X over gain settings and mixing tips
georgesguitars
Posts: 38
Hi again, Forum,
I have a couple of questions today which will require a little wordy setup. You guys have helped me tune my system: A&H 16:2Wz3, DRPA+ to QSC153i tops and QSC GX5s to PV118 subs. For mons I use a DRPX into a pair of QSC K12s. I have enjoyed all the gain structure study here and currently do not open the power amps up. Typical night at the open mic I run: everything sounds good and crisp, no feedback etc. Mostly acoustic performers come here but every now and then we have bands. Bands say, "Wow, I'm not used to hearing everything so good etc, great sound etc." Then they start to turn up. Then they start tonguing and screaming into my mics, causing me to drop their gain, then they complain they can't hear themselves as well anymore and maybe I'm an idiot etc as they get even closer to the mics and yell even harder. And to think we were once friends when all of this started.... I'm experimenting with compression on each vocal channel via insert. I have a Samson SCom 4 4-channel comp unit that I'm using to compress serious vocal episodes with and to bring out small things that might be missed. I am currently not using any compression or limiting with my DR units.
Question 1: How can I become better at dealing with this challenging situation?
Question 2: Is this an indication that I could still be tuned better?
If I had to criticize my system I would have to say, "Incomplete in low end power across the whole low end." Every note on the top string on a 4 string bass and the kick drum are all very satisfying to me, big and smooth, no ugly rumbles indicating too much of something. Above those there is a deficit to my ear. I have read a good deal of the postings by Dr J who also helped me via e-mails tune up my system. I don't really think he got an answer to his recurring question about the DRPA lo outputs being less in the meters than his mid or high outputs, which match (mid-hi match) if the crossover gains are all set at 0. Let me introduce this also. My PV 118s are 95 db efficient while the 153i's are 133.
Question 3: Should I take this efficiency difference into account in setting crossover gain? I use presets where I custom input components as well as presets where my components are listed. I also am experimenting all the time with this gear as to crossover points and filters and listening, though I have not taken to raising the lo crossover gain. There is almost 40 db efficiency difference between the subs and tops. (Of course a new pair of QSC powered 18s are 134 db efficient. Am I trying to incentivize myself?)
I have not tried opening up the poweramps and using the master fader as volume control yet, so I get into the yellow sometimes. If I have revealed some sheer stupidity in this post I beg instruction. If my information is incomplete (equipment etc) I'll get you what you need to help me. Still seeking perfection...
George
I have a couple of questions today which will require a little wordy setup. You guys have helped me tune my system: A&H 16:2Wz3, DRPA+ to QSC153i tops and QSC GX5s to PV118 subs. For mons I use a DRPX into a pair of QSC K12s. I have enjoyed all the gain structure study here and currently do not open the power amps up. Typical night at the open mic I run: everything sounds good and crisp, no feedback etc. Mostly acoustic performers come here but every now and then we have bands. Bands say, "Wow, I'm not used to hearing everything so good etc, great sound etc." Then they start to turn up. Then they start tonguing and screaming into my mics, causing me to drop their gain, then they complain they can't hear themselves as well anymore and maybe I'm an idiot etc as they get even closer to the mics and yell even harder. And to think we were once friends when all of this started.... I'm experimenting with compression on each vocal channel via insert. I have a Samson SCom 4 4-channel comp unit that I'm using to compress serious vocal episodes with and to bring out small things that might be missed. I am currently not using any compression or limiting with my DR units.
Question 1: How can I become better at dealing with this challenging situation?
Question 2: Is this an indication that I could still be tuned better?
If I had to criticize my system I would have to say, "Incomplete in low end power across the whole low end." Every note on the top string on a 4 string bass and the kick drum are all very satisfying to me, big and smooth, no ugly rumbles indicating too much of something. Above those there is a deficit to my ear. I have read a good deal of the postings by Dr J who also helped me via e-mails tune up my system. I don't really think he got an answer to his recurring question about the DRPA lo outputs being less in the meters than his mid or high outputs, which match (mid-hi match) if the crossover gains are all set at 0. Let me introduce this also. My PV 118s are 95 db efficient while the 153i's are 133.
