A thought. If feedback in the monitors is making the DRPA think that feedback is in the mains.... Wow! that would have to be deafening loud feedback. The kind that would fry a horn. Having said that, I don't think that is what is going on.
What processing do you have between the aux outs and the monitor amps? Are the problem frequencies high, low, what? If they are mostly in the horn, put a sock in it. Literally.
What I did to flatten the system is connect a mic to the RTA input about 25-30 feet from the Mains. I chose flat for the performance curve to AutoEQ. I chose MED precision. It ran to completion. I then set the AFS with 6 fixed and 6 live, reduced the volume on everything (wasn’t sure if it was supposed to just be the mains so I turned everything down. I then raised the individual channels up first to 0 db where I normally never pass. I did not touch the gain knobs, only the channel sliders. After getting no feedback after doing all 8 mics (6 e835 and 2 ew835) I raise the instrument sliders and the CD/IPOD slider to right under 0db. At this point all used channels are back to above performance level. I then raised the main sliders (In stereo) to 0db where I normally try to keep them. 3 fixed filters kicked in. I then raise the mic grouping main with no problem, then I raise the Instrument grouping main with no problem. The final slider was the monitor that I have controlled with my 4th group/Aux (swap button pushed to allow me to use the slider instead of the knob for the monitors). The monitors added a 2 more fixed filter. After running through a Wednesday service, a Sunday service and another Wednesday service and still getting feedback decided to monitor the filters myself as service goes on. I sing also and play sax so I usually set it and forget it. What I noticed was that the live filters were saturated. So I decided it would be better to give the system more flexibility by allowing the live filters to compose 9 of the filters and leave the fixed at 3. I re-did all the filter setting until I fill 3 fixed and left everything there, with the rest being live filters. My hope was for the system to take care of the rest with the ability to actively cut the bad freqs. Till this day I get serious feed back when there are a lot of low chords played on the keyboard or when the bass guitar digs really deep. I did put a cut frequency on the sub woofer at 42 Hz (the lowest frequency a bas guitar can produce). I got that from the literature in the Welcome pages you guys provided. No lavaliere mics. There are just the 2 UHF ew835 and 6 wired e835s from Sennheiser. As you can see the wireless and wired mics use the same pick-up. I have gold serried Magomi mic cables on everything. The system sounds really good but sometimes without doing anything we get the feedback. The sound is a very low sound, around a low G or F on keyboard if you know music. It is consistently the same tone each time the feedback comes through. If I lower the monitors it typically does go away. I’m not sure about the pre-fader/post-fader aux send setting. I learn something new each day. I will see the system tomorrow evening and will check. I also wonder if there is a basic EQ on that Aux Send. Maybe I need to take some lows out of the monitors. Just a thought. I’ll get back to you on that one. I do know that I have the monitors on a fader of its own. Are you saying that any increase to the mains will increase the monitors in the case of a POST fader setup?
DRA,
What I meant was the DRPA has cut certain freqs from mains and sub. However the monitors are full range as they are coming straight from the board. My thought was maybe the system still senses those cut frequencies from the monitors via the mics and is attempting t cut the same freq from a the mains and sub assuming that it did not actually get cut them. Confusing but I hope you understand. I may be totally wrong but that is what I was saying. As far as processing between the Aux Send and the monitor amp, there is nothing in between them. Should I DI box that line signal? I figure it is a line signal being that I am using a TRS cable. The Cable is actually a TRS- XLR 3 foot cable. That may be foolish too but I thought I’d ask. Don’t quote me on the TS vs. TRS cable. I’m learning guys.
This whole thing is full of problems.... the way you Auto EQ the system...would NEVER get the system flat...In your case your going to need to get the measurement mic MUCH closer to the speakers... about 2 feet would be about as far as I'd get away from it.
It also sounds like your running the monitors off one of an AUX fader. The only way that can work is to use an aux PRE FADER send as an individual send and an aux master...as an overall mix master...(which is pretty useless actually).
