Crown XLS 802 and JBL JRX125 Setup with Delay

JerryW

I need to set up the DriveRack PA with two sets of JRX 125s spaced approx. 60 feet apart. I would like to use the DriveRack to feed full frequency to both sets of 125s in stereo with delay, feedback, and EQ.

First, is this possible?

Second, what settings do I use? Connect an amp to the high sending full frequency and another amp to the mids sending full frequency with delay?

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Jerry

Gadget

Well... YES depending on just how much delay you think you need? Just what IS the delay needed here? remember now that the the delay MAX available delay on each channel is about 10 feet...pretty useless actually, except for alignment within speakers...What say you?

The speakers need a bandpass filter that hipass's the LF signal, and thats about it...


G

Dra

Sounds like you are bi-amping the 125's. If that is true, then the available delay is plenty. DO NOT send \"full frequency\" to the horns! (or the mids for that matter).

Can you give a few more details of what you're doing here?

DRA

JerryW

We have a musical theater production that is taking place inside a gymnasium. Imagine a full-size basketball court with a stage at one end of it. So, a long, narrow room. Rather than crank up the sound at the front of house, I thought having two sound sources (one at front, another half way back) would decrease the amount of reverberation we would experience and would also allow those in back to hear well while those in front are not blown away with the sound. You can see the layout here:

http://www.vbcad.com/stage.pdf

Based on the spacing of the front speakers and the mid-audience speakers, I thought a delay for timing purposes would be good. I don't want to spend the money on subs so the JRX 125s seemed to be a good choice due to the low-pass filter on the bottom 15\". The DriveRack PA would take care of equalization, feedback suppression, and the timing delay.

I also have 4 monitors on stage that will have their own DriveRack for feedback suppression.

I welcome any constructive criticism and/or advice on how to best take care of this sound issue.

FYI, I'm running a Mackie Onyx 24.4 Mixer, 9 Audio-Technica 3000 series headworn theater mics and some U853R overhead mics. Crown XLS 802 Amps for Mains and Monitors. At this point, I have not purchased the JRX125s but plan on doing so in the very near future.

Thanks in advance.

Jerry

Dra

I misread that you have 4 JRX'x.
Do you already have the 2 DRPA's?

DRA

Dra

What was the original (pre-PDF) drawing done with?

DRA

JerryW

I already have the following:

(1) Mackie Onyx 24.4 Mixer
(1) Crown XLS 802 Amp
(1) DriveRack PA

When you asked about if I already had my DRPAs, were you asking because there is a better product to meet my needs? I could use the one I have for the Monitors and get something else if that would be better.

The original drawing was done in AutoCAD.

Thanks.

Jerry

Gadget

Well... you asked for it...
I don't like the JRX 125's,
The DRPA hasn't got near enough delay to do any good on the delay speakers
You should fly something and get the sound on the people..
If you don't need subs, speakers that go 3db down @ 60 hz should be good...
These would be better...
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
like the Veris series 12/64 or 15/64

or even better yet
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
The Renkus & Heinz CFX 121 or CFX 151 will blow those JBLS off the planet, and are in the same price range... @ NSL This is a true professional speaker.

The DR260 would do what you want in the hall but the DRPA cannot..
Gadget

JerryW

I'm in learning mode, so please don't read anything into my question. I have heard very good reviews on the 125s so that's why I was looking at them. I don't need the speakers to go extremely loud and don't need them to thump down low.

Flying the speakers isn't an option, I'm afraid. I'll look at the speakers you suggested though.

Thanks.

Jerry

Dra

Check your PM for my email address and send me the .dwg file (2000 or 14 preferred). I'll make some rec's on set-up.

DRA

Dra

For what ever gear you buy, what is the future use of it? Play production or similar only?

DRA

JerryW

I have been involved in a lot of musical and theater productions where those performing were great but no one in the audience could tell. (3) Dynamic mics are used to pick up children singing 20 feet away, etc. The sound guy would gain the mics to feedback continuously, etc.

I have written a musical that is being performed and determined that I would put together an ideal (or as ideal as I can afford) sound system to do the performers justice.

This is a non-fixed installation - needs to be able to be set up and taken down between performances. After the initial performance, the sound system will be used for other performing groups perfoming the same musical as well as other musicals.

Does this answer your question?

Thanks so much for your prompt replies.

Jerry

Gadget

the problem is those speakers aren't very good for vocals.. a 12\" is MUCH more musical, will sound way warmer and will be far less likely to need radical EQ to sound good. The jbls use cheap stamped 15\" speakers and a quasi three way design( only because of the proximity of the two large drivers) and are really meant to be used as DJ speakers.. and low end live sound speakers...believe me you will LOVE the Renkus and Heinz speakers.. they are smaller, sound amazing, 1/2 the weight...

