1) I adjusted the post Xover gain on the 260 by -3.5 dbu. This made the input and output meters on the 260 read the same using pink noise.
2a) I removed the 260 from the chain. But first, I did a loudness check with the 260 inline. I put the iPod into ch16, fader at unity, adjusted gain to get 0 dbu, speaker gains at 2 o'clock. Then I took the master fader to unity... 0dbu on the meter. Listened for a few minutes to get a good feel for the volume with some full range rockin' music (Fireflight). It was a comfortable listening level, not too much though.
2b) Then I took the 260 out, basically removed the inputs and output connectors and connected them together. Ch16 still at unity, speaker still at 2 o'clock. To get the same perceived volume, I had to put the main faders at -35 dbu !!! barely above infinity. THAT is the volume I've been talking about all week, the volume I'm used to in our old building and old system... blow your hair back and make your ears bleed loud.
When I first hooked up the mixer to the speakers the very first time on Tuesday, I thought it was really hot. But after 10 minutes or so I stuck the 260 in and didn't think much about it again... except it always seemed soft from where I thought it should be. But now I know that the 260 is doing something serious to affect it that much.
I would think that if the Driveware meters show the same in and out... that the signal would be the same. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Any ideas? I'm going to call tech support on this one.
When you pulled the DR260 out of the mix and ran signal dirrectly from the mixer to the speakers, there were signal cables left over, unused. Test them for polarity and also check for pin 2 or pin 3 possibly being disconnected at one end or the other.
Actually you will set it to AC. You will need to pass 1Khz or any sine tone, but I recommend anything 100hz to avoid x-over issues. Pink noise will only work if the meter is a true RMS meter. Ground to hot (+) will yield about 2 or so volts at unity and ground to hot (-) the same. Hot (+) to hot (-) will yield about 4 volts. Whatever the reading, it should match to the output of the 260 at the same level from the source. At which point, volume of the speaker HAS to be the same.
You know..I've been following this for a while and I must say it's making me dizzy...
Ryan,
There IS NO post crossover gain...only input gain, and crossover gain.. GEQ's and PEQ's CAN add gain, but not if done properly...(the average of all EQ adjustments should equal -0- ... that's NO GAIN, if that means CUTTING a bunch of bands to AVERAGE -0- then so be it, but there should be as much BELOW -0- as there is above...(in other words move the whole curven order to keep unity... some EQ's only offer cuts.. like Urie...)
Dennis,
The idea behind a gain structure is to take equipment with different gain/impedance numbers and have them all talking the same language... in the gain structure we need to identify where each piece of equipment clips. This way we have them all talking the same language/voltage... thus, when the mixer clips, the amps are (HOPEFULLY) just BELOW clipping...that method you specify will have the operator pushing the master faders too hard...and that will push the limiters WAY TO HARD, and the average signal the speaker see's is so high the duty cycle of the amp will have the power supply exhausted and we all know what THAT means right... yes, the smoke will be let out... and that means you have to get it put BACK into the speakers again and it AIN'T easy or cheap... just ask Dra...
Back to you Ryan...
With the pink noise played into channel 16... place the FADER @ unity on the channel, press the PFL button and set the input channel gain control so that the pink signal averages above 0 vu, but below +10 (this should give you 12 db of headroom minimum...) turn OFF the PFL ... set the MASTER faders (all auxes OFF, all SUBmasters OFF) so that the signal JUST peaks(red clip light flickers...)
What are the 260 INPUT meter showing? THIS IS IMPORTANT!
If the 260 is showing significantly lower levels than the mixer (which should be about 24-28 dbu...) you can adjust the INPUT mixer of the 260.. but BEWARE...DIGITAL clipping is BRUTAL...the board can put +28 db as I recall.. the 260's input gain is @ +22 dbu...so you DO have 6db more gain from the mixer...DON\"T WORRY ABOUT IT!!!! IT\"S called headroom, and a mixer with butt loads of it is a VERY GOOD THING!
Next, with the input of the mixer averaging just above 0-db on the meters (or wherever it ends up with the input mixer gain @ -0- db and the signal hovering at or above that level (BUT WELL BELOW CLIPPING), check the output meters on the individual channels on the DR...
WHAT ARE THEY DOING... this is IMPORTANT!!!
IF they are below the -0- db point you can use the XOVER gains to get them averaging around the -0-db point but WELL BELLOW CLIPPING...
(BTW by decreasing the crossover gain, you dropped another 3.5 db from the mixer levels.. so now were down 9.5 db from the level put out by the mixer...6db from the mixer to the Dr and 3.5 when you dropped the post xover gain... 8) sorry...
Ok so now, what happens with the above, and the speaker on, and the gain @ 12 o'clock?
