New top boxes to match our subs

fouronthefloor

Well Gadget. We're building two more subs and we're having trouble getting our two yamaha SM15s to play well with them at the moment. They're obviously designed for wedge duty and just don't sound quite right. As an A/B comparison we plugged in an Aussie Monitor top box with 2 x 12\" drivers and a horn. Not surprisingly it was night and day. So, the question is, which top boxes to build to match up with our subs? We're really looking for a rich, bottom end and well balanced mids and tops.

Just a quick recap of what we have currently...

Yamaha MG16/6 mixer
Driverack PA
two yamaha SM15 (biamped) powered by 2x QSC PLX 3002 amp
two custom subs powered by 1 x aussie monitor amp, bridge mono @1500W per box
We also have one spare aussie monitor amp.

We're looking at the Fane top boxes and need direction on the 10\", 12\" or 15\" versions. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Robbo

Gadget

Ya well.. I have a design for an arrayable 12\" X 1.4\" P audio box that uses the SN12B and the SD 740 and (depending on whether you want to use 2 or 4 tops) 60X40 (array) or 90 X 40 (use in singles). These are bi-amp only though...yes we could find a crossover... but bi-amp sounds SOOOO much better and with the DR it's like night and day... A 10\" model would require 2x10\" and a much higher xover point...

I really like a 12\" for vocals...Much more musical. In fact I used these last night with one of the subs and it was awesome. Unfortunately... the 1.4\" Paunio drivers are only available on the BM12 CX38 which is a coaxial speaker.. we can get the 2\" version.. but the 1.4\" uses the same diaphragm and motor structure..and they remove the phase plug from the driver so it's much smoother and the frequency response goes much higher...

Those same components would work pretty well with the Fane box as well..though Mine is smaller and lighter...

I'll attach some pics in a while here from the New years jam...

Happy new years everybody!
Gadget



well, there they are...

and here's the aftermath...Oh.. ya this is jam central...my studio in the garage complex...That's one of them in the corner on the right.. they weigh about 35 lbs...

fouronthefloor

Brilliant. We're travelling 4hours for a gig today, so I'll chat to Bern and decide where we're heading. Would it be possible to get a copy of the design for the 12\" boxes of which you speak? I have the ones for the Fane boxes. As always, thanks G.

Robbo

Gadget

Ya.. sure...I can't remember where the plans are but if I can't find them I can easily re-do them...You need to know that these are designed for arraying with a 40X60 horn...so that they array seamlessly with that horn.. but in singles the 90X 40 horn would be preferable for larger splays...

G

fouronthefloor

Superb. Thanks G. We'd build then to run one a side and put the 90x40 in it. Thanks again.

Dra

Gadget, how do you like the expanded metal. Do you trust the large openings in drunken crowds. I guess the best thing is that if someone tries to reach in with their finger, it'll slice them right up. Does it resist vibration noise well?

DRA

Gadget

Well...It was kind of a ... well I have the metal...I could well have glued fabric to the back .. or front to ensure impregnability..I LIKE the way it looked.. and I like to fly them whenever possible...so I just did that since I was going to put them upstairs in the studio anyway.. since I have the 4 OAP's and no money to really build any more.. and no real reason right now since my weekly gig went bye bye...But rumors are that there are those that know what I'm capable of that are scheming to open a new bar somewhere in Grand Rapids... but for the time being at least I am a man without a country... so to speak (in meta fore form).

BTW it would be almost impossible to get your finger into that mesh and if it were small enough.. it wouldn't be long enough to even come close to the cone. Without significant bending the expanded metal will 'ring' a bit.. so it's important to anchor it well and/or use rubber behind it...or perhaps fabric to damp it. Anyway.. it looked really cool, and I was in a hurry to finish it...so.. that's where it ended up. Here's a picture of them in raw \"test\" stage.. with the 121...db monitor...I was actually trying out passive crossovers...but the DSP was so spectacular it was difficult to even stomach them with the 6 db passives...These blow the commercial OAP T122's off the planet.. and those were my favorite top before that...


Here is the T122's over the 18\" Turbo manifolds...


Can't wait to pull all that stuff out of there this week

G :?

Dra

I checked at McMaster Carr and the expanded metal is less than 1/2 the price of perforated steel. They are probably more than other places, but the ratio should be about the same. Pics look like the flattened style EM, yes?
Good luck at finding a new home (or starting one yourself).

DRA

Gadget

I think the metal was under $10...when purchased...Perforated steel would be have been close to $50...
Thanks
G

fouronthefloor

Hey G.

Was wondering if you've had a chance to dig out the drawings for the 12\" boxes of which you speak. We're freeing up some time to get stuck in and get them built. Thanks G.

Robbo

fouronthefloor

Hey G.

