Guys,
As I browse the speaker manufacturers pages it dawns on me I no NOTHING about freq. response or resonant frequency. Eminence has the
Kilomax 15A for example.
Size: 15"
Power Rating: 1,250W RMS
Frequency Response: 44-800Hz
Sensitivity: 95.5db
Impedance: 8 ohms
Voice Coil: 4" edge wound
Resonant Frequency: 41 Hz
Magnet Weight: 109 oz.
If I compare it to the one right next to it, the
Omega Pro 15A,
Size: 15"
Power Rating: 800W RMS
Frequency Response: 51-1.7kHz
Sensitivity: 97db
Impedance: 8 ohms
Voice Coil: 4" edge wound
Resonant Frequency: 33 Hz
Magnet Weight: 109 oz.
I notice a higher freq response but a lower resonant frequency. The sensitivity is different also. What do these things mean to me as I consider speaker purchases? I am interested in building four thunderpuppies now but am interested in the GASP top, or the ideas behind it as well. My experiences this weekend with a band outrunning my storebought, pretty P.A., I only having their vocals in it, underscore my need for an overpowering system. (Of course, when my band played after them, I grabbed the master slider and reduced the volume and we sounded better even with drums mic'd and 3 part harmonies included) It looks like homemade is the way to go, dollar for dollar for power and portability. This is just one more thing I know nothing about. I've invested money in gear, time in study and instruction but I don't actually have an endless supply of either. What I mean is the next move I make has to be a deliberate success. I want the "Poopy Pants" lo end with the loud and clear at any (?) volume top. I may not use all the power all the time, but when I need it...I'm trying to deliver a product here. More power probably means more sophisticated DSPs as well, right?
Thanks all...
All righty then...lets get a couple of these things out of the way right now...
More power probably means more sophisticated DSPs as well, right?
You may very well WANT to upgrade your system as you get more knowledgeable and WANT to continue your groth but I promise you this...
"The more you learn, the less you know!"
The reason we build our own, is that to get a comparable product we would have to spend far more than is justified for what we get paid... We have a world class subwoofer in DIY that can run with the $3000-8000 subs from EAW and BASSMAX, and JBL, and top boxes that are more capable of providing a professional sound and output.
There are some good commercial values out there... Like the DAS RF1294 2way X 12" tops That you would be hard pressed to DIY for the money, and they are excellent... You would spend more than double to get a speaker any where near as good...
As for that P.O.S Eminence Killomax piece of dung...(my way of emphasizing that specs are dubious at best) the efficiency and resonant frequency should tell you that Killomax is a power hungry, inefficient, limited frequency, terrible choice for a subwoofer You definately don't get what you pay for with el cheapo speakers... the JBL JR series speakers are awful...and they are not alone. You really need to get in the $1000 + per cabinet (NON powered) speakers to get anything better than crap...(not talking DJ stuff here...and exempting the 1264's above http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html scroll down to the RF1294)
If you really want to buy once cry once and have a rider friendly system you better have DEEP pockets...like the rest of us (except Dennis) buy good used gear or DIY... there is ENORMOUS satisfaction in building a system and having it knock your socks off! (and pots and pans in the adjacent kitchen, and seeing dust and debris raining down from the ceiling...and you PANTS moving.... when your standing still...
Here's something I just read that is worded pretty well... It's available in an article that you might want to read... if only to get corroboration of what we have been discussing here, here's the quote:
A driver with 3 dB less sensitivity requires twice the power to produce the same output. A woofer with 96 dB sensitivity and 500 watts power handling will get as loud as a 1,000-watt driver with 93 dB sensitivity using twice the power.
The driverack can take a substandard sounding speaker and make it sound better... but a speaker with good to great components don't usually need as drastic an amount of treatment. but ALL are better if properly processed...Even the very best systems like Nexo, L Acoustic, D&B... use processing to make them sound the way they do. More and more we are seeing locked processor systems that do not allow the user to control the tuning of the speakers. This is because in the hands of the un-initiated and unqualified, a perfectly good speaker system can be made to sound DREADFUL! (and I must say, I hear a LOT more terrible sounding system than I do good ones...
There are processors that are perceived by some to "sound" better than the driverack.. even within the driverack stable there are sonic differences that even an old fart like me can hear. the DRPA/PX/+ have a different sound than the 260, which is smoother, more defined, much like the difference between "British" and other console Eq...The 400 series was even better and now the 4800 is said to be "transparent" sounding... while the XTA units are said to sound "warm".
The thing the driverack has over any other processor... for the novice/beginner/weekend warrior, is that the tool set is more complete, and the higher you get in the food chain the better the tool set, and the sonic qualities.
Gadget,
That link had good info about the AES test, as well as other neat stuff I've never heard or thought of before. There was a gallery of drivers etc. I followed one to the Fane website and found the Colossuses(?) The Fane Colossus speakers have been done in. Nobody sells them in the U.S., or I just can't find the right links or information (International shipping???...eek!). As I compare what is available to them I haven't found similar numbers. Loudspeakersplus had suggestions for the 18"s, P-Audio's C18 650 EL. There is the 15" version, C15 600 EL. I think you suggested that one to me, Gadget. Open Mic was canceled this evening due to sleet. Building boxes as soon as I can decide on speakers. I'll keep you posted...
