bas problem
Newbi
Posts: 28
Hello!
I have a problem and gonna try to explane it!
I am leadsinger in a small rockband and have built a new portable pa for us containing:
4 top speakers with 1 beyma 10MI100 mid, 1 beyma CP70Ti high with TD360 horn in each.
Cabs ca 20 liters for the mid and 2 ports 65mm x 20mm.
the cab is constructed frequency 120hz.
I connect them in pairs on each side to get 4 ohm
I power them with:
1 rmx 1450 in stereo to the 4 CP750 highs.
1 rmx 2450 in stereo to the 4 10MI100 mids.
4 low cabs with 1 beyma 18P1200nd in each.
Cabs ca 130 liters and 2 ports 75mm x 140mm.
the cab is constructed frequency 50hz.
I connect them in pairs to get 4 ohm.
I power each side with 1 rmx 4050hd bridged.
1 soundcraft mpm20 mixer.
1 Driverack 260 with software and laptop.
All devices are brand new and cables are new and tested 10 times and also speakercables the same.
Last night we set the things up and connected a cd player to try it out for the first time and powered up the system, dident do an gainstructure just wanted to listen thrue the system a quicky after 6 months saving money and constructing.
I did the wizard and put the crossover: low 50-120, mid 120-4500, high 4500-out.
It sounded all strange so i start to do some small changes in the crossover and soon the tops played nice and tight, BUT the low... it sounded awful and no power at all, i tryed all possible and not possible settings in the 260 but i dident manage to get a good sound, it sounded like i was outside on the street hearing music from the basement... :shock:
Im not a soundguy just a singer who wanted a new good sound for my band what did i do wrong??
If someone have a idea plz tell me i whould realy be happy for an advice or two!
And also excuse me for my bad english!
I have a problem and gonna try to explane it!
I am leadsinger in a small rockband and have built a new portable pa for us containing:
4 top speakers with 1 beyma 10MI100 mid, 1 beyma CP70Ti high with TD360 horn in each.
Cabs ca 20 liters for the mid and 2 ports 65mm x 20mm.
the cab is constructed frequency 120hz.
I connect them in pairs on each side to get 4 ohm
I power them with:
1 rmx 1450 in stereo to the 4 CP750 highs.
1 rmx 2450 in stereo to the 4 10MI100 mids.
4 low cabs with 1 beyma 18P1200nd in each.
Cabs ca 130 liters and 2 ports 75mm x 140mm.
the cab is constructed frequency 50hz.
I connect them in pairs to get 4 ohm.
I power each side with 1 rmx 4050hd bridged.
1 soundcraft mpm20 mixer.
1 Driverack 260 with software and laptop.
All devices are brand new and cables are new and tested 10 times and also speakercables the same.
Last night we set the things up and connected a cd player to try it out for the first time and powered up the system, dident do an gainstructure just wanted to listen thrue the system a quicky after 6 months saving money and constructing.
I did the wizard and put the crossover: low 50-120, mid 120-4500, high 4500-out.
It sounded all strange so i start to do some small changes in the crossover and soon the tops played nice and tight, BUT the low... it sounded awful and no power at all, i tryed all possible and not possible settings in the 260 but i dident manage to get a good sound, it sounded like i was outside on the street hearing music from the basement... :shock:
Im not a soundguy just a singer who wanted a new good sound for my band what did i do wrong??
If someone have a idea plz tell me i whould realy be happy for an advice or two!
And also excuse me for my bad english!
0
Comments
Can you give me the full setup here? I assume your using a 2 X 6 crossover? What slopes are you using? G=Have you compensated for the efficiency differences in the speakers? The subs efficiency is the least, and you have the power to drive the cabs but what is the gain for the given xover components.. Like Horn -10db mid 0db and Sub +3 db...
What are the output meters on the 260 doing... especially on the subs channels? Where did you set the gain controls on the 4050's...
There's too many variables here...Also what do you hear when you mute all outputs but the subs...what do the subs sound like them? Are the subs horn loaded or bass reflex cabs... did you use established professional cab designs? Have to read the Welcome read me first before posting sections?
Gadget
Sry for missing sume tihings in my mail and a BIG tnx for replying..