Bernie's been out and bought a heap of ply and is chomping at the bit to get stuck in. We're happy to build either the Fane boxes or your design, but like the idea of a smaller, lighter bit of gear (wrong side of 36, don't you know :roll: ). I'm having a few weeks off as of this weekend as I'm getting attached to the old ball and chain, and we thought we might make a start. Any chance you've come across your plans? As I said, happy to build the Fane boxes if not. Thanks. I'll have a couple of coldies for ya all on the weekend...

Robbo

8)

Gadget

Geez Robbo.. sorry .. been thinking only of myself here.. I'll get right on that...See if the dealer has the drivers first..
in order of most desirable>least
Best...
P Audio SD750N
good...but heavy
P Audio BMD740 (1.4\" exit)
P Audio BMD750 (2\" exit)
good...
P Audio WN D-72

Best
P Audio P12N
Good
P Audio SN12B

Still looking for the horn.. cannot find the #
:?:

G

fouronthefloor

Don't apologise young fella. We all have lives outside the forum and I appreciate your help. I'll look into the drivers but I'm confident we can rustle up something. Thanks again.

Robbo

Gadget

Young fella I'm older then dirt! :roll: Geez.. I have WAAAYYY too much stuff...sill looking... :oops:
G

fouronthefloor

First of all a quick recap on our current setup.

Yamaha mx16/6fx desk
Drive rack PA
2 x QSC amps PLX 3002
1 x Australian Monitor AM1600 amp http://www.jesther.com/dungeon/pdf/AM1600.PDF
2 x yamaha club V SM15V bi amped
2 x custom subs (15inch P audio loaded Fane designs)

At the moment we run stereo, with one PLX running the horns, one PLX running the mids and the AM1600 running bridge mono into the subs, which gives us about 1500W per sub. The subs are set up, one on each side of the stage, with the top boxes sitting over these. We're keen to leave the AM1600 amp at home as it is a heavy bit of gear. We're also building two more subs as we speak and will build two top boxes to replace the SM15V. If we were to run in mono, (we run stereo to pan our two guitars a little and have some stereo keys and drums in our MIDI backing tracks) and were to use channel A on one PLX to run the highs, channel B to run the mids and use the other PLX to run our subs, would this have us lose too much sub power. We would go from 1500W per bin, to 500W per bin (but still 1000W per side), but we would have two subs per side, one on top of the other instead of one per side. Should we consider a smaller, lower powered amp to run the horns, as the PLX is bearly ticking over and keep running stereo. Lots of questions but I appreciate any feedback (of the non squeally type... )

Gadget

Well.. you get 3db of free sound by coupling the subs together, but it won't make up for a 1000 watt drop in power.. I would get a smaller amp for the horns...

G

fouronthefloor

Sorry to be a bit all over the shop here but here we go. Had a bit of a brain storming session and decided that new top boxes are of a far higher priority than two more subs. Our Yamaha club V SM15V top boxes are really harsh and lack lower mid range. Our new plan of attack is to get new top boxes before lashing out on more subs. Unfortunately time does not permit making our own here so we have short listed a few options in the hope of garnishing some feedback from those with experience. If there are any that anyone feels should be considered in the price range of those put forward please feel free to offer these up. It's hard to talk in dollars as the AU to US dollar thing is complicated. Thanks for your thoughts.


EAW fr129Z http://www.eaw.com/products/fr129z.html
turbosound TXD-121 http://www.turbosound.com/showroom/txd121/index.html
EV sx300E http://www.electrovoice.com/products/202.html
hk audio pro12 http://www.scotaudio.com/acatalog/HK_PRO12.html (sorry, all I could find on them)

Dennis

You didn't say if you were looking for new or used. The EAW box isn't the least expensive speaker on your list but you might at least price out an EAW LA212...similar to your FR129z but with a 2\" horn. Might be too expensive though. Gadget swears by a P-Audio box that is quite inexpensive but I haven't heard it yet. I think I will have to pony up and buy one just so I can hear it. Check out P-Audio X 12HP. You don't need a table saw for these but they might be a bit underpowered for your application.

Dennis

Gadget

I do like the P audio cabs, and built a few speakers using their components...but as Dennis said I like 1.4\" or 2\" drivers in my horns for livesound... that said have you checked out (or are they even available there)
D.A.S RF 1294 / 1264
Community IHP 1294 12/64
94=90 deg horizontal 64 =60 deg

in a pinch the below speakers would be a step up from the Yamaha's but nothing like the above...


Community Veris 1264 or 1294

Gadget

fouronthefloor

Thanks guys. I'm looking for some aussie dollar prices on these at the moment. Will weigh up our options over the next couple of days. Thanks again

fouronthefloor

Still on the investigative path before outlaying our hard earned cabbage. I've been recommended these two boxes in addition to those recommended by you guys...

