260 setup - Yorkville speakers

rschultz

Hi,

Just got a new 260 for our church, I'm new to this type of EQ. Trying to figure out the setup. Do I want graphic or parametric?

Our speakers are Yorkville U15P's, 2 of them with a single sub in line (LS700P). How do I setup the custom speaker setup? These speakers are powered, so the amp is in the speaker. They are tri-amped with 150/150/600W from high to low. Crossover frequencies are at 1250 and 350 Hz. Sub is 700 W.

Our church sanctuary is 50'x50' with the stage and sound booth at opposite corners, chairs diagonally, carpeted, low ceiling.

Thanks.
Ryan

Dra

Welcome.

Are you planning on using the Driveware GUI to control? Well, you should. Go to the \"Driverack Traing Modules\" link above and download (or run online) the tutorial. Then down load the Driveware for the 260 and play a bit.
Then go to the READ ME FIRST SECTION and read the stuff there. All of it will not apply, but a lot of it will answer 90% of all questions that you may have. Then, if you still have a specific question or can't quite grasp something, we'll be glad to help.
GEQ vs PEQ - GEQ is much easier for on the fly changes, but PEQ is superior tonally. For someone in your shoes (fixed and consistant), tweeking with the GEQ until happy then translating the data to the PEQ can be useful.

Good luck,
DRA

rschultz

Dra wrote:

Then down load the Driveware for the 260 and play a bit.
Then go to the READ ME FIRST SECTION and read the stuff there.

OK, got the GUI going, updated firmware and read the Read Me First... although that is going to take me some time to digest.

All I want at this point is 2x2, nothing fancy, I can add bells/whistles later. I selected "wire" for the 2 inserts at this point... ultimately will select AFS and possibly compression later on. I selected custom passive speakers even though my speakers are tri-amped... because tri-amped wasn't an option (only bi-amped). I noticed that this took away the gain control in the setup. Gadget says don't worry about that... we'll fix that in the GAIN STRUCTURE section.

Also didn't select a sub because the sub is inline and thus the 260 won't see it... the speakers/sub both have their own high/low pass filter.

Before I move on to gain structure, is this correct?

Gadget

Hi,
Well, you have the 260 so you can do whatever you want...the \"start here\" kind of assumes the DRPA in many ways and it is simplistic in many ways to the 260...

I think you are under a misconception here.. a 2X6 could be a 3 way tri-amped top.. a bi-amped top and a sub...you could even set up a stereo 4 way system (bi-amp tops in stereo, mono lo-mids and mono subs, I use this config) and the \"config mode is where you set this type of complex system up... in the config mode you can
Re-allocate the delay
Select between the different mono and stereo xover modes
1X1
1X2
1X3 ETC
2X1
2X2
2X6 ETC
select which input (or both the inputs) feed the different outputs
link and unlink modules
change inserts
Change GEQ to PEQ
ETC

It troubles me that you say the sub is \"Inline\"? and not run by the DR... BAD idea...get that thing on the 260...

So these are powered ? speakers? or just have passive crossovers?

When pre processing something like a sub that has a built in LPF you need to set the XOVER point below the set point of the speaker... as in a sub set to LPF @ 120 hz, you could set a 110hz xover and that would be as high as the sub would go....below the passive xover but still better than using the passive since you have all the power:
PEQ's ( a HUGE benefit!!!)
limiters
xovers
phase and delays
HPF and LPF filters
and clarity of the DSP on ALL the speakers.

questions?
Gadget

BTW Compressing the whole mix in (especially church situations) can help CAUSE feedback.. especially with Lav mics in the mix.... :shock:

rschultz

Gadget wrote:

It troubles me that you say the sub is "Inline"? and not run by the DR... BAD idea...get that thing on the 260...
So these are powered ? speakers? or just have passive crossovers?

Yes, after thinking on it, mono sub should have own output like you say. So a 2x3 seems best. Yorkville U15P's are powered... we plug them into the wall. But only has 1 line input per speaker. They are active, tri-amped with DSP protection and 4 position delay for subs. Doesn't specify if the crossovers are active or passive, but I gotta believe they are active since they are part of the DSP.

Yes, compression is for the experienced... I'm not there yet. AFS for module 1, any suggestions for module 2?

Your gain structure procedure says to disconnect the amps, yet have the speakers connected? Either I don't understand or I can't do that with my speakers. Please explain.

New location still under construction. Probably won't get to hook DR to mixer and speakers for about 3 weeks. Using this time to learn DR and other audio stuff... your READ ME section should keep me busy in the mean time.

Website for speakers, click manual link:
<http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?cat=38&type=29&id=346&gt;
<http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?cat=2&type=29&id=240&gt;

Thanks a BUNCH!

Gadget

I HOPE if this is a new church.... that measures have been implemented to get an acoustic person attached to the development...if not... SHAME ON YOU GUYS! That should be among the FIRST considerations when considering a new space...BUT alas..the fact that the room is acoustically destructive falls in the face of \"clean sightlines...and HARD surfaces...

What a shame...if the whole thing was taken as a PROJECT, and compromises were used, I think an acoustically solid, visually pleasing, budget inclusive solution is far superior to pouring money into attempting to solve the problems afterword...

Why is it that a space can be \"BEAUTIFUL\" but you can't hear a thing in there...Treatment and processing are no substitute for acoustics...do it right and the word of GOD will JUMP...out at you. Do it wrong and spend eternity \"NOT\" getting the message :!:

Make sure they have the facility set up,(wiring strung...hanging points identified and marked...) for bi-amping a hung cluster in the center above the stage...L/C/R, or at least [LR][C][LR] with the support structure for the weight of a good system...PLUS power, at least a 12-2with ground..20 amp capable outlet there... Make sure the speakers are rated for flying ...for insurance purposes... and I DO have some suggestions IF things are not \"Cut in stone\" I even have solutions that work when you can't hang a CTR cluster...