But again, you have nowhere near enough delay available for delay sends with the DRPA...

G

JerryW

What you say regarding the speaker size makes sense. I'll keep looking at those speakers.

Thanks again for your prompt and professional advice. Feel free to drop in any more advice you may have.

Thanks.

Jerry

Gadget

You never indicated if you have the DRPA's or the amps...what do you physically have now..

If you have the DRPA's you could get Crown Xti's which have delay, and a considerable amount of it...which would solve the delay problem...

Otherwise the speakers could only be about 10 feet apart.

If you REALLY want bang for the buck, it would be about $300 more each.. but these :
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
would blow you away totally...1.5\" inch exit horns, that really bring reality back to the vocals .. and music. THIS is a REAL PRO speaker ...just to let you know...there is an good alternative speaker in the 1 \" exit variety there also. for about $580 in DAS...audio


G

JerryW

I have one DRPA now and by the suggestion of DRA, am looking at the DR260. I would use the DRPA for monitors and the DR260 for house speakers.

What do you think?

Jerry

Dra

Gadget, he has a budget of about $2000. He is sold on the 260, so he has about $1300 left to buy 4 speakers. He has everything else including 1 DRPA. He was going to buy 4) JRX125 and 1) DRPA. Based on what I found in a limited search these would cost closer to $2400. He also needs to be running quickly. Show opens in a month.

Jerry, the set-up that I would have recommended was going to be $3200. (260, 4- cabs and stands) Do you Ebay? There is a pair of Yorkville E600 up http://cgi.ebay.com/YORKVILLE-ELITE-E60 ... dZViewItem
They are dual 10\". I have heard the monitor version of this speaker and wow! Too bad there are only 2. One more thing. With one amp for mains you are forced to run a mono mix. Were you aware of that and is that an issue?

Another cost cutting choice would be The Yorkville NX35. It is a molded plastic cab (30 lbs). I have the powered version of it (NX25P). I paid under $400, but there has been a price increase. Even then the price difference between the powered and un-powered version was only about $40. I'm guessing that you could get 4 of the NX35's for $1200.

I don't envy your decision. Balancing budget and functionality can be a real headache. A cheap speaker is very expensive if it can't do the job.

DRA

JerryW

I will have two Crown amps for the mains so I can still run stereo. Budget is a little flexible. I'm not opposed to Ebay but prefer electronics over speakers on Ebay. What do you think? Used speakers? It seems electronics are less likely to be messed up than something with 'moving parts'.

Let me know what you had in mind for your 'ideal' system so I can take a look.

Thanks.

Jerry

Dra

DR260 (of coarse)
Yorkville Elite E12
The Elite line was their premiere line up until several years ago. When they added the Unity line and the TX (turing) line. The E12's have a really nice smooth sound. There is a processor for tuning the cabs, but I have been able to make the tweeks with the 260 just fine. There are a couple of reasons I recommend this system.
1- I've used the speakers for DJ work, spoken word (conventions), talent shows, so the speakers sound great for music, speech, & singing.
2- Many of my convention set-ups are almost identical to yours. 2 at the stage and 2 farther back.

If building wall shelves or wall suspension bar for the speakers is an option you can save $250 on stands. Stands work best if moving venues or changing set-ups, although stands are a trip hazard.

DRA

JerryW

Dra, Any suggestions on where I will get the best price for these speakers?

Jerry

Dra

Where are you located?

JerryW

How do you feel about using different speakers in a setup? I don't like the idea of having one set in front and a different model in back.

Jerry

Dra

The ideal is matching, but in this application you are dealing with zones, so it is less critical. But if you ever play in a wide room and use all near the stage it does become a problem. If all things are equal stick with matching speakers.

DRA

Ps - PM heading your way.

JerryW

I'm looking at the NX35 now. I could get these and stay in budget. If it were you, would you get a job delivering pizzas for a month to make up the additional cash to get the E12s or would the untrained ear be just as happy with the DriveRack 260 in the mix?

Jerry

Dra

I know what the sound of the E12 is and sound of the NX35 is. I asked a dealer and he confirms that the NX35 will do the job and you'll be happy. The E12 will do the job and you'll be thrilled. The E12 (wood cab) has better resonance and the horn has a special protection circuit for protection whereas the NX35 has a light bulb for protection. You can read about these schemes on the web-site. The E12 has a slightly lower response, more power handling, and uses higher grade drivers.
Maybe you already have the RTA mic and if so the following does not apply
To use the E12, since I have the tuning data, you will not HAVE to have the RTA mic, but can useful for Auto EQing the room (using the 160-700hz data only as discussed ad nosium).
The use the NX35's you MUST buy the RTA mic (add $100) to get them as flat as possible (every speaker has dips and hump with in the +/- 3db tolerance).

The NX35 are 18 lbs less and cheaper.