Your way of setting up each channel is problematic at best..You should be using the channel fader @ the unity point ... then use the input gain control (with the PFL depressed) to set the input level of each channel using the master meters to determine the actual input level.... Once that is set (input gain knob... the top one on each channel) LEAVE THEM ALONE. If you change the position of those after you set the monitor levels it will CAUSE FEEDBACK!!!! THEN use the channel fader for final adjustment of that channel in the mains only!
E 635's have a harsh 3.5 khz area (vocal boost) that could also be causing your problem since its NOT FLAT...
It seem as though you are getting feedback through the foldback speakers and hoping that the DRPA (which is connected to the FOH speakers) is going to stop the feedback
Is this right?? (If so it will never fix the feed back issues. If will find them and pull them down but not in foldback where they start)
I wonder if not having the monitors gonig through the DRPA has anything to do with the feedback.
I'm thinking first things first,
1. put 1/3 octave eq over foldback. (Dra’s suggestion)
2. Turn down foldback one week (way down low) and see if you still get problem
3. Don’t put lapel mic through foldbacks
Mark
This is the right way to set up your desk for Aux sends to foldback monitors.
(I like the GP/Aux swap button but you can get trapped by it)
Firstly at G suggests
Pre /post fader button on each channel must be in the \"pre fader\" mode.
Ensure that all pre/post buttons on each channel is in the up position. (just below the Aux 2 fader and the Aux 4 fader) on all channels
(Google pre / post to see the difference (Very important)
Now the GP/Aux swap button on the AUX ? GP ? masters. Push one of them down (turns the group into a Aux master)
Now you have control of your foldback monitors / aux sends in \"Pre fader mode\" and on a slider.
Nice set up
I suspect that you have got some or all pre/post buttons in the post position!!
Am I right????
Sorry for the delay. a Few facts I think I should mention concerning my setup.
1. I have the the monitors feed coming straight from mixer to amp to foldbacks.
2. I havethe ability through the aux sends to control what channels are present on that feed. All I currently have on that feed is just vocals. no instrumentation no, CD/IPOD.
3. I honestly can't find the feedback and my last thought was for it to be coming from the one element that the AFS can't control which are the foldbacks.
So yes I think the feedback is coming from the monitors (foldbacks) but they are not going through the DRPA. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Dra's suggestion and the 1/3 octave EQ, and I have tried putting the monitors way down but then the vocalist are not abel to hear themselves. The wireless mics were in the monitors but I I removed the mas a test for feedback and they have been removed from the monitors eversense.
Oh and as far as the pre/post faders, I will have to look and check the buttons and make sure they are all pre/fader. I have never even look prior to your recomendation. So Thanks for that detail. Also I have the 75hz filter on each mic already even the wireless mics. I have a full set of drum mics but they are not connected as I wanted to solve the feedback problem first. Lastly I do have the coresponding Aux Send GP/Aux swap button pressed so that I have a master slider for the monitors. I'll get back to you on the Pre/post setup and wether that fixed anything.
Gadget,
Is it counter-productive to AutoEQ trhe speakers in a postion other than where they are to be mounted. I ask because you mentioned that I should have EQ'd with the mic 2 feet away fro mthe speakers. So I'd have to tke them down and place them side byside in the center of the rom and put the mic in front of them.
Scottie,
Never is long time.
You'll never be able to get any volume from the monitors without feedback, if you don't put a 31-band EQ or a feedback killer such as peavey's ferret or dbx's AFS244, etc. It just isn't going to happen. If you are a novice at all this, I'd recommend a peavey EQ with the feedback indicators over the slider that is feeding back. I think some other brands have that feature as well now.
DRA
PS - is there a soft back drop behind the performers or is it solid reflective walls.
Have you pulled the MASTER monitor fader when the feedback occurs?