Yes 2x6 crossover and the slopes (and all other settings)@ beginning were as it came after the wizard(did the wizard atleast 5 times to check i dident mess suming up there), i also did some compensating (manually to here the diff.)but the low wasent even close to the rest, when i gained up the 4050s or compensated (know its a big diff. highs sensetivy 110 db, mid 101db, low 98db)mid and high down the lows still sounded verry bad, i tryed diffrent slopes at the lows and mostly it sounded the same.
As you say it i muted all but subs almost at start to hear them and the sound was kind of flappy, undistinct no punch @ all, like all sounds was melted together.
The cabs bass reflex and is built by myself in 22mm mdf board and skrewed and glued
with polyretanglue, and front (were speaker is) is stiffed up with 50mmx22mm ribs on inside around the hole and also out to the sides and top and bottom.
I gave specsheet on the 18p1200nd to a guy who is good at this and
he gave me the values to build after.
the output meters were not moving much on the 260 (maby 2 leds) but i dident went further on it since mid and top were about the same level as the lows and sounded good and loud
Have bin reading constantly on this forum to studdy this things before i bought the 260 and became a member here, i dident know anything when i started building this system and are moving slowly forward but so much to learn...
Im gonna set it all up again this weekend and doublecheck all connections and write down exactly what the settings is in the 260.
//Newbi
What happens when you hook the outputs of the mixer directly into the subs. Yes you'll have too much hi info in them but you should be able to verify if the design of the subs is the problem....I suspect it may be... Do you have the design parameters of the box and ts parameters of the speakers used in the box?
Alternatively, do you have a known good sub to drive to see if its the boxes? Have you tried increasing the sub xover gain control so that the sub amps are driven harder? the Sub outputs may need to be substantially higher than the others. Are the gain controls on the 4050 cranked? You didn't say..
Gadget
Gain on the amps were at the last test before i went home about 3/4
and yes i increased gain in crossover but the more gain the more bad sound. One thing thoe, the less frequency the low had to play the better it sounded 50-120 disaster, ca 70-100 terrible
speakers ts
Resonant Frequency (fs) 37 Hz
Impedance (Re) 5.3 ohms
Coil Inductance (Le) 2.3 mH
Mechanical Q (Qms) 10.39
Electrical Factor (Qes) .35
Total Q (Qts) .34
Comp. Equivelant Vol. (Vas) 6.99 ft3 / 198 Liters
Voice Coil Overhang (Xmax) 9.5 mm
Surface Area of Cone (Sd)m2 0.1225m2
Reference Efficiency 2.7%
Displacement Volume (Vd) 1164 cm3
All boxguy said to me was build a box 130 liter bass reflex, in a V-shape
put in 2 pipes 75 mm in diameter and make them 140 mm long and as the gentle man i am i did!
I hope i can test it this friday again and will save the .dwp file and mail it to you on saturday
I will also hook up the subs from mixer and check what hapends.
Is there anything more in the settings that you know messes things up
that i can check when i try this friday?
Tnx once again
//Newbi
Now i tryed again..
Have sent you the .dwp file on mail!
this was the closest to good sound i could get but (still not satisfying) after 4 hours listening and trying my head was all skrewed up
I tryed diffrent pipe lenghts in 1 cab to try and with shorter pipes it sounded better and tighter.
Connected the sub from mixer and it was pretty much the same, slow reactions but not as melted together as before.
//Newbi
Gadget
Thank you verry much for your time and replies.
1 last question, is there a good software to calculate boxes ?
After all i have the ingridients so a bit hard work and some wood and paint
and im back on track again... maby
// Newbi
There's Bass box pro
check here:
http://www.speakerplans.com/
I have no more time I'll see if I can find more later
g
I stiffed up the box a lil bit more and experimented with the lenghts of the ports and came to a pretty good sound atlast... ports were 200mm to short.
A big disapointment thoe on the tops i changed from beyma td400n horns to beyma td360 coz lack of space in the cabs but jezus they sound a lot colder and harder with this horns also i think they need pretty much space between the rig and peeps on a gig to get a good spread...bad choice...
But the driverack....what a thing! im amazed
How are you tuning the speakers anyway, that is half the battle here, and actually more difficult than building them. What xover points, delays and PEQ's are you using. Did you do any Auto Eq work? That coupled with some PEQ can go a long way toward taming those unruly speakers...
