Yamaha S115V rebuild as per the FAQ post
Jeff S.
Posts: 22
Hello Gadget,
Now that I have most of my band’s original “nightmare gear setup issues� straightened out, I would like to repair the two Yamaha S115V cabinets they blew out before I signed on, in the manner of your FAQ post below:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1081
I took a quick listen to one of them and yep, the horn is gone. I presume this is the case on the other one as well. I also presume the 15� speakers in both cabs are fine … of course I would confirm this during the repair. So …
Could you give me a list of the parts you used for your rebuild, plus any other info that would help? We could do this either via email or here on the forum – your call. If you want to do it via email, I would commit to posting back a summary report when it was all done, so others could benefit from your / our work.
A detailed parts list with a supplier or internet outlet for them would be great. Any other bits and bobs I’d need could be called out too, plus whatever else you think of. I remind you that I design and build my own vacuum-tube guitar amps, so I should be able to pull off a retrofit / modification like this.
If you can make a first pass stab at the “Betty Crocker cookbook� list of ingredients, where to get ‘em, and the procedure, I’ll order the stuff and do the mod then flesh out the instruction and post ‘em back here so anyone with a solder iron, a few basic hand tools, and a little bit of skillz would be able to follow it, all props to you by the way.
I think we have a spare Crown XLS-202 power amp in the band room that we could use for the new Highs (the new “robo-horns� in the S115V) :-) , leaving the Mackie amp for the new Mids (the original 15’s in the S115V), and the Crown amp stays on the one Peavey SP218 sub. Does this sound like a decent plan, given the gear we have? If not, just give a recommendation for a new High amp. “Champaign taste on a beer budget� gear would be good. I only say Crown 202 since I kind of know that amp, the price is right, I’ve had a few, and they’ve never died or let me down in the past when running stage monitors – they are what they are. And I don’t know any better at this point, but I am learning from you guys!
The 202 also pass the “you wouldn’t want to drop one on your willie� test, unlike the little lightweight no-cooling-fan digital 1U wonders now on the market … only $250 USD delivered to my door for a new Crown power amp that looks and feels like a real amp ... that works for me. Anyway, I digress …
After the upcoming Yama’ mods under your guidance: 2x5 setup – Stereo Highs and Mids with mono-subs. Yea, that’s the ticket …
Thanks,
- Jeff S.
Now that I have most of my band’s original “nightmare gear setup issues� straightened out, I would like to repair the two Yamaha S115V cabinets they blew out before I signed on, in the manner of your FAQ post below:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1081
I took a quick listen to one of them and yep, the horn is gone. I presume this is the case on the other one as well. I also presume the 15� speakers in both cabs are fine … of course I would confirm this during the repair. So …
Could you give me a list of the parts you used for your rebuild, plus any other info that would help? We could do this either via email or here on the forum – your call. If you want to do it via email, I would commit to posting back a summary report when it was all done, so others could benefit from your / our work.
A detailed parts list with a supplier or internet outlet for them would be great. Any other bits and bobs I’d need could be called out too, plus whatever else you think of. I remind you that I design and build my own vacuum-tube guitar amps, so I should be able to pull off a retrofit / modification like this.
If you can make a first pass stab at the “Betty Crocker cookbook� list of ingredients, where to get ‘em, and the procedure, I’ll order the stuff and do the mod then flesh out the instruction and post ‘em back here so anyone with a solder iron, a few basic hand tools, and a little bit of skillz would be able to follow it, all props to you by the way.
I think we have a spare Crown XLS-202 power amp in the band room that we could use for the new Highs (the new “robo-horns� in the S115V) :-) , leaving the Mackie amp for the new Mids (the original 15’s in the S115V), and the Crown amp stays on the one Peavey SP218 sub. Does this sound like a decent plan, given the gear we have? If not, just give a recommendation for a new High amp. “Champaign taste on a beer budget� gear would be good. I only say Crown 202 since I kind of know that amp, the price is right, I’ve had a few, and they’ve never died or let me down in the past when running stage monitors – they are what they are. And I don’t know any better at this point, but I am learning from you guys!