Get the system up and running...with all the mics on, run each individual fader up (with the monitors off) and see how far up you can run each fader till they feed back. This should give you a pretty good idea what the main system can do before feedback...This could be done with and without the FBX unit on...this will also help determine problematic mics...
After that get the main system back to normal and add the monitors and repeat the process.... Note: Here is a good way to see if a mic is goin g to feedback...cup your hand into a bowl like shape and go to each mic and get closer and closer to the mic till you are ultimately touching the mic... run the cup all around the mic to see if there is a problem...It will tell you if you are \"reflection\" feedback prone...
As for the monitors... What Dra is saying is add an EQ if the monitors have to be flippin loud.. otherwise, use the \"ring out the system\" method as above to determine the level the monitors can go to without feedback...and THAT IS ALL YOU GET!!!!
All of the pre/post fader buttons were set correctly. As were the 75hz filters on all vocal mics. Thanks for that suggestion however. I did reseearch this subject area and it is alot clearer to me now.
Gadget,
You remind me of my dad who get's irritated by his little kids foolish antics. LOL (not sure how old you are but that means I'm laughing). Anyway I did get the system ringged out. I did get a temproray 31 band EQ from another church and put it between the mixer and the amp all sliders at 0. It was just me in the building doing the ring out so I took one of the bags that the mics come with and put it on the first mic head. at the EQ and starting from left to right I moved the sliders up till I got a ring. most sliders did not ring but the 6K slider was horrible aling with the 1k slider. A few others rang a little bit but basically how every much I had to go up to get a ring is how much below 0 I took the trouble slider. I hope that was correct. I didn't want to take it all the way down because it was my thinking that the system would loose musicality if I took the sliders all the way down. All in all I think that sloved the problem with the foldbacks.
DRA,
Sorry I didn't understand your plain english suggestion for getting an EQ on my foldbacks. I'm a little slow sometimes. I did borrow an EQ from another church and rang out the system like gadget suggested. I am definitly going to get another EQ with the indicators on each channel. I know I will have to ring out all over again but now I think I know what to do. Also I think I will go and re-run the AFS setup with the monitor rangged out so that the DRPA can only try to cut the frequencies truley coming out of the mains. It may be unnecessary but I just want to be sure. The system sounds good other than that.
I'm the \"Old sound man\" Older than dirt and getting cranky in my old age... :evil: Sometimes it seems that the message isn't getting out, and that frustrates me. My motto is, and has been \"the difficult we do immediately, the impossible just takes a little longer\"...an old adage from my dad. I know we threw a lot of ideas at you, and there was a lot to understand, but you could have easily limited the scope of the problem by eliminating the monitors when the feedback occurred, and that was one of my first suggestions.
I also recommended you get the mic closer to the speakers when you do an auto EQ for a reason.. the farther away the more reflected cancellations will affect the \"musicality\" as you put it, of the system. I would take a step ladder, a long board with a mic stand taped to it and held by someone... whatever is necessary to get a baseline flat response.
The thing about monitors is, if you don't have an outboard EQ to ring out the monitors you only have them up to a level that they will not feed back...the singers or muso's just have to deal with it lacking a more expensive solution (like the EQ)
Sorry if I vented on you but of late we have had an unusual number of beginners trying to do things that it takes years of experience and or training to solve. We are all volunteers here and have only a finite amount of time to devote to this site, and so when we suggest things that we see as important and they don't seem to be getting addressed ... well you can see that that wouldn't be good.
Well done in getting this far and solving the feed back problem.
Another way of making the foldbacks sound better is to temporarily put the DRPA on the foldback send.
The order is:-
Mixer, EQ , DRPA amp, foldback speakers.
Set the eq flat.
Now “Auto eq� the DRPA. (place RTA mic close to the foldback speaker)
Transfer the DRPA GEQ settings the EQ
Remove the DRPA and put it back on the FOH system
What that will do is \"Flatten\" the foldback speakers.