Gadget
I havent gone deeper than played around with all the features the driverack have, only the x-over have bin my friend latly to sort out the basspeakers...
low: 40-118 mid: 118-4000 high: 4000-out. gain l:+3 m:0 h:-8,5
bass is still a lil bit bulpy at high volumes but im starting to think the room im trying in are to small and its just concreet and metall in there..im gonna stack it outside soon and see what hapends(beside getting beat up by neighbours)
gain on the x-over is dificult, sounds good from listening from 1 place then u move to another spot and dang to much
But i can allready see and notice the weak things from my choise of speakers.. with a second thought i maby should have gone for the bigger 12 inch mid instead, to have the mids play a bit lower, from 90 or sumthing or am i lost there?
after a couple of days playing around i feel the mid is a bit weak
im thinking of doin new boxes, sell the 10 inches and go for the 12inches instead
well... im gonna explore the 260 more and see what i can do with it for my system before i change more on the speakers. The week and the nights are long... Lucky to have an understanding girlfriend:)
Newbi
The pass would need to be done at close range, 4-6 feet, probably aimed at about the midrange, one stack only, Or the \"new indoor method\" as described in the \"read me first section\".
You know what... I just looked up that HF driver and its a 2\" exit nearly 3\" voice coil driver! Dude your crossing that at 4500 hz! NO NO NO...thats all wrong, that thing should be crossed at about 1200 hz, even as low as 1000 hz. No wonder the tops don't sound good...
So let me get this strait...you have only one 10\" and that big horn per top? Oh my... I should have read your thread more closely... Dude there should have been like 2 10 \" minimum... and yes, probably 12\" would have been better. I have some tops that have 2\" EV horns and 4, 300 watt 10\" drivers. Who talked you into that? Those 10\" are going to have a hell-of-a time keeping up with those horns. Man you have a poor design here... somehow I thought you had a bigger lo mid speaker...
I think you got sold on a bad design all the way around...I guess you could still use those tops but you'd need to add a 12\" or maybe better yet a 15\" lo mid cab to that rig...you'll have high end till hell won't have it and poor Quality midrange. Man thats too bad. I guess you could try crossing the tops at 160-180 hz and try that but I'd be surprised if the one 10\" could keep up. At any rate you'll need to get that mid kickin ass and then turn the horn and sub down to match what it can put out... :roll: I don't know... keep me informed...
gadget
The guy who helped me is an old friend who has buildt a cpl of speakers..
Yes i had atleast the brain to buy the dbx rta mic when bought the 260:), i will do it in the middle of week..
Should have asked here before i went shoping all those drivers but all the peeps i spoke to said i need a lot of highs when doin live shows..
Get a little frustrated here.. 4 10\" mids and 1 2\" high in your tops, im totaly f-d, i could have get 4 more 10\" mids or 12\" for the price of that 2 hf drivers and 4 new horns....
Maby its better to start over? What is my needs? What am i gonna do with it? What is required? What had you used?
1: i need a good sounding system for rock'n roll music live on gigs
2: The places is mostly indoor ca 20x60 meters and want to be able to do smaller outdoor gigs (weddings etc)
3: band containes:Drums, guitar, bass, keybords, vocals.
oki the guy told me to cross the hf at that point, i will try it your way next time im there..
Tnx again and i realy appreciate this otherweise ill be lost in space...
Newbi
Gadget
And how big amp do you recomend for them? another 4050 or can i go less power? 1 driver each side = 8ohms and less power from amp? or chose a speaker with 4 ohms?
This is gonna be a huge rig to drive around with soon...
i can afford a bit more but i allready put out a awfull amount on money
on this from my own pocket and starting to see my limits but im not the guy who quits in the first place. i have unlimited with construction materials coz of my work so wood and stuff is no problem to get..
ceiling tiles = you mean a kind off mineral fiber, a hard packed insulating material ?
and 1 questeion how big shows can this rig do you think with the sytem completed with the 15\"?