The 202 also pass the “you wouldn’t want to drop one on your willie� test, unlike the little lightweight no-cooling-fan digital 1U wonders now on the market … only $250 USD delivered to my door for a new Crown power amp that looks and feels like a real amp ... that works for me. Anyway, I digress …
After the upcoming Yama’ mods under your guidance: 2x5 setup – Stereo Highs and Mids with mono-subs. Yea, that’s the ticket …
Thanks,
- Jeff S.
0
Comments
http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/product ... cific=2011
This little baby will get up and HAUL ASS! and sound FAR better than the original...(the diaphragm alone for the Yamaha drivers is $20 more than the WHOLE P Audio DRIVER! you screw the old driver off ( righty tighty.. lefty loosey ) and screw on the new driver...
The rest is pretty straight forward... eliminate the crossover...put a pair of NL4's on the back of the speaker, parallel one to the other, wire pins 1+ and 1- to the woofer, and pins 2+ and 2- to the horn driver minding polarity of course. voulix!
As to the amp question.. want lighter and smaller..I just posted in another thread that Peavey has come out with a new line of amps that have turned the audio world on it's ear.. get this...7 LBS
I think that covers it!
G
G
You also said “…As to the amp question.. want lighter and smaller …�. I see you are excited about the new Peavey amps, they interest me too – I’ll read your other post later, but I have that spare Crown XLS-202 free to use now – it is literally a spare that could be pressed into service. Granted it is heavy and all compared to those new wonderamps, but would this Crown be an appropriate or adequate amp to drive the new “robo-horns? In other words, is it too much power, or is it OK electrically but just big and clunky?
The datasheet spec for the XLS-202 says 145 Watts per side into 8 Ohms, and 300 Watts per side into 4 Ohms. Power per side into 16 Ohms is not listed but we could guestimate a de-rating down from 145W per side I suppose. Is that why you recommended the 16 ohm version driver – less power dissipated in the horn (P = V squared divided by R) so it’s safer for the new guy to drive?
That SN-D44.16 has a Power Rating of 60W RMS, with a Sensitivity of 106db – I presume that this is SPL at 1m with 1W input. I see the 8 Ohm version has the same power and Sensitivity rating – it’s just an 8 ohm load, so more power would be dissipated in it for a given amp drive level as compared to the 16.
So, after you confirm 16 vs 8 ohm, I’ll get a few on order and see how it goes. Also, a “thumbs up� or “thumbs down� call on the Crown XLS-202 will decide if I need to tell the fellas we need to kick in some more bucks for another amp. Left to my own devices, I’d say our spare Crown is close enough for Rock and Roll – safer into the 16 ohm load but OK into the 8 with some restraint, but I’ll take the wise counsel given out here from the experts.
G
I like your idea of going ahead and retrofitting all four cabinets with your “robo-horns� and having the cabs setup for bi-amping with Speakons. I’ll be doing this wounded pair first. You were dead on with recommending the 16 Ohm HF Drivers, because that what is currently installed – and I presume they are OEM components. Oh Yea, it’s only going to be $45 instead of $104 per cabinet! … nice! :-) I plan to order four of them tomorrow.
The OEM units are marked “JAY2061� and “16 ohms�. The entire thing is held by two bolts onto the ABS plastic horn assembly, with about 3� spacing for the two bolt holes. Popped one unit off, and the horn opening looks to be 1�. Here’s the datasheet for the P Audio ones, they look to be a drop-in just like you said, except the electrical connections appear different – I currently have those “spade lug / push-on jobbies� on the OEM diaphragms, but something else looks to be on the P Audio units – “gold plated Push’ ???:
http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/images/SN-D44.pdf
For completeness here, the 15� Woofers are 8 Ohm units. All internal cab connections are made with those “spade lug / push-on jobbies�.