You will still need to \"chase\" feedback freq’s but the foldback speakers should sound better
Comments
What processing do you have between the aux outs and the monitor amps? Are the problem frequencies high, low, what? If they are mostly in the horn, put a sock in it. Literally.
DRA
What I did to flatten the system is connect a mic to the RTA input about 25-30 feet from the Mains. I chose flat for the performance curve to AutoEQ. I chose MED precision. It ran to completion. I then set the AFS with 6 fixed and 6 live, reduced the volume on everything (wasn’t sure if it was supposed to just be the mains so I turned everything down. I then raised the individual channels up first to 0 db where I normally never pass. I did not touch the gain knobs, only the channel sliders. After getting no feedback after doing all 8 mics (6 e835 and 2 ew835) I raise the instrument sliders and the CD/IPOD slider to right under 0db. At this point all used channels are back to above performance level. I then raised the main sliders (In stereo) to 0db where I normally try to keep them. 3 fixed filters kicked in. I then raise the mic grouping main with no problem, then I raise the Instrument grouping main with no problem. The final slider was the monitor that I have controlled with my 4th group/Aux (swap button pushed to allow me to use the slider instead of the knob for the monitors). The monitors added a 2 more fixed filter. After running through a Wednesday service, a Sunday service and another Wednesday service and still getting feedback decided to monitor the filters myself as service goes on. I sing also and play sax so I usually set it and forget it. What I noticed was that the live filters were saturated. So I decided it would be better to give the system more flexibility by allowing the live filters to compose 9 of the filters and leave the fixed at 3. I re-did all the filter setting until I fill 3 fixed and left everything there, with the rest being live filters. My hope was for the system to take care of the rest with the ability to actively cut the bad freqs. Till this day I get serious feed back when there are a lot of low chords played on the keyboard or when the bass guitar digs really deep. I did put a cut frequency on the sub woofer at 42 Hz (the lowest frequency a bas guitar can produce). I got that from the literature in the Welcome pages you guys provided. No lavaliere mics. There are just the 2 UHF ew835 and 6 wired e835s from Sennheiser. As you can see the wireless and wired mics use the same pick-up. I have gold serried Magomi mic cables on everything. The system sounds really good but sometimes without doing anything we get the feedback. The sound is a very low sound, around a low G or F on keyboard if you know music. It is consistently the same tone each time the feedback comes through. If I lower the monitors it typically does go away. I’m not sure about the pre-fader/post-fader aux send setting. I learn something new each day. I will see the system tomorrow evening and will check. I also wonder if there is a basic EQ on that Aux Send. Maybe I need to take some lows out of the monitors. Just a thought. I’ll get back to you on that one. I do know that I have the monitors on a fader of its own. Are you saying that any increase to the mains will increase the monitors in the case of a POST fader setup?
DRA,
What I meant was the DRPA has cut certain freqs from mains and sub. However the monitors are full range as they are coming straight from the board. My thought was maybe the system still senses those cut frequencies from the monitors via the mics and is attempting t cut the same freq from a the mains and sub assuming that it did not actually get cut them. Confusing but I hope you understand. I may be totally wrong but that is what I was saying. As far as processing between the Aux Send and the monitor amp, there is nothing in between them. Should I DI box that line signal? I figure it is a line signal being that I am using a TRS cable. The Cable is actually a TRS- XLR 3 foot cable. That may be foolish too but I thought I’d ask. Don’t quote me on the TS vs. TRS cable. I’m learning guys.
Is your current set-up ....
mixer outs to DRPA to mains & aux outs to monitor amps?
If so you are fighting a losing battle. You have to have an EQ (31-band preferred) for the monitors.
DRA
It also sounds like your running the monitors off one of an AUX fader. The only way that can work is to use an aux PRE FADER send as an individual send and an aux master...as an overall mix master...(which is pretty useless actually).