Question 3: Should I take this efficiency difference into account in setting crossover gain? I use presets where I custom input components as well as presets where my components are listed. I also am experimenting all the time with this gear as to crossover points and filters and listening, though I have not taken to raising the lo crossover gain. There is almost 40 db efficiency difference between the subs and tops. (Of course a new pair of QSC powered 18s are 134 db efficient. Am I trying to incentivize myself?)
I have not tried opening up the poweramps and using the master fader as volume control yet, so I get into the yellow sometimes. If I have revealed some sheer stupidity in this post I beg instruction. If my information is incomplete (equipment etc) I'll get you what you need to help me. Still seeking perfection...
George
0
Comments
Stick around I'm writing a reply now...
G
DRA
This is the age old battle with muso's....especially live band types... they are DEF (HUH :twisted: ) you need to get them to aim their personal instruments at them in the case of guitar and bass...try and get NOTHING in the monitors BUT the vocals...place the instruments so they wash the stage not the audience...you also need to get them to understand that the less stage volume the better you can make them sound out front. That if you exceed the volume you set the speakers up at you WILL get feedback... the most PERFECTLY tuned monitors are only tuned to be perfect up to a specific volume, after that all bets are off...further, compressing the vocals going to the monitors can actually CAUSE feedback. I assume here you are running the monitors from FOH? the ONLY way this is possible is if the channel insert point is POST aux send.. for instance... if you had a vocal on channel 11 for instance and wanted to insert a comp on that channel, we don't want the compressor to comp the monitor signal ! ( reason is....a compressor squashes loud passages but LOOKS for quiet passages...so, the singer stops singing.. the compressor starts looking for signal monitor feeds back...) I cannot get into the A&H sites block diagram for the unit or I'd check but I doubt that the insert point on the channel strip is post aux send, they are usually pre/post FADER not pre/post insert... but check yourself...
This is going to make it difficult for you to comp a signal and NOT have it comp the monitor as well... with only one mixer...
Perhaps a better solution is to use the LIMITER on the PX and see if you can't catch some of that splatter... there is limiters in the speakers too but in this case limiting might be a better solution... and do it BEFORE it gets to the speakers...
So, questions 1& 2 are pretty much covered above...
... no....incorrect .... those are 2 different measurements...you are stating the EFFICIENCY measurement of the PV118's and the MAX SPL of the QSC's... they are 2 different specs all together...an active speaker isn't going to have a published efficiency rating because they are powered internally...
not trying to disparage or "incentivize" you but you may NEVER be able to get the low end you want out of those PV118 speakers....they just don't have the right driver, they are more of a midbass speaker. With that amp you are limited pretty much as well...a couple of Yorkville LS1208's and a Crown Xti 400/6000 you would have something.. also the powered QSC's are good as well but you'd need more of them than with the LS/XTi setup.
Look this over and see if you have more questions...
G
I sent a pretty long one 15 mins ago. Lost is cyberland, I guess.
DRA
G
DRA
The fact that QSC plays the numbers game is no surprise... they're simply trying to "Keep up with the Jone's"... There is NO WAY those speakers can produce 133db across the full spectrum... much less for any duration. I have to assume here that the rating is @ a high frequency and is a millisecond burst frequency that likely destroyed the transducer...but they can show actual figures if pressed to do so.... no the fact is I bet they are in the 125-126db continuous for "standard rock music" with a duty cycle of under 20%...otherwise
As for the Peaveys... as I said they are midbass speakers... not subs, and I would be VERY surprised if they are only -3db at 40hz...I suspect 50 hz maybe.... but 40hz?
As I see it, Peavey is playing the same game... just with different equipment...I suspect if those subs COULD hit the 118db published spec it would also be @ somewhere well over 100 hz maybe even as high as 400hz...
So if your looking for truth in advertising... there isn't any...