DRA

PS - PM still coming

JerryW

I do already have the DriveRack RTA Mic. I'll make sure I EQ each cab with the DR260.

I saw the 'light bulb' on the schematic. On the surface it seems a little odd but I'm guessing they wouldn't use it if it didn't work. Right?

So, why are we discussing Yorkville speakers instead of JBL or other speakers I see a lot of? Is it that they are designed more for my application? You mentioned that the JRX125s are made for DJing, etc., not live sound.

Thanks again for all of the input.

Jerry

Dra

Well Gadget said that about the JRX's. I've never heard a good thing about them on PSW. Most will tell you that they are not JBL's best work. They are entry level budget speakers.

The light bulb has been around for a while. Some say that it affects the sound a little, probably not noticable to you and me. But if it blows you have to replace it by digging into the cabinet.

Yorkville is a relatively newer company (1960's I think) and from Canada, so they have slowly made their way into the states. They are known as some of the best bang for the buck speakers and amps around. JBL has many fans and detractors for some stunts they've pulled of the years.

I push Yorkville because they meet my needs and I have not been disappointed. I've own home made cabs, Peavey Impulse and SP series cabs, EV cabs. The Elites out perform them all. When I first looked at making my move to newer gear I considered the JBL M-pro line which was in the same price range as the Elite. I went with the Elite and good thing. The M-pros were out of production and off the market pretty quick. They may have been a good speaker, but but certainly weren't backed very well. Gadget has found the wrong horn drivers in cabs on matching pairs. Specs that are outright lies. Etc. Gadget has used every speaker on the planet and if he says something should be avoided... listen.

DRA

Gadget

The thing is, JBL is riding on it's reputation... it's PAST reputation. They are totally unresponsive to complaint's, concerns and admitting to any wrongdoing. They come out with the worst product ever in a supposedly \"pro\" speaker.. the TRX line which didn't make it a year, and was discontinued.. and miraculously re-appeared as the JRX series (read just re-done TRX's) not much better just different. The big problem I see is if you have a marque line like the SRX.. yes that's correct the SRX line... specifically the SRX 722... the flagship of the Neo series speakers, and you get 2 completely different drivers, and none of them can reproduce 12K much less advertised 3 db down '81-20khz' what a joke!

I too have, and like Yorkville.. they actually sprung from a company that made instrument amps and speakers, Traynor and they have been around for a while...

The thing is there is a group of high profile manufacturers spend a ton on advertising and little on R&D, and those like Yorkville, Community, DAS, Renkus and Heinz.. that put out a superior product and at a price point that doesn't reflect a lot of advertising.. they also, typically, spring out of a high profile line of uber professional speakers that are on par with anything out there.. well, maybe not Danley..but most other brands.

Thanks Dra, but I haven't heard THAT many speakers... maybe 1/2 that Actually with a network of audio professionals the world over we get a pretty good idea of whats hot, and whats not...

Another possibility is the Community line...
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html
@ about $320 they have wood cabs, a 1500 hz xover, ferro fluid dipped tweeters and a horn protection circuit. I have installed a lot of Community speakers...and like them.

As for the \"light bulb\" it acts as a current limiter, and visual indication that your PUSHING the system too much. Prior to converting all my main systems to 2.5\" and 2\" exit horns I too used them...they produce no discernible audio signature till you start over driving the speakers.. then it simply acts like a very linear compressor/fuse that HOPEFULLY blows before the tweeter..

The idea here is to get the best bang for the buck, and I'm not saying the Yamaha 'club series are terrible, or the Peavey PV series, but they are only ~ok~ I guess I'm of the buy once, cry once clan, and yes it can mean the difference between night and day...

Gadget

JerryW

Dra and Gadget,

You have single-handedly (of course, there are two of you so that statement doesn't really work, but it expresses the sentiment) debunked the myth that Forums are useless. As mentioned, I have one shot to make this production everything it can be and your advice has come in very handy. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

If / when you are in Salt Lake City, UT next, let me know - I'll treat you to dinner. If not, let me know how I can get something to you to feed those machines that are cranking out great advice on this Forum.

Jerry

Dra

Have you reached a decision? One thing that you can do while you wait on your 260 (assuming) is download the Driveware GUI and play with it. Also do the tutorial (first actually). They're in the training module section above.

DRA

Gadget

Thanks for the kind words. We try very hard to not only be helpful, but disseminate only accurate information and the best advise we have gleaned over the years.

Never been to Salt Lake city...part of that whole dry..arid..southwest desert area right? Me, I live in the land of 10,000 lakes, and 100,000 bars :roll: Actually their falling like flies on the frozen tundra...Were down to 2 bars in the entire area that have live entertainment ..one rock, and one country...thankfully I have one of the two, or I'd be jones'n bad.

Keep us informed how things are progressing
G