys understand. I get plenty of quality sound but I cannot control the master sliders.
i will try and configure things again step by step with out the DRPA then add it in ans see if I can figure out what human error I have made.
Angles: I'm talking about tipping the cabs forward about 15 degrees. It needs to be safely done. MUCH less reverberation in the room and thus much less feedback. (Thanks, Gadget)
DRA
Are you sure you are plugged into the L/R XLR outs under the MONO sub out?
Are you surer the main control room swap buttons aren't pressed?
Are you perhaps in the Submaster outs?
do you have the L/R button pressed on each individual channel?
Are you using something in the \"inserts\" for the mains? those 1/3 \" jacks right next to the L/R XLR outs?
This is strange... answer those questions..make sure no buttons are pressed that make the mixer do that... try every button one ata time if necessary...
Get back to me..
Gadget
Dra,
I can say for sure that they are cabled separately but if there is a setting on the dip switch on the rear that may link them somhow, then that is something I need to look into.
Gadget,
my mixer has three outs L, R, Mono/Sub. I have 1/4-XLR cables going from L and R to the DRPA INs and nothing going from the Mono/Sub. I can control the volumes of each individual channel using the slider and the gain knobs as well as the H/Mid/Low knobs. I CANNOT control the sound with the Mains. I can control it with the Aux Send Slider (Why I have not the slightest idea). I want the monitor slider to only control the monitors.
Without adding complexity to the situation perhaps I should reset the entire board (undo all groupings and AUX sends) and add it all back in one by one until I get a snag. I could very well be asking the wrong questions. I will get back to you guys monday. Feel free to offer suggestion between now and then.
DRA
http://www.phonic.com/en/mixers/nonpowe ... on-22.html
Were they DOWN? I bet not...
Gadget
I think he is in the insert jack for mains!
Scottie stated:-
The cable you should be using is xlr to xlr
Reason,
Where the back of the desk says \"Main left\" and \"Main right\" the xlr connector is main output (The send that goes to the DRPA)
The 6.5mm TRS or 1/4 jack is an \"insert\" point marked \"ins\"
(The desk is not well labled and is a common mistake)
Ins will not give you and output of the desk (unless you use some specially wired leads)
Try using a mic lead and see what happens
Check out back panel photo http://www.phonic.com/en/mixers/nonpowe ... on-22.html
Mark
PS Gadget wrote
No, bet he swaped xlr for jacks and went into the ins
Think you nailed it Gadget.
DRA
Well I am absolutly certain that Iplugged into the 1/4 INS (I don't know why I though it was an option to use either or). I will check the problem out tommorow and see if that fixes the situation for me. I will update you guys. Thanks Fanman20. Always good to have someone read the fine detail. I should have never missed that one though! Stay tuned.
DRA
If you have used the jacks, the inserts are pre Master faders
Check out page 19 of your manual
Thats why you have no control of the masters.
What 1/4 jacks are you using?? TRS or TS
TRS is Tip ring sleave (“Balanced� connector)(sometimes know as stereo connector)
TS is Tip sleave (unbalanced connector)(sometimes known as mono connector)
Mark
As Fanman said.. USE MIC CABLES!
Gadget
how did you get on???
Mark
I swapped out the TRS jacks for XLRs and I have full control of my board. I auto EQ'd the system flat and it sounded nice. One thing I did notice was the bottom was almost non-existant on some of the notes on my reference CD. My latest question is for advice on setting for the cross-over that would give me more bottom. I am also wondering, when I cross the H freq at 70 Hz and the L freq at 45 - 106 Hz ( just for example) does that overlap play on both the sub and house mains, or is it washed out and not played distinctly on either. It was kinda frustrating because I know what the song sounds like without the sub and the DRPA and it seemed to have more bottom.
Scottie
Well done on getting he system working
Your question
There are lots of factors that affect bottom end in a room,
Speaker location in a room to electronics, x overs nulls etc
While you are waiting on the boys for a suggestion on x over points read this article. It will help with some basics
Linkwitz-Riley, Butterworth, are names that will come up and are good to know about
http://www.lenardaudio.com/education/06_x-over.html
Good luck, play hard and most of all have fun
Mark
Gadget
I have taken a couple of weeks and everything seems to be working great. However every now and then I get alot of feed back in the system. I adjusted the AFS to use only 2 fixed filters and 8 Live filters and I have watched the DRPA display during service. It seems the AFS tends to run out of filters. Please offer any suggestions as to the cause or a possible fix t okill the feedback.
I wonder if not having the monitors gonig through the DRPA has anything to do with the feedback. I did discuss this option with you guys earlier.
What I think is:
Because the frequencies that are being killed (filtered out) by the DRPA are still being transmitted through the monitors, this causes the DRPA to think those frequencies are still in the system (picked up by the mics transmitted back to the board to the and back to DRPA) and uses another filter to kill it. Once all the filters have been exhausted that the system feeds back. I do understand that the DRPA will round robin the filters as it detects new feedback, however perhaps the DRPA is overloaded until the intensity of the signal dies down (We sing, play and speak softer, or there is a pause).
Tell me what you guys think of my amatuer assessment.
Gadget: Go easy on me...
Any lavalier mics used in the system? Those are omni-direction in nature and much more likely to cause feedback. are all the mics similar... like SM58's? or are there a number of mics.. and if so what please...
You need to set the FBX to 6 fixed and 6 roaming...that will allow the fixed ones to continue to hold out those first 6 problem freqs...How many mics are open when the feedback occurs? Do you actively run the system? do you do a \"ring\" the system out before the service where you run the gain up well beyond the point the service is going to be... NOTE all mics need to be on and up to performance volume when you do the FBX runs...
when the feedback occurs you need to eliminate the monitors feeds to see if the problem goes away with it...If it does the monitors need to be turned DOWN or tuned properly to eliminate the feedback...this is also \"ringing the system out and requires an equalizer to do it.. PEQ or GEQ but in the latter a 28-31 band would be far superior to a \"carpet bomber\" like a 15 band EQ...
What mixer are you using... Oh ya ... the Phonic...and I assume you are running the monitors from the AUX sends on the FOH mixer...are you using PRE fader aux sends for the monitors... if your using POST fader sends then any increase in the fader will increase the monitors volume as well...and that can cause a NASTY feedback...
ALL the questions need to be answered...for me to help here...
gadget