Your way of setting up each channel is problematic at best..You should be using the channel fader @ the unity point ... then use the input gain control (with the PFL depressed) to set the input level of each channel using the master meters to determine the actual input level.... Once that is set (input gain knob... the top one on each channel) LEAVE THEM ALONE. If you change the position of those after you set the monitor levels it will CAUSE FEEDBACK!!!! THEN use the channel fader for final adjustment of that channel in the mains only!
E 635's have a harsh 3.5 khz area (vocal boost) that could also be causing your problem since its NOT FLAT...
Try those things...
Gadget
All seems very confusing
It seem as though you are getting feedback through the foldback speakers and hoping that the DRPA (which is connected to the FOH speakers) is going to stop the feedback
Is this right?? (If so it will never fix the feed back issues. If will find them and pull them down but not in foldback where they start)
I'm thinking first things first,
1. put 1/3 octave eq over foldback. (Dra’s suggestion)
2. Turn down foldback one week (way down low) and see if you still get problem
3. Don’t put lapel mic through foldbacks
Mark
I have been looking at photos of your mixer
This is the right way to set up your desk for Aux sends to foldback monitors.
(I like the GP/Aux swap button but you can get trapped by it)
Firstly at G suggests
Pre /post fader button on each channel must be in the \"pre fader\" mode.
Ensure that all pre/post buttons on each channel is in the up position. (just below the Aux 2 fader and the Aux 4 fader) on all channels
(Google pre / post to see the difference (Very important)
Now the GP/Aux swap button on the AUX ? GP ? masters. Push one of them down (turns the group into a Aux master)
Now you have control of your foldback monitors / aux sends in \"Pre fader mode\" and on a slider.
Nice set up
I suspect that you have got some or all pre/post buttons in the post position!!
Am I right????
Mark
G
(G Check your PM)
Mark
PS. Good to be back
Depress the 75 hertz roll off filter on each channel that doesn't produce low frequencies eg vocal mics violins etc
The switch is just below the gain knob and has \"75\" next to it
Will help but there is still more to do
Mark
PS Do you have a kick drum mic???
Sorry for the delay. a Few facts I think I should mention concerning my setup.
1. I have the the monitors feed coming straight from mixer to amp to foldbacks.
2. I havethe ability through the aux sends to control what channels are present on that feed. All I currently have on that feed is just vocals. no instrumentation no, CD/IPOD.
3. I honestly can't find the feedback and my last thought was for it to be coming from the one element that the AFS can't control which are the foldbacks.
So yes I think the feedback is coming from the monitors (foldbacks) but they are not going through the DRPA. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Dra's suggestion and the 1/3 octave EQ, and I have tried putting the monitors way down but then the vocalist are not abel to hear themselves. The wireless mics were in the monitors but I I removed the mas a test for feedback and they have been removed from the monitors eversense.
Oh and as far as the pre/post faders, I will have to look and check the buttons and make sure they are all pre/fader. I have never even look prior to your recomendation. So Thanks for that detail. Also I have the 75hz filter on each mic already even the wireless mics. I have a full set of drum mics but they are not connected as I wanted to solve the feedback problem first. Lastly I do have the coresponding Aux Send GP/Aux swap button pressed so that I have a master slider for the monitors. I'll get back to you on the Pre/post setup and wether that fixed anything.
Gadget,
Is it counter-productive to AutoEQ trhe speakers in a postion other than where they are to be mounted. I ask because you mentioned that I should have EQ'd with the mic 2 feet away fro mthe speakers. So I'd have to tke them down and place them side byside in the center of the rom and put the mic in front of them.
All for now guys... Thanks again
Never is long time.
You'll never be able to get any volume from the monitors without feedback, if you don't put a 31-band EQ or a feedback killer such as peavey's ferret or dbx's AFS244, etc. It just isn't going to happen. If you are a novice at all this, I'd recommend a peavey EQ with the feedback indicators over the slider that is feeding back. I think some other brands have that feature as well now.