Be well
G


8)

Dra

The 260 will see the U15P (although internally tri-amped) as a single passive speaker.
Doing gain structures on active (powered) speakers is difficult at best and takes a bit of intuative trial & error. To be included in the process should be the noise of the cabinet at idle and the point that the internal limiters kick in.

DRA

rschultz

Hi,

This is not a NEW building, we are leasing 6000 sq ft of commercial office space. We gutted it and have now built it up. I wouldn't say things are \"cut in stone\", but there simply aren't many options. We basically have a 50'x50' room with a low (13') ceiling. There isn't much we can do with that from an acoustical design perspective. The screen goes in 1 corner, the sound booth in the other. The speakers have to go on either side of the screen with the sub on the floor in the corner... ceiling isn't high enough for a center cluster. Yes treatments aren't ideal, but it is the best we can do.
I would like to fly the speakers, but haven't got a reasonable solution for that yet. Until then they will go on posts 6-8' high. First quote I got (ATM-flyware) was $3k for 2 speakers hangers... ridiculous. I'll design and fab it myself before I pay that much. Speakers ARE designed for flying... what is your solution when a center cluster is not possible?
Electrical wiring is sound. 2 dedicated 20 amp circuits in the sound booth, 1 audio, 1 video. Max current draw of audio is <7 amps. Speakers amps are on different circuits than sound booth.

Thanks.
Ryan

Gadget

Not much you can do if you already have the speakers...In a room like that multiple small speakers throughout the room would be the ticket. I like the Community CPL 23 and CPL26...they come ready to hang, are small so sight lines are clean, they sound amazing and everyone gets the same experience...I set up a guy that does a theater in a live space (gym) and with 6 of the CPL's he has beautiful coverage of the room. The front row doesn't get blown away, and back row isn't deprived of the experience. I have put them in many churches and they are a big hit wherever I use them...but again, as I said if you already have the speakers...

G

Dennis

Ryan

It sounds like ATM quoted you on custom speaker brackets. They also have many \"off the rack\" solutions that shouldn't cost more than $300 per speaker.

Dennis

Dra

Try to keep speakers away from fluorecent lights and any lights that are dimmable. Try to keep all the sound circuits on the same leg in the panel. This can be done pretty easily inside the panel (swapping breaker wires). Will hanging the cabs sideways in a CC block anything? Add absorption panels, heavy drapes, etc. Padded pews help also. The rear walls could use some \"geometrical breakers\" to divide and conquer waves.

DRA

Dra

Do you have access to the crawl space above the ceiling? If so, eyebolts through the trusses and lift quality chain would be way even cheaper that that. Two hangers and one (or two) pull backs.

DRA

rschultz

I like Gadget's suggestion about speakers. Know anyone interested in some Yorkville U15P's? Yes those U15's are way overkill, as it is now the gain is at 40%.

The ceiling is open... kind of like Caribou Coffee houses.... all the wires/HVAC/etc will be painted over. So the rafters are easy to get to. Although they are 5' apart, so there really is only 2 different configurations that will work. 15' or 20' from the corner. 15' may crowd the musicians on stage. 20' feels too far out... we'll see.

I never thought about hanging them sideways, is that an acceptable way to do it? Bass toward the center? Although I don't think they are meant to hang sideways, it might be hard to tilt them properly with the given mounting slots.

Dra

The Unity horn is conical so dispersion does not change. There appear to be 4 fly points on the top and 4 on the bottom, so If I were to fly them sideways and bolt shear strength is less than it's pull strength, I'd use 2 each T & B for suspension, just to be extra safe.
If you can get a fair price for them, Gadget's idea is the way to go. Those probably run $1300 - $1500 each, so you should be able to get $1000 - $1100 each on Ebay or PSW. That is way more than you'll need.

DRA

Dennis

Dead hanging speakers from the beams will make it more difficult to adjust \"pan\" angle (but not impossible). A proper speaker mount with the ability to swivel will make it easier to fine tune angles while you are fighting with all of the combing you will run into between the two speakers.

Dennis

rschultz

No, there are 2 flypoints on top and 2 on bottom for the U15's. Mounting them sideways might be tricky.

The CPL23s and 27's are wall mount... can they be hung? Both are about $250 each. 250 W amp for 23's would be about $500, 500W amp for 27's would be maybe $800 each, ballpark. So yes $800-1200/speaker.

I was thinking 4 of the 23's and the sub we already have. DR 260 would work great with that setup. What do you think?

Would there be any advantage to getting speakers that the 260 has settings for instead of doing custom on each speaker?

Dra

I was going by the manual, it did mention that some (older?) might only have 2 each.

The CPL's have brackets, so mounting would be quite easy (wall or ceiling). Did you get pricing from Northern? If you run mono, you can get by with one amp.

DRA

rschultz

I've looked at ours, there are 2 on top and 2 on bottom.

I don't want to run mono. So 2 amps... although each amp could run 2 speakers each if I went with 4 speakers. I just did a quick price search on the internet... nothing substantial.

At this point I'm just thinking out loud. We'd have to sell our U15's first before doing this. And I think we would have to run with the U15's for a little while anyway in the new place... until I come up with a good plan and implement it.

rschultz

Back to gain structure. I understand how to do it per channel. But right now I set the gain on the speakers so that the main faders are unity... as loud as I ever would want it... generally run a little under unity. Is there more to it than that? Given that I can't have my speakers on without the amps... I'm not sure what else to do.

Dra

The manual says to set the speaker's level at -0- (12 o'clock) and adjust, if neccessary from there, but that you should get max volume at full input there.

DRA