All,
Actually I'm waiting to hear back from MCM on the Fane speakers. I called them and their customer no-service expert had not even heard of Fane, although stocking 21 of their items. The P-Audio 15's are on sale right now, the temptation is almost more than I can bear. After looking at spec sheets for a LOT of speakers and despite my previous and ongoing study, I have questions. Most of these speakers are actually louder higher than we are crossing them over. A lot have loudness at 200hz or better (pink noise graphs) and some have have bubbles at 1khz etc. In any event, in the 70, 60, 50hz range and below they all fall off dramatically.
1. Why do we do what we do?
2. Could one of us invent another, more efficient way to shake the hell out of a place? (generator, motor, focused lazer beam etc)
3. Until I build, could I overlap the crossover, lowering the high crossover point, getting the 15 in the 153i to take on more low?
4. Did I just reveal stoopidity?
Had a good crowd this weekend, made a little dough for a change. It must be refund time.
George
A&H 16:2wz3
DRPA+
2 QSC 153i
2 QSC GX5 -2 Peavey PV118
In a 3-way box you can let the low component carry a little more load without affecting the vocals as much. Maybe 1/2 octive or so.
As far as over-lapping goes... usually not recommended. You can always try, but remember to walk the room.
MCM will special order those XB Collosus drivers... lead time they said was about 2 weeks to a month... they were like $230 and they were looking at stocking them, you just need to contact customer service about it...that IS the definitive driver for that cab...the "P' Audio and others would be a slightly lesser driver for that box, although a number of them will work... including the Eminence Omega series...
Most non horn loaded subs will be most efficient well above the intended range of the speaker cab...this is, true of your 115's as well... but the subs get honky when they are crossed higher than about 120 hz...forget the fact they can and don't worry about it till you need to match tops that have small drivers like the 8" and 10' that aren't good below 200 hz... then be prepared to do some serious EQ work on the subs...
1. Why do we do what we do?/quote]
I don't know..,. because were all masochists and ENJOY too much work for too little pay...
2. Could one of us invent another, more efficient way to shake the hell out of a place? (generator, motor, focused lazer beam etc)/quote]
Already been done.. but how practical is a device that would level your house if you turned up up top it's potential :shock:
3. Until I build, could I overlap the crossover, lowering the high crossover point, getting the 15 in the 153i to take on more low?/quote]
Why? that part of the sound the subs put out doesn't take that much power... not like the sub 50 stuff...AND interaction in the crossover region causes havoc with the sound in that region... in other words... cancellations/couplings?etc. happen when two adjacent drivers are reproducing the same frequencies.. because they arrive a different times due to processing and time and distance and when they do, the sound is affected... badly. Thats why in a dual 12"/15" speaker they have ~quasi~ three way design where the top woofer is limited to about 300-400 hz generally.. to minimize the interaction in that area...
Did I just reveal stoopidity?/quote]
Stupid? no only the unasked question is as you say.. "stoopid"
Well that was a dumb idea. Even at low volumes, high crossover and overlapped crossovers, in this case result in ... a mess. I have called and e-mailed MCM and am still waiting.
I got the same runaround and I just stated "Hey, you are carrying the Fane line and I want to get a speaker thats not shown on the pages...they asked what model # and I said Collosus XB 15" ....they came back saying all I had to do was tell them I wanted them special ordered and they would get them...I also told them that FANE had a market here for those drivers and they were going to see about carrying them for us pro audio types....even said they had gotten some previous requests for them.
Comments
Dr. J
As I browse the speaker manufacturers pages it dawns on me I no NOTHING about freq. response or resonant frequency. Eminence has the
Kilomax 15A for example.
Size: 15"
Power Rating: 1,250W RMS
Frequency Response: 44-800Hz
Sensitivity: 95.5db
Impedance: 8 ohms
Voice Coil: 4" edge wound
Resonant Frequency: 41 Hz
Magnet Weight: 109 oz.
If I compare it to the one right next to it, the
Omega Pro 15A,
Size: 15"
Power Rating: 800W RMS
Frequency Response: 51-1.7kHz
Sensitivity: 97db
Impedance: 8 ohms
Voice Coil: 4" edge wound
Resonant Frequency: 33 Hz
Magnet Weight: 109 oz.