RCF322i
http://www.rcf.it/c/document_library/ge ... E-1607.pdf

and EV ZX3
http://attachments.brisound.com.au/prod ... 1227699626

Has anyone had experience with these? I understand the RCF boxes have a 2\" horn and \"high efficiency mid bass\". My gut instinct looking at the specs is that these may suit us a little better. Any thoughts, observations or general chat on these would be appreciated. Thanks for your help so far...

Dra

Just looking at specs (can be dangerous)... the RCF has a 2\" driver, not a 2\" horn. It is also more efficient than the EV, but the math does not add up for the max SPL. They are fudging something.

The EV will take more power. Looks a little nicer. The RCF seems to have borrowed some of it's look from the Eon (devil horns).

Can you listen to both?

DRA

Gadget

Good point...I wouldn't buy any unknown unless you can hear it... I know the composite speakers look pretty good from a weight point, but I am not sold on them for livesound apps where a possible high spl or large crowd are expected... again a 1.4\"/2\" exit horn in professional grade cab will go a long ways toward filling your bill...Perhaps there are some used quality cabs out there that some rental company, or concert provider is upgrading and selling would be a better way to go?

I started out with used.. and they served well for a long time.. but they were quality speakers that had B&C 750 HF drivers and RCF woofers...

One other possibility that I didn't think of... Yorkville U 15 series...I know Mikey loves his... NOT 1.4\" or 2\" but a unity horn with mids and a sweet sounding cab... with subs you'd like them a lot!

G

Dennis

The RCF looks interesting. email them and ask the size of the 2\" ND horn driver voice coil. Ask for a model or part number and if they have a spec sheet for just the 2\" driver.

Gadget...what is a unity horn?

Dennis

Gadget

Dennis,
Are you familiar with any of Tom Danley's stuff? I assume you have at least heard of him...he is the main practitioner of the unity horns... they are a speaker that has all the drivers aligned inside the mouth of the horn...the Yorkville is a ~ quasi Unity horn in that the woofer is out of the horn... unlike the Danleys.. he used to EE for SPL labs, and now has his own company and has started to really make some waves...his LF designs are legendary...Check out the Matterhorn:
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/matterhorn.htm
It is said that when his tops are properly deployed that with nothing but a source hooked up to them, they sound amazing... and that you can be a foot out of the pattern and hear almost nothing.. and walk into it like a flashlight beam and it will blow you away...

All the components are time aligned inside the horn mouth so the sound is the same everywhere inside the coverage pattern... unlike conventional speakers where the difference in speaker position on the face of a baffle allow different arrival times and phasing interactions cause frequency skewing and cancellations... as well as lobing and better projection of HF than MF/LF...

I guess he now calls it a Synergy horn... but here's a White paper on it:

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/danley_tapped.pdf

Check out his Harley on your system next time your out.. WOW!
(under sound files @ the bottom of the page here:
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/technica ... loads.html

I wish I could afford some

Dennis

Thanks. I will research it.

Dennis

fouronthefloor

Still researching our top boxes. Here is the skinny on things. When we perform as a four piece band (drums, bass, 2 x guitars and 4 x vocals) we have...

Yamaha MG16/6FX
DRPA
2 off Aussie Monitor QMX 212 top boxes (2 x 12\" and horn) powered by two QSC PLX 3002 amps (biamped)]
2 off Aussie Monitor Slam Boxes (2 x 15\" subs) powered by AM1600S amp (1050W per side). This setup is perfect for what we do.

As a duo, playing rock with drums and bass midi files we (currently) use two yamaha SM15IV powered by the two QSC amps and our two Fane design subs powered by the AM1600S amp, bridge mono.

So our aim is to replace the yamaha tops to get a fuller, louder, crisper sound for the duo. I had to research horns after DRA pointed out there is a difference between horn size and driver size. We were looking at passive speakers but was wondering if active speakers might offer more flexibility. I could use them as monitors in the band, or cross side fill on larger jobs, or as back up if the QSC amps failed. Two KV2 KX12 might fit the bill, and be just within budget and have a 1.4\" exit horn and 2.5\" driver.

http://www.kxaudio.com/products.asp?ProdID=KX12

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Gadget

There you go...that's the ticket
G

Dra

Four,
How do you like the MG series mixers? Give a quick review. Things you really like, things you wish were different, things you really don't like.

DRA

Dennis

Re the KX 12, I think the 50W high frequency amplifier and the 1.3 XO point could put you on a short leash.

Dennis

Gadget

They really seem to like the KV stuff @ the PSW... but I see what your saying I just haven't seen any issues with them over there...