1. Is it noisy with the mixer master faders down?
2. Is it noisy with the mixer master faders gains @ 0db with NO signal and ALL channel faders DOWN?
3. Can you get sufficient level (with appropriate music using the same method we used to set the pink noise on channel 16...) from the speakers before the mixer clips?
I shall await your responses.. please answer ALL questions...I am exhausted so if any of this doesn't make sense.. pleas ask for clarification...
BTW any and ALL dynamics processing (compression /limiting) can also lower the gain through the DR... you never DID specify if they were all disabled...
G
I'll get to your suggestions at some point, but first the engineer in me wanted to do what Dra suggested. So I grabbed my DVM and headed over to the church. Speakers were all ready in the trailer for tomorrows finale in the old place, but I didn't need them. Unfortunately I grabbed my cheapo meter, only reads VAC in 0.1 increments.
First I measured the mixer output using a 1kHz tone with main faders at unity and 0db on the main meter. I used a XLRF to TRS cable, easier to pick off voltages.
1-2 = 0.3 VAC
1-3 = 0.25
2-3 = 0.8
Next I plugged in the DR260 and checked it's output... 0db in, 0db out on the Driveware meters. Measured the voltage... nothing... or at least less than 0.05 VAC on my meter. I created a new program from scratch, made sure all EQ/comp/limit/etc. was off... still nothing. Then I did a hard reset of the unit, same thing. I even upped the output on the mixer to +5 db:
1-2 = 0.7 VAC
1-3 = 0.6
2-3 = 1.6
Still nothing on the output of the 260. Meters see it, but nothing comes out. I'm not sure where the meters are in the chain, but my guess is after the A/D and before the D/A... sounds like a bad D/A circuit to me.
Is this a new 260? Had you used it before with the old mixer?
If new, send it back for replacement or repair. If old, send it back for repair. I just sent mine back for a glitch it was having. All non-waranty repairs (barring major damages) is a flat rate of $150 and includes return shipping. Typical turn around is 5 - 10 working days.
I wonder if the \"feedback\" was the \"problem showing itself\" and the result is something \"fried\".
You were pretty close in your guess of 10x loss with the 260 inline since you showed about 10x loss in voltage.
If bought 2nd hand it could have been that the previous owner opened the case and flipped the switch (or added the jumper / whatever) to increase the gain, which make the meters inaccurate. But I don't think the gain change would 10x, but I really don't know.
Got it new from Zzounds in mid Jan for a great price ($650 - competitor price match). Started playing around with GUI 3-4 weeks ago at home, but never hooked it up to a mixer/speakers until last week.
I did open up the case and check the gain jumpers. Both in's and out's were set at +22 dbu.
Yes, I had wondered if the feedback was something going bad in the 260. Previous to the feedback I described on Tuesday, the mixer/speakers were working great.
Comments
1) I adjusted the post Xover gain on the 260 by -3.5 dbu. This made the input and output meters on the 260 read the same using pink noise.
2a) I removed the 260 from the chain. But first, I did a loudness check with the 260 inline. I put the iPod into ch16, fader at unity, adjusted gain to get 0 dbu, speaker gains at 2 o'clock. Then I took the master fader to unity... 0dbu on the meter. Listened for a few minutes to get a good feel for the volume with some full range rockin' music (Fireflight). It was a comfortable listening level, not too much though.
2b) Then I took the 260 out, basically removed the inputs and output connectors and connected them together. Ch16 still at unity, speaker still at 2 o'clock. To get the same perceived volume, I had to put the main faders at -35 dbu !!! barely above infinity. THAT is the volume I've been talking about all week, the volume I'm used to in our old building and old system... blow your hair back and make your ears bleed loud.
When I first hooked up the mixer to the speakers the very first time on Tuesday, I thought it was really hot. But after 10 minutes or so I stuck the 260 in and didn't think much about it again... except it always seemed soft from where I thought it should be. But now I know that the 260 is doing something serious to affect it that much.
I would think that if the Driveware meters show the same in and out... that the signal would be the same. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Any ideas? I'm going to call tech support on this one.
DRA
Dennis
You mean a volt meter? Yes. DC, right?
Pin 1 ground, 2 hot, 3 cold.
Pin 1 and 3 should be common right?
I can do that Monday noon.
Ryan
No cables left over. I unplugged the input and output of the 260 and connected the cables together. Both L and R channels.
Ryan
DRA
Ryan,
There IS NO post crossover gain...only input gain, and crossover gain.. GEQ's and PEQ's CAN add gain, but not if done properly...(the average of all EQ adjustments should equal -0- ... that's NO GAIN, if that means CUTTING a bunch of bands to AVERAGE -0- then so be it, but there should be as much BELOW -0- as there is above...(in other words move the whole curven order to keep unity... some EQ's only offer cuts.. like Urie...)