First new problem:
The connector plates are steel and I want Speakon connectors on the older cabinet as well, but I do not wish to punch 1� diameter holes in a steel plate. Been there, done that during amp retrofits to add a tube socket or two … IMO punching big holes in sheet steel is a below average experience, so …
Do you have a source for “replacement jack plates� for this cabinet so I can easily retrofit the older cabs with Speakons and set them up like I will have with the newer-style S115V cabs? – biamp setup with two Speakons in parallel with 1’s to the woofer and 2’s to the horns. I have detailed measurements of the jack plates if that would help – but hopefully these plates are common enough that you know exactly what size they are and where to source some new ones, so I’ll save the bandwidth here. I REALLY don’t want to only have two 1/4" TS phono jacks for bi-amp connections … it would be way too easy for someone to hook it up backwards and run the Mid amps into the Horns … I can imagine what would happen next … bad juju …
Second new problem:
In the past, I’ve tried to find the proper sized “spade lug / push-on� connectors to hook up speakers in my guitar cabs when I’ve played the swap-speakers-and-listen games. The two sizes I could find at the local auto parts house did not fit, one was too big and one was too small, so I just said “stuff it� and soldered wires onto the tabs and went onto the next task. I’d really like to use the proper push-ons here and make a proper harness from scratch and not cannibalize the existing stuff, so …
Do you have a source for the different sized “spade lug / push-on jobbies� used in these standard speaker applications? Sizes and part numbers would be very cool. From their datasheets, I’ve figured out the ones for the Speakons, but the ones for the spade lugs on the speaker / diaphragms (and possibly the woofer – I only eyeballed them down in the bowels of the cab) look are a little bigger … and appear to be of the size that stumped me before. It would be nice to have the right parts. These connectors are probably pretty cheap, so it’s worth it to me to spend the cost of a Happy Meal to buy a small handful of each possible size you run across in your travels to never be bothered with this issue again.
I believe I‘ve figured out the Speakon portion of the puzzle: Two new “NL4MP� chassis connectors each for the older cabs (Mouser Part #: 568-NL4MP) after I work out a new mounting plate, a bunch of “NLFASTON� push-ons to wire out a new harness from the Speakons inside the cab (Mouser Part #: 568-NL-FASTON), and then some “NL4FC� 4 pole cable connectors for the external harness wiring (Mouser Part #: 568-NL4FC).
Then I get to roll my own Speakon cables, right? … Hey, now I’m feeling like a sound guy and not just a d@^% guitar player :-)
Third new problem: The 1/4" jacks on the faceplate look like good old standard Switchcraft #11’s except they have “flat tabs� inside the cab for their own mating “push-ons� instead of the solder tab / hole on an actual Switchcraft #11. The tab is about 15/64� wide with a hole about 1/8� from the end. If you know this connector, do you know the part number of it’s mating “push-on�? … I might as well add that to the order too. Oh cr@p … you don’t imagine a regular 1/4" push-on would work here? … I just thought of that … guess I should have tried one when I had the cab open. Grrrrr ….
Sorry for the long post.
Dennis
http://www.speakerrepair.com/mm5/mercha ... kplate_cab
You can buy premade speaker cables..
http://www.zzounds.com/item--CBISNN14
you can look for the best price online...
Or buy the wire 4 conductor 14 gauge wire and NL4 connectors and make your own.
G
First off … Four of the P Audio horn drivers are on order … only $211.48 total including shipping … jeez, you can’t beat that with a stick.
“… use a Greenlee SlugBuster to make holes for Speakons in the existing steel plate … �
That is one possibility, but I’ll look for another route. My chassis punches are the manual versions – put a socket wrench on a draw-bar bolt head that pulls the biting end thru the sheet-metal and start twisting away. They’re not the pro hydraulic versions where you just squeeze the trigger and watch it all work like a dream. I wish.