G
DRA
Had to bus tables this evening and wasn't home to get the replies. It's neat how y'all were fighting to reply first. Okay, I get that: no insert compressors. I was actually testing it with the monitors the other day just to hear the effect. That proves the inserts are pre.
How about this then: aux 1 to compressor (vox, kick etc) back to channel 13 as if an effect return, aux 2 to gate (some drum mics, etc,) back to channel 14 as a return, aux's 3 and 4 are for monitors, 5 and 6 for effects. I can hear a volume increase in the compressed and gated items when I raise channels 13 and 14 faders at appropriate times. Is this the kind of volume I'm interested in? I'm not able to squash a vocalist this way but it does avoid getting the compressor in the monitors. It has also allowed me to set individual channel gain and fader conservatively, then pumping said items up with channels 13 or 14. I've been doing it this way for a few weeks not knowing any better and was just about to change to the channel insert method hoping for more control over vocal events.
I confess don't know what the term duty cycle means. It appears that there is a lot of sales stuff to see through and money still to be spent here. I saw a guy run sound for Webb Wilder in the venue I do our open mic in. He had 2 2x18 scoops on their sides and Mackie powered speakers (similar to my QSCs I think) on top of those. There was a FOH and monitor board. He used the same board as I own for just the monitors. The low end was literally 6 feet off the floor and all the other audio just bounced around happily on top of it. There was so much low. It was a great show too.
I don't guess I can get that type of sound with what equipment I have now in one vanload, is the upshot of it all. Because of this, any hints or help so I can get the most out of my gear are even more important. I feel like I'm selling and delivering a service, so I have to take it seriously.
I have the subs touching in front of the stage with no boundary 3.5, 7 or 14 feet away (I'm going insane aren't I?). I'm not using the Subharm. What about experimenting with crossover gain? What about PEQ use? I think I still have one lo band left to use. Would the Crown amp help the PV118s now? ...one 25 lb amp in my rack as opposed to two....
Honestly, this stuff is probably loud enough for what we do in this room. I do want to perfect its performance. I want the live sound as good as my iPod going through the system, which pounds the whole audio spectrum to my ear, which is why I'm now expecting more. I want to hear more than just the kick drum and low E string bass notes in the low end (Is this the 63hz efficiency spike I've been warned about, and I just like it 'cause it's louder than the rest of this speaker's below flat response?) And I want to continue to earn income with it until I can upgrade.
Thanks, guys
Fact is those subs will never work well for live audio.... they won't keep up with the tops, and that dynamic live sound will over-excrude and hit the X max of the driver before it really gets going...I have provided plans for a low cost high output sub in the FAQ section that even the 1.25 liter 15" version will do what you want and are VERY portable.
http://www.fane-acoustics.com/resources.aspx
They kick ass like crazy for a tiny little package...or there is Danley sound and Yorkville makes a small sub... if portability are paramount issues...
Yes, that is probably the best route to go without any sub masters or VCA's
Yes that's fine, 3&4 are pre fader sends...
yes, just be careful about sending effects to the monitors in this config... the fact that they are post fader means that as you increase the gain of the fader it will also increase in the monitor send...
Duty cycle is a measure of the time an amplifier is "working", lets take the kick for instance ...THUD it produced a short burst of sound....silence.... the amp rests and prepares for another sound... THUD ... again a short burst...yes, there is some information in between ...guitars, bass, and so on, but the kick (and to some degree the bass) determine the amount the amp is actually working... as opposed to resting preparing to work again. Most amp MFG'rs rate the amps current draw @ 1/8 and 1/5th power or duty cycle...that means with normal R&R the amp is only working 1/8th or 1/5th of the time. A continuous sine wave or pink noise will have a MUCH higher duty cycle depending on the volume you set as much as 100%.... as when we do a gain structure and drive the amps to clipping. the higher the duty cycle the more the amp works, the hotter the voice coils get (and they do get hot) and the closer you get to thermal damage.