Dennis,
The idea behind a gain structure is to take equipment with different gain/impedance numbers and have them all talking the same language... in the gain structure we need to identify where each piece of equipment clips. This way we have them all talking the same language/voltage... thus, when the mixer clips, the amps are (HOPEFULLY) just BELOW clipping...that method you specify will have the operator pushing the master faders too hard...and that will push the limiters WAY TO HARD, and the average signal the speaker see's is so high the duty cycle of the amp will have the power supply exhausted and we all know what THAT means right... yes, the smoke will be let out... and that means you have to get it put BACK into the speakers again and it AIN'T easy or cheap... just ask Dra...
Back to you Ryan...
With the pink noise played into channel 16... place the FADER @ unity on the channel, press the PFL button and set the input channel gain control so that the pink signal averages above 0 vu, but below +10 (this should give you 12 db of headroom minimum...) turn OFF the PFL ... set the MASTER faders (all auxes OFF, all SUBmasters OFF) so that the signal JUST peaks(red clip light flickers...)
What are the 260 INPUT meter showing? THIS IS IMPORTANT!
If the 260 is showing significantly lower levels than the mixer (which should be about 24-28 dbu...) you can adjust the INPUT mixer of the 260.. but BEWARE...DIGITAL clipping is BRUTAL...the board can put +28 db as I recall.. the 260's input gain is @ +22 dbu...so you DO have 6db more gain from the mixer...DON\"T WORRY ABOUT IT!!!! IT\"S called headroom, and a mixer with butt loads of it is a VERY GOOD THING!
Next, with the input of the mixer averaging just above 0-db on the meters (or wherever it ends up with the input mixer gain @ -0- db and the signal hovering at or above that level (BUT WELL BELOW CLIPPING), check the output meters on the individual channels on the DR...
WHAT ARE THEY DOING... this is IMPORTANT!!!
IF they are below the -0- db point you can use the XOVER gains to get them averaging around the -0-db point but WELL BELLOW CLIPPING...
(BTW by decreasing the crossover gain, you dropped another 3.5 db from the mixer levels.. so now were down 9.5 db from the level put out by the mixer...6db from the mixer to the Dr and 3.5 when you dropped the
Ok so now, what happens with the above, and the speaker on, and the gain @ 12 o'clock?
1. Is it noisy with the mixer master faders down?
2. Is it noisy with the mixer master faders gains @ 0db with NO signal and ALL channel faders DOWN?
3. Can you get sufficient level (with appropriate music using the same method we used to set the pink noise on channel 16...) from the speakers before the mixer clips?
I shall await your responses.. please answer ALL questions...I am exhausted so if any of this doesn't make sense.. pleas ask for clarification...
Gadget
G
I'll get to your suggestions at some point, but first the engineer in me wanted to do what Dra suggested. So I grabbed my DVM and headed over to the church. Speakers were all ready in the trailer for tomorrows finale in the old place, but I didn't need them. Unfortunately I grabbed my cheapo meter, only reads VAC in 0.1 increments.
First I measured the mixer output using a 1kHz tone with main faders at unity and 0db on the main meter. I used a XLRF to TRS cable, easier to pick off voltages.
1-2 = 0.3 VAC
1-3 = 0.25
2-3 = 0.8
Next I plugged in the DR260 and checked it's output... 0db in, 0db out on the Driveware meters. Measured the voltage... nothing... or at least less than 0.05 VAC on my meter. I created a new program from scratch, made sure all EQ/comp/limit/etc. was off... still nothing. Then I did a hard reset of the unit, same thing. I even upped the output on the mixer to +5 db:
1-2 = 0.7 VAC
1-3 = 0.6
2-3 = 1.6
Still nothing on the output of the 260. Meters see it, but nothing comes out. I'm not sure where the meters are in the chain, but my guess is after the A/D and before the D/A... sounds like a bad D/A circuit to me.
If new, send it back for replacement or repair. If old, send it back for repair. I just sent mine back for a glitch it was having. All non-waranty repairs (barring major damages) is a flat rate of $150 and includes return shipping. Typical turn around is 5 - 10 working days.
I wonder if the \"feedback\" was the \"problem showing itself\" and the result is something \"fried\".
You were pretty close in your guess of 10x loss with the 260 inline since you showed about 10x loss in voltage.
DRA.
Gadget?
DRA
I did open up the case and check the gain jumpers. Both in's and out's were set at +22 dbu.
Yes, I had wondered if the feedback was something going bad in the 260. Previous to the feedback I described on Tuesday, the mixer/speakers were working great.
G