My closest Greenlee-clone does 7/8� holes in standard chassis aluminum plate just fine, but going thru sheet steel is another matter … no matter what the manual says the tool can do … and life is too short to bring that sort of self-afflicted abuse on myself.
I just KNEW the right part was out there somewhere … that’s why I asked.
My box’s opening in the wood is roughly 4 5/16� wide by 2 11/16 high, and the jack plate has a recessed pocket about 4 1/4� x 2 1/2� in size to nicely to drop down into the hole. I swear I’d seen this sized plate on a lot of gear before … I figured someone has to make a replacement ... a nice metal one … not some of the ABS plastic stuff that can get broken easily.
Oh well, it doesn’t hurt to ask … a quick Google search for “replacement jack plate speakon� yielded up several possible choices. The closest one looks to be this one:
http://www.penn-elcom.com/Print.asp?PN=D0604
The Black one is p/n D0604K, and the matching air-seal gasket is p/n D0607G. I plan on getting 4ea from Parts Express for about $5 a set. Done.
BTW, since most folks reading this are probably gear-heads anyway, if you want to take 3 minutes of your life and watch a video of their automated assembly line factory knocking out products, please enjoy the following link … I thought this video was pretty well done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqenfFh3 ... r_embedded
If I wouldn’t have found a suitable jack plate, I think I would just have gone with drilling two holes in the wooden cabinet with a spade bit and mounting the Neutrik “NL4MPR� 4 pole Round G-Series Chassis Connector. Four of those will be ordered anyway from Parts Express as a “Murphy’s Law Fallback Exercise�.
For chassis connectors, I changed my mind and am going with the high-current Speakon version NL4MP-UC. They appear to fit the same opening in a jack plate as the standard ones, and are only a few cents more. I couldn’t find the “NLFASTON� push-on jobbies at PE for the standard ones, and I read that a ‘standard 3/16� ‘ push-on fits too loose on a “regular� Speakon terminal, so I’m going with the “UC� version since it supposedly takes the standard 1/4" push-on connectors just fine. I hope they are right.
As far as the previous request for “help with push-ons for standard speaker terminals�, I’m just picking up one of these “grab-bags� at PE … it’s a little more than a Happy Meal, but worth it IMO if it minimizes the frustration of not having the right $#@^ little pushon someday.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=095-900
Maybe something in there will be useful ... that seems to be it for old business.
Now here’s a new one …
I’ve never “rolled my own� Speakon cable assemblies before, so does anyone have any recommendations on some raw cable stock to make a decent 4-conductor cable assembly, and also maybe a beefy 2-conductor cable that I will eventually use for my subs after I retrofit them with Speakons too. What do you use, what do you like, and why? If I can add some wire and some NL4FC’s onto my Parts Express order this evening, that would be OUTSTANDING. If it’s a “buy or build� choice, I’m usually a DIY guy when it makes sense to do so.
So … can anyone advise on some raw cable stock?
Thanks. We’ll see how all this comes together …
- Jeff
http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/ ... sku=336621
The NL4FC cable-end connector’s “Mechanical specs� say “Cable O.D. = 5 to 15mm, Wire size (max) 12 AWG, Wiring style is “screw type terminals or soldering�. OK, so anything smaller than 12 AWG should be fine (like 13, 14, 16, … etc.) – jacket size between 5 and 15mm – and we can either screw-in or solder each conductor.
I wondered what the Beldon equivalent for this 2 and 4-conductor stuff was, but before I found out, I found these guys:
http://www.audiopile.net/products/BULK_ ... ABLE.shtml
The have bulk 4 Conductor 13AWG Cable at $1.00/ft. plus shipping, and your 2 Conductor 13AWG Speaker Cable at $0.60/ft. plus shipping. These seem like pretty good prices, compared to the Musician’s Friend stuff. But it gets better …
The sell a premade Speakon 4-conductor cable assembly made with genuine NL4FC ends and the above cable stock at crazy good prices – see below:
5ft., $17.00 ea.