DRA
PS - is there a soft back drop behind the performers or is it solid reflective walls.
Get the system up and running...with all the mics on, run each individual fader up (with the monitors off) and see how far up you can run each fader till they feed back. This should give you a pretty good idea what the main system can do before feedback...This could be done with and without the FBX unit on...this will also help determine problematic mics...
After that get the main system back to normal and add the monitors and repeat the process.... Note: Here is a good way to see if a mic is goin g to feedback...cup your hand into a bowl like shape and go to each mic and get closer and closer to the mic till you are ultimately touching the mic... run the cup all around the mic to see if there is a problem...It will tell you if you are \"reflection\" feedback prone...
As for the monitors... What Dra is saying is add an EQ if the monitors have to be flippin loud.. otherwise, use the \"ring out the system\" method as above to determine the level the monitors can go to without feedback...and THAT IS ALL YOU GET!!!!
Gadget
Mark
DRA
How is it all going?
Solved any problems yet.?
Mark
Fanman20,
All of the pre/post fader buttons were set correctly. As were the 75hz filters on all vocal mics. Thanks for that suggestion however. I did reseearch this subject area and it is alot clearer to me now.
Gadget,
You remind me of my dad who get's irritated by his little kids foolish antics. LOL (not sure how old you are but that means I'm laughing). Anyway I did get the system ringged out. I did get a temproray 31 band EQ from another church and put it between the mixer and the amp all sliders at 0. It was just me in the building doing the ring out so I took one of the bags that the mics come with and put it on the first mic head. at the EQ and starting from left to right I moved the sliders up till I got a ring. most sliders did not ring but the 6K slider was horrible aling with the 1k slider. A few others rang a little bit but basically how every much I had to go up to get a ring is how much below 0 I took the trouble slider. I hope that was correct. I didn't want to take it all the way down because it was my thinking that the system would loose musicality if I took the sliders all the way down. All in all I think that sloved the problem with the foldbacks.
DRA,
Sorry I didn't understand your plain english suggestion for getting an EQ on my foldbacks. I'm a little slow sometimes. I did borrow an EQ from another church and rang out the system like gadget suggested. I am definitly going to get another EQ with the indicators on each channel. I know I will have to ring out all over again but now I think I know what to do. Also I think I will go and re-run the AFS setup with the monitor rangged out so that the DRPA can only try to cut the frequencies truley coming out of the mains. It may be unnecessary but I just want to be sure. The system sounds good other than that.
I'm the \"Old sound man\" Older than dirt
I also recommended you get the mic closer to the speakers when you do an auto EQ for a reason.. the farther away the more reflected cancellations will affect the \"musicality\" as you put it, of the system. I would take a step ladder, a long board with a mic stand taped to it and held by someone... whatever is necessary to get a baseline flat response.
The thing about monitors is, if you don't have an outboard EQ to ring out the monitors you only have them up to a level that they will not feed back...the singers or muso's just have to deal with it lacking a more expensive solution (like the EQ)
Sorry if I vented on you but of late we have had an unusual number of beginners trying to do things that it takes years of experience and or training to solve. We are all volunteers here and have only a finite amount of time to devote to this site, and so when we suggest things that we see as important and they don't seem to be getting addressed ... well you can see that that wouldn't be good.
Anyway, best of luck..
gadget
Well done in getting this far and solving the feed back problem.
Another way of making the foldbacks sound better is to temporarily put the DRPA on the foldback send.
The order is:-
Mixer, EQ , DRPA amp, foldback speakers.
Set the eq flat.
Now “Auto eq� the DRPA. (place RTA mic close to the foldback speaker)
Transfer the DRPA GEQ settings the EQ
Remove the DRPA and put it back on the FOH system
What that will do is \"Flatten\" the foldback speakers.
You will still need to \"chase\" feedback freq’s but the foldback speakers should sound better
Mark