Tnx again
Newbi
http://www.fane-acoustics.com/pdfs/refl ... ure_12.pdf
but with the 1.4\" Paudio SD 740 N , or the SD 750 N 2\" horn
Here is what I would suggest for the lo mids, the beauty of these is that they are small and REALLY kick ass... and make good subs as well, so they would be multi purpose...
http://www.fane-acoustics.com/pdfs/Cabi ... ch125L.pdf
A 4050 would be a good amp for this purpose, or I'd probably be bgoing with the Crown XTI 4000, a MUCH MUCH smaller and lighter (and over here a way less expensive amp)
As for the batting, yes, that or carpet underlayment...or whatever...
Gadget
That looked like r'n r boxes to me :twisted:
I take my circklesaw out the locker and start with the boxes in the morning..
I order drivers tomorrow and need to read about the amp and sleep on what to choose.. btw i take the B or the XB 15?
100 times over, thank you Gadget
Newbi
I built 4 of those and they put out huge bass for the size, I'd get the \"XB\" drivers. They go a little lower...only has a response to 1000 hz, but we don't really need anything over about 250 hz. That is where I'd like to see you cross that 10\". and then try about 1050 hz for the horn/driver combo, that should give you a really nice midrange and high's that will punch through big time. Then I'd like to see you run those MB cabs down to 60 hz, and let those others go down to 40 so they're only doing 40-60 hz.
Actually my feeling here is that your current cabs will end up as the Lo mid's and those little puppies will end up being your subs...4 of those puppies will do a good job outdoors when clustered as one unit. 8 will do a pretty big outdoor gig...AND you can pick them up and carry them at the end of the day! And that my friend is what \"little but deadly\" is all about!
I also built the LABsubs, a folded horn sub that is beyond belief! With 6 outdoors, they could be FELT 1/2 of a mile away! thats a hell of a wallop to do that at that range! Crazy thing was it was all done with one 1 rack space amp... that weighed in a 17 lbs...It was the Powersoft \"Digam 5000\" running a crazy stereo load of about 1.17 ohms, did it all day, and never skipped a beat. Them with a 6 hang of the 12\" X 2\" did an outdoor concert for 2000 people, and was amazing...
Those are pretty easy to build, I added a small block at the back of the 4 ports for support. BTW I use polly propylene (gorilla) glue. make sure to use some water as the catalyst...
Gadget
I built 4 of those and they put out huge bass for the size, I'd get the \"XB\" drivers. They go a little lower...only has a response to 1000 hz, but we don't really need anything over about 250 hz. That is where I'd like to see you cross that 10\". and then try about 1050 hz for the horn/driver combo, that should give you a really nice midrange and high's that will punch through big time. Then I'd like to see you run those MB cabs down to 60 hz, and let those others go down to 40 so they're only doing 40-60 hz.
Actually my feeling here is that your current cabs will end up as the Lo mid's and those little puppies will end up being your subs...4 of those puppies will do a good job outdoors when clustered as one unit. 8 will do a pretty big outdoor gig...AND you can pick them up and carry them at the end of the day! And that my friend is what \"little but deadly\" is all about!
I also built the LABsubs, a folded horn sub that is beyond belief! With 6 outdoors, they could be FELT 1/2 of a mile away! thats a hell of a wallop to do that at that range! Crazy thing was it was all done with one 1 rack space amp... that weighed in a 17 lbs...It was the Powersoft \"Digam 5000\" running a crazy stereo load of about 1.17 ohms, did it all day, and never skipped a beat. Them with a 6 hang of the 12\" X 2\" did an outdoor concert for 2000 people, and was amazing...
Those are pretty easy to build, I added a small block at the back of the 4 ports for support. BTW I use polypropylene (gorilla) glue. make sure to use some water as the catalyst...
Gadget
Those drivers.... no drivers to buy anywere :? found a store in denmark that might could get a pair to me, im wating for them to let me know..
Also a site in uk has 5 in stock but they dont deliver outside uk, im gonna call them tomorrow and force them to if denmark cant deliver :shock:
I heard something hapend in the fanefactory so they cant deliver at all and dono when they can
How much stuff u have anyways? sounds like a lot to me 8)
Also bin looking around for some good plywood, im done with the mdf, its to heavy when the cabs are ready and dusty to work with, found a guy building cabs who can sell to me(the standard plywood sux here like 2 layers and no finish at all)
Had bin fun to hear that outdoorshow u mentioned, i think its the coolest thing ever to hear and experience great sound!
I tryed the crossingpoints you said on the tops today and it ended up pretty nice, thank you once again
Time to sleep!