10ft., $22.00 ea.
15ft., $27.00 ea.
20ft., $32.00 ea.
25ft., $37.00 ea.
30ft., $42.00 ea.
50ft., $62.00 ea.
75ft., $87.00 ea.
100ft., $112.00 ea.
http://www.audiopile.net/products/Speak ... et_2.shtml
Wow, you can buy any of those premade cables for only $12 more than the raw cable cost, and that includes two NL4FC ends! And if you only want 2-conductor cables, the prices for those are even better than above. I don’t see how it even makes sense to build one myself as long as I wanted one of the stock lengths.
Has anyone used Audiopile, or this product before? Is there any better “bang for the buck� raw cable stock or finished 4-conductor Speakon cables out there?
This might be sacrilege to some folks, but it is my opinion that if I am using the proper gauged stranded copper wire for the job at hand, the individual conductors are nicely sheathed in a good outer insulation / barrier layer, and if the joints are correctly soldered or assembled in an appropriate plug, then that's all I need in a speaker cable … the crazy prices for some fancy cable brands out there kind of crack me up.
HOWEVER,
that wire is $1.00/ft (200' $200)
the wire I showed you is (250' $129)
that's $.52/ft
I guess that might seem like a lot of wire, but if you think of it this way...2/50' pyle cables ($69 + shipping) so $138 + shipping, I suspect maybe $20 so worst case scenario $158...
My suggestion..$129 Free shipping, 4 NL4LJ $10 shipped(much easier to work with)
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/N ... JX-/NA4LJX
$129 + $40= $169
AND you have 150' of cable for doing your subs, monitors, etc...
The wire is supple, not too large, easy to coil, looks professional, and I don't like to have cables that are so damn short everyone is always tripping on them... get 50 foot lengths and run them so they are out of the way...THAT's how the pro's do it!
I read about your retrofit of the S115V’s with interest, because I have a pair of them. I power them with a QSC PLX1804. I can understand installing better HF drivers, but I’m confused about the need to bi-amp them. What exactly are you gaining by doing that? SPL? Changing the crossover frequency? They are just 2-way full range boxes, after all. It seems a bit of overkill to have to use two separate amps for the highs and mids on a SOS speaker.
What am I missing?
Regards,
Bob
1. The passive crossover components sap power and in cheaper crossovers (like the yami's) lead to phase differences, peaky frequency response and loss of calrity.
2. The efficiency differences in the horn and woofer require power sapping components that will allow you to have FAR more output..
3. With the driverack controlling the two components separately you will be able to use the 3 PEQ's on the hi outs, and 2 PEQ's on the mid outs and the 28 band eq you can really make those boxes come alive, and even better with the NEO P audio drivers since you can lower the crossover point (since you have a 15 in driver whose beam point (the point frequency wise where the speaker stops being linear and starts beaming frequencies) is 1052 hz. This makes the midrange of the speaker much more difficult to get clarity from. ( a 12" midrange goes up to 1335hz before beaming)
4.The interaction in the xover point causes clarity issues
5. You can do driver alignment for the time offset correction.
Did I mention FAR greater output!
Suffice it to say it makes a HUGE difference when done properly!
Gadget
I am always looking for more clarity. More output is not really that important, as we play mostly small places.
Thanks for explaining it to me.
DRA
DRA
You'll then balance the horns and woofer with the channel gain controls.. and the channel one control will be WAY down.
With that amp you'd then plug the 4 conductor speakon into channel 1 and the other into the modified Yammi's and through to the other speaker if you have 2.
And that the driverack would make you smile BiGTIME
G
Would the Driverack greatly improve the sound of the stock speakers with no mods? If so, which Driverack would you recommend? I do plan on getting a couple of small subs down the road, and that would help with that.