I notice a higher freq response but a lower resonant frequency. The sensitivity is different also. What do these things mean to me as I consider speaker purchases? I am interested in building four thunderpuppies now but am interested in the GASP top, or the ideas behind it as well. My experiences this weekend with a band outrunning my storebought, pretty P.A., I only having their vocals in it, underscore my need for an overpowering system. (Of course, when my band played after them, I grabbed the master slider and reduced the volume and we sounded better even with drums mic'd and 3 part harmonies included) It looks like homemade is the way to go, dollar for dollar for power and portability. This is just one more thing I know nothing about. I've invested money in gear, time in study and instruction but I don't actually have an endless supply of either. What I mean is the next move I make has to be a deliberate success. I want the "Poopy Pants" lo end with the loud and clear at any (?) volume top. I may not use all the power all the time, but when I need it...I'm trying to deliver a product here. More power probably means more sophisticated DSPs as well, right?
Thanks all...
You may very well WANT to upgrade your system as you get more knowledgeable and WANT to continue your groth but I promise you this...
"The more you learn, the less you know!"
The reason we build our own, is that to get a comparable product we would have to spend far more than is justified for what we get paid... We have a world class subwoofer in DIY that can run with the $3000-8000 subs from EAW and BASSMAX, and JBL, and top boxes that are more capable of providing a professional sound and output.
There are some good commercial values out there... Like the DAS RF1294 2way X 12" tops That you would be hard pressed to DIY for the money, and they are excellent... You would spend more than double to get a speaker any where near as good...
As for that P.O.S Eminence Killomax piece of dung...(my way of emphasizing that specs are dubious at best) the efficiency and resonant frequency should tell you that Killomax is a power hungry, inefficient, limited frequency, terrible choice for a subwoofer
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/spea ... frame.html scroll down to the RF1294)
If you really want to buy once cry once and have a rider friendly system you better have DEEP pockets...like the rest of us (except Dennis) buy good used gear or DIY... there is ENORMOUS satisfaction in building a system and having it knock your socks off! (and pots and pans in the adjacent kitchen, and seeing dust and debris raining down from the ceiling...and you PANTS moving.... when your standing still...
Your mileage may vary...
Gadget
And the location of the article...
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/real ... r_drivers/
The driverack can take a substandard sounding speaker and make it sound better... but a speaker with good to great components don't usually need as drastic an amount of treatment. but ALL are better if properly processed...Even the very best systems like Nexo, L Acoustic, D&B... use processing to make them sound the way they do. More and more we are seeing locked processor systems that do not allow the user to control the tuning of the speakers. This is because in the hands of the un-initiated and unqualified, a perfectly good speaker system can be made to sound DREADFUL! (and I must say, I hear a LOT more terrible sounding system than I do good ones...
There are processors that are perceived by some to "sound" better than the driverack.. even within the driverack stable there are sonic differences that even an old fart like me can hear. the DRPA/PX/+ have a different sound than the 260, which is smoother, more defined, much like the difference between "British" and other console Eq...The 400 series was even better and now the 4800 is said to be "transparent" sounding... while the XTA units are said to sound "warm".
The thing the driverack has over any other processor... for the novice/beginner/weekend warrior, is that the tool set is more complete, and the higher you get in the food chain the better the tool set, and the sonic qualities.
G
That link had good info about the AES test, as well as other neat stuff I've never heard or thought of before. There was a gallery of drivers etc. I followed one to the Fane website and found the Colossuses(?) The Fane Colossus speakers have been done in. Nobody sells them in the U.S., or I just can't find the right links or information (International shipping???...eek!). As I compare what is available to them I haven't found similar numbers. Loudspeakersplus had suggestions for the 18"s, P-Audio's C18 650 EL. There is the 15" version, C15 600 EL. I think you suggested that one to me, Gadget. Open Mic was canceled this evening due to sleet. Building boxes as soon as I can decide on speakers. I'll keep you posted...
Actually I'm waiting to hear back from MCM on the Fane speakers. I called them and their customer no-service expert had not even heard of Fane, although stocking 21 of their items. The P-Audio 15's are on sale right now, the temptation is almost more than I can bear. After looking at spec sheets for a LOT of speakers and despite my previous and ongoing study, I have questions. Most of these speakers are actually louder higher than we are crossing them over. A lot have loudness at 200hz or better (pink noise graphs) and some have have bubbles at 1khz etc. In any event, in the 70, 60, 50hz range and below they all fall off dramatically.
1. Why do we do what we do?
2. Could one of us invent another, more efficient way to shake the hell out of a place? (generator, motor, focused lazer beam etc)
3. Until I build, could I overlap the crossover, lowering the high crossover point, getting the 15 in the 153i to take on more low?
4. Did I just reveal stoopidity?
Had a good crowd this weekend, made a little dough for a change. It must be refund time.
George
A&H 16:2wz3
DRPA+
2 QSC 153i
2 QSC GX5 -2 Peavey PV118
As far as over-lapping goes... usually not recommended. You can always try, but remember to walk the room.
DRA
Most non horn loaded subs will be most efficient well above the intended range of the speaker cab...this is, true of your 115's as well... but the subs get honky when they are crossed higher than about 120 hz...forget the fact they can and don't worry about it till you need to match tops that have small drivers like the 8" and 10' that aren't good below 200 hz... then be prepared to do some serious EQ work on the subs...
be persistent...
G