Newbi
P audio p150 2226
18 sound 15LW1401
Eminence Magnum 15LFE
Eminence Omega pro 15
There are probably more but those are the ones I am a dealer for...
Gadget
2 X Colossus xb and 1 crown XTI 4000 is orderd, prolly have them in middle of next week..
I get the plywood tomorrow so maby they are up running in end of next week
// Newbi
enjoy!...you'll like those little puppies...remember polypropylene glue! I used sheetrock screws and tuffcoat paint and one of those raised nap rollers.
Gadget
in metall and have 15 machines there and after my cabsessions the whole area is coverd with dust and they whiine as hell.....
Good luck with those subs! I guess they arent a piece of cake to build.
I have the glue your talking about and always use it, its the best!
I have a guy who helped me put on some structurepaint on my other cabs
and it looks pretty good i will take a pic of them when rig is done..
Tnx
//Newbi
I finished the cabs today... Just to sit calm and wait for the drivers and amp to arive...
I absolute sux at waiting
Now 1 question.. bin thinking how to set it all up with the amps and driverack... was ur idea to have the xti 4000 living its on life and use its on dsp?? or i do on a other way?
1 thinking i have, no hearable stereo under 300hz? and as u said the 15 s gonna play 80-250hz can i connect them in pair to get 4ohms and bridge the xti 4000 to get more power? If i have 1 on each side and i go in in 1 and from there to the other side can it couse any delay from the other side? :roll:
Have i lost track here?
Tnx
//Newbi
I suppose you have to wait the rest of the week? Where did you find the XB's?
Gadget
I found the XB s on bluearan.com.uk, only place i found them on, i asked around in all sweden but same answer no no no no no no no, damn i hate the worlds no and cant!
but it was pretty good for me to found that site coz i saved a hell of a lot money on the xbs and xti 4000 under half the price on them compared if i bought them here! ( but a little longer delivery time TNX paypal!!! Who frose my account 1,5 day)
Im thinking of order 2 more to have in spare and maby build 2 more of those r'n r cabs when im bored!(cant belive its so much fun building these freakin cabs!)
Im also a bit curius of that subhorns u spoke about, maby thats summing for me to build with my beyma 18\" or some other horn or maby the driver isent meant for horn?(dont think i will get the cabs i have to sound 100% so then maby better to build summing new) is there any drawings on the horns i can check to see if i manage to build them? or what do u suggest?
maby some cool solution with 2 drivers in 1 cab :twisted:
Btw all my system i did as u say it \"daisy chain\" but thought only thing was to not have to long wires between, i asume i have to fix the cables
correct to not blow anything...
Tnx as usual!!
//Newbi
Stuff came yesterday.... had no time but mounted 1 driver in the cab to listen...
First of all, that was one mean m-f speaker... omfg almost dangerous lol
it sounded a lot better then the 18\" i have, i think now i need to find a other box for the 18\"s
Now i have a clue what its all about and how a good box really sound...
my work interfear my speakerplans atm but i hope i can finish the rig
soon... so many things to do but so little time...
Tnx for the help with the cabs really nice!
//Newbi
http://www.fane-acoustics.com/pdfs/Cabi ... ch200L.pdf
is the 18\" version of that cab, and the design would work well with that driver of yours with little or no modification...As I said, a good cabinet design is very forgiving. Glad you like those... as for the Labsub, they are UNBELIEVABLE, but difficult to build. here is the link:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/lsp/
Gadget
Also a good pic when recomending the xti, hihihi thought i was packing up a cd player at first so light compared to the other amps but it was great power in it!
Im lifting my hat for you!
Also great with the software to manage it!
Had 1 hour today and set up the stuff as it should be and it turned pretty good, tops and fane cabs sound good together but the subs sound not so nice compared with the other..
When i use the fane cab as sub from 35 it plays deep and nice but are also gun fast response in punch, the 18 in same position is a lot weaker
so im goin for new cabs...
But if u had my drivers and chose urself u had gone for the labs?
I dont think i manage to build them by myself but i know a guy who build all possible things in wood and he can help me..
Is there any win/lose situation in lab/fanecab or is the lab a pwnage thing?
is there big modifications for diffrent drivers in the lab?
Tnx for the help, i own you a BOX of beer soon!
//Newbi