I'm trying to keep my rig simple. We're only a duo.
G
The 4 HF Drivers have just shipped … I am really getting stoked! I need to get the other bits and bobs on order so I can make some new jack plates and hook all this stuff up. That brings me back to cables …
The raw wire stock you linked to is only “2 conductor� stuff, unless MF and Horizon messed up on the links and showed something else: The pictures show 2 conductors, the datasheet shows two conductors. I need four conductor cables to make the bi-amp cables running to each cab; 1+ and 1- to the woofer, 2+ and 2- to the horn. All in one cable run.
Is your cable actually 2-conductor stuff? If so, that cable stock won’t work for my bi-amp cable assembly needs as I understand it here. Also, if someone is looking for 2-conductor stuff, the Audiopile price is only $0.60 per foot – that’s pretty close to the MF price you linked to, and someone could ask for only what they need.
I might like the MF stuff for standard 2C cables as I will be redoing the monitor runs later, but I need to make or buy some 4wire cables now so I can run a single 4C Speakon cable assembly to each cab. Audiopile is still on top for 4C stuff, unless they are bumped off. BTW, I plan on buying one of those blank 1U or 2U plates that have the holes punched for Speakons and XLR jacks to make my own little amp patch-bay mounted to the back case-rails for this … load up some chassis mount connectors so the Left Mid and Left Hi side of the two amps run to one Speakon jack on the plate, same for the Rights, so I can just punch in with two 4C cables and be done – run one to the Left Yamaha and one to the Right. Actually, I am conflicted about having both 2C and 4C cables in use – what if someone grabs a 2C cable to hook up my biamp cab and then wonders “Hey, why can’t I hear any Highs?� I’ll worry about that later …
Also, I don’t understand the reference to the NA4LJX gender-bender “Speakon To 1/4 Jack� Adaptors. I could see having a few of these (and also a reverse gender-bender version too) on hand to bail someone out of a spot if they roll into someone else’s setup and have to hook up incompatible gear on the fly in a panic or something, but what would it be doing for me here?
Hello Bob,
I’m not Gadget, but since I kicked this beehive to get it started … the way I see it, this might be “overkill�, but the word KILL is still in overkill :-)
I had typed a little bit here for you, but Gadget just said it better than I could have said anything at this point.
What I can add though, is that when I listen to this S115 as it is now, I hear less “sizzle� and more “grunt� – sorry, I don’t know how to explain that any better and it might just be due to my lack of EQ abilities. Or maybe this is what this 15� plus the factory horn just sounds like. I do know that I want a little more presence in the guitars / vocals and more overall sizzle, and I have not been able to find it in the EQ. Since these horns are handling everything above about 1.7k for me, I’ll take all the help I can get to make our present “budget gear� sound as good as it can sound. Plus it sounds like a fun exercise.
Also, what is a “SOS� speaker?
Thanks for the info Jeff. I'm thinking about replacing the horn drivers like you have and getting the Driverack PA+ that Gadget recommended. I'm happy with the sound of the speakers now, but if they can be improved, it's a good thing.
As for the Driverack, we play a lot of different sized venues, and are usually setting up with patrons in the place. Ringing out the system is always a problem. It would be nice to be able to optimize the PA quickly.
As for "SOS" - that's shorthand for "Speaker On A Stick), i.e. stands.
Bob, maybe Dra remembers the guy with the Peavey setup we did for him, he was kind of offended by the "witch" reference, but he bi-amped a pair of peavey SP2's and he was blown away at how great they sounded in the end, and he was a REAL novice!
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1151
Took nearly 3 months of coaching and phone calls to get him squared away, but he was blown away by the results:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1151
You can follow the whole saga if you want but if you follow the instructions you won't even believe they are the same speakers!
G
Gadget,
Are the instructions for this mod included in your FAQ section, or do you have a link to them? The links in this post just talk about the mods - no instructions.
Thanks,
Bob
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1081
G