What about experimenting with crossover gain? What about PEQ use? I think I still have one lo band left to use. Would the Crown amp help the PV118s now? ...one 25 lb amp in my rack as opposed to two....[/quote][/quote]
That one amp in bridged mode will give you 3200 watts into 4 ohms...which would be 1600 watts per driver with 2 single 8 ohm subs...alas that is too much power for those subs... but again...my car will do well over 100 MPH...BUT I don't NEED to go that fast all the time do I? BUT with a BW18@45hz HPF those subs would give you a lot more than they are right now I bet...just understand that you can EASILY overpower those subs, and any CLACKING sound is the death nil of the drivers as the voice coil impacts the magnet structure back plate. BTW those amps are very affordable @ Northern Sound and Light...
G
You're right, NSL has that amp for about 1/2 of what musiciansfriend is offering it for. Is that enough amp for me if I upgrade speakers to the suggested Yorkville or other serious subs soon after? You have suggested several brands and models, but, if you had the choice, what and how many subs and amps would you put under my QSCs for the ideal balance and pounding low end experience? I'll be selling all the EQs the driverack made obsolete. I'll probably be selling the PV118s when I upgrade subs. Every time I spend several thousand dollars I find maybe there's something else I should've done. Should I plan on building a P.A. from scratch or are the QSCs I have useful? I'd like to get it all in one Dodge Caravan if possible along with guitars, basses, redheads etc. Thanks for all the help you've given already. I'm off to another night of bussing tables.
George
I hear excellent things about the QSC K12, and if you have the money the Ksubs would do good as well, but not likr the little thunder puppies and the Crown amps...
Yorkville makes the LS 608 and 808... The 608 however is nice and small like the thunder puppies...would do great with the Crown Xti's
With any of the suggestions you could start with 2 subs and one amp or 2 subs and 2 amps then add 2 more subs in thge later or 2 more subs and 1 more amp.... As you get bigger get more of what you have (less the Peaveys that is...)
I started out in the restaurant biz as a dishwasher, then Bussboy on up and am a master chef as well now... actually got of the restaurant biz... hated it...
G
Thanks
If your going to be in the food service waiting tables is the most lucrative postition... but as you say you need to be a "People" person!
G
The most difficult thing is probably the grill. Make sure that you have a plan before you get there and say, "Now what?". Appearance, rattle control, etc.
DRA
I have built a butload of subs and have never had a problem yet... what are you gettin at here?
follow the plans get great low end...I even threw a couple of Eminence omega 15's in and they sound great and kick ass just like the Fane and P Audio drivers do...
Be well Old buddy
Just saying that the plans don't reference a grill / covering, so you're on your own to come up with something. Perferated metal?, Exanded metal?, Curved for added strength?, Flat?, Boxed (folded edges)?, Powder-coated?, plasti-coated?, Can it be bought cut to size?, How can it be bent? What awg is best?......
That's all.
Measure twice. Cut once.
DRA
using these as holddowns:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=262-869
There is anew amp possibility.. I admit I haven't checked out yet, and it is a Behringer... but it's 3000 watts and 22 lbs...$300... :shock: worth a look if on a budget???YMMV
[url=EPX3000http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/catagories.html]EPX3000http://www.northernsound.net/Sal ... ories.html[/url]
G
That is the obvious way to go. My eyes were clouded with my "own" (***) perspective, since I do some corporate (like) stuff, appearence is paramount. But for a bar band in the mostly dark... perfect.
DRA
***edited without ANY permission whatsoever..
gadget
This is a prototype and I will most likely add foam and or fabric to the grill...
I read in the original DIY Sub post that these boxes will handle 2400 watts each. The LoudspeakerPlus website showing PAudio rates the speakers at 600 watts. I'm about to learn something here aren't I? Show #1 down, no worries. Tonight, The Monsters and Rose And The Rebels. Tomorrow, back at the restaurant...
G
DRA
***edited without ANY permission whatsoever..
gadget[/quote]
??? I don't emember what I said.