These would make SUCH huge difference in your speakers! I sure would! and that's a steal price wise, you would pay MORE for the eminence 2002... :shock:
I have Four of those Yamaha's across the front stage as monitors. You really need a DriveRack to get the flat response necessary to get the clarity out of them. They are far from FLAT stock. Those speakers need to be told what to do. With the DriveRack and a measurement mic -- you can get them smoother for sure. If you ever get a DR -- let me know and you can try the tunings I came up with using Smaart and a measurement mic set at head height on axis. Amazing is all I can say. If you use them for FOH -- no biggie -- I think the tunings will still do you good. A lot of guys think they don't need a DriveRack and all they need is a cheap analog crossover. What they don't understand is what Gadget always stresses...... it is the "Tool Set" available to you for a fraction of the price. You get like 5,6,7 - 10 pieces of rack gear in one unit. Furthermore, what you really need is the Parametric EQ's. You want to use those instead of graphic eq's. The "Delay" function is vital too. That is where you time align your mids and highs (If you bi-amp). I have seen a live trace fall flat on its face because of the alignment being off and it is next to impossible to EQ your way out of it. A simple time alignment adjustment pops the trace right out of the "Valley of death" and makes for a very smooth transition across the crossover. My good friend Dennis says it is all about the crossover.
Thanks man. We're moving to a new location, which will hopefully provide us with more work. I plan to expand the PA when I get some more bread, and i will definitely look you up for your settings on the DR when I do.
Sure -- would love to help. G - I grabbed a few of those P-Audio drivers today. Thanks for catching the special. I would have loved to get those D.A.S. tops BUT for now -- I will try to upgrade the horn drivers in my JBL's and see what I get from there. My JBL tops can easily be used onstage as a monitor I suppose when the time comes.
Dr. J: “Quote�:
“…I have Four of those Yamaha's across the front stage as monitors. You really need a DriveRack to get the flat response necessary to get the clarity out of them. …� + “…try the tunings I came up with using Smaart and a measurement mic set at head height on axis …� + “…The "Delay" function is vital too. That is where you time align your mids and highs (If you bi-amp). …� + “…I grabbed a few of those P-Audio drivers today. …�
Yes Dr. J, could you provide the tunings you came up with for the stock Yamaha’s! Either here, or I can provide my email address – your call.
My P Audio drivers just came in the mail today. Now I am waiting on my Parts Express and Audiopile orders to show up before I’ll have all the bits and bobs needed to retrofit the cabs and handle the support tasks.
If all the orders don’t show up in time for our gig next weekend, then the Yamahas will go out again with their stock drivers. Gadget has already given some killer advice that has improved them considerably, but anything specific that you would be willing to share would be much appreciated too!
And if you were going to put one of those P Audio drivers in one of your S115’s and reshoot it using Smaart and the measurement mic, could you please share those results as well? That would be outstanding … beyond words.
I would love to have the level of diagnostic equipment you guys already have, but for now, I only have the DRPA and a Radio Shack SPL meter and my ears – plus some good music CDs as well as the “audio test CD� linked to from the FAQ. I’m not the sound guy, I’m the guitar player in the band that only gets to set the system up during soundcheck … when I’m either not playing or am on the wireless. Assistance here from someone that actually has one of these “robo-horn retrofitted Yamies� plus the gear and skills to really align and flatten the response would be greatly appreciated.
Hey Jeff -- I can post what I got for tunings on the Yamaha's. I never bi-amped my monitors (yet) so there isn't any alignment to deal with since they have internal XO's in them. Switching horn drivers will change the response for sure - just like G said but for the woofer -- we can improve on that with what I have. Right now I have the Eminence psd 2002 horn driver in my monitors. I also have those in my FOH system so the P-Audio drivers I ordered (I got them yesterday and they only sent me the diaphragms!) will go in my FOH horns. If I really like them -- then I will do all the monitors as well. Make sure you check the polarity on all of your speakers. Have you done that yet? It is in all the READ ME FIRST or the FAQ section. I found one of my horns wired backwards. Not just because someone reversed the wires but because it came that way from the factory. Make sure all of that is good.
From your posts, I see that you have S115V’s as monitors, you are planning to try these P Audio drivers to retrofit your “FOH horns� first, then if this goes well you will “… do all the (S115V) monitors as well …�. What cabinets are you using for FOH? It sounds like they might not be the S115V … Just curious I suppose.
It would be fantastic if you eventually decide to “upgraded your S115V monitors� as well, reshot their response, and posted that too. That would be exactly what I will have as FOH.
Yes, I will be verifying the polarity of the entire system as you and Gadget have recommended – that’s on the “to-do list�. The Mains will be handled as I repair them. BTW, the two S115V’s I’m doing now were wired OK from the factory – guess the band got lucky … right up to the point where they blew them up because they didn’t know what they were doing :-) .
I grabbed a few extra XLR panel-mount connectors of both genders and plan to make (among other things …) a little “XLR polarity-swapper breakout box� so I can easily invert the polarity on the XLR send going to the Horn Amp by just flipping a switch and then use this to check the polarity of the cabinet … send a sine wave that falls in the crossover region then flip the switch to “invert� and see if that way shows a drop in SPL and sounds worse. I’ll make sure to use a “break-before-make� switch. This breakout box seems like another good thing to have in the toolbox since I don’t have a convenient way to do this on the fly.
I will look forward to seeing your tunings for your stock S115’s now, and HOPEFULLY again after you retrofit them with the new P Audio drivers and reshoot! Also, I hope they fix their error and send you the entire driver units like they should have done in the first place – before they run out them at that price!
Yes, I will be verifying the polarity of the entire system as you and Gadget have recommended – that’s on the “to-do list�. The Mains will be handled as I repair them. BTW, the two S115V’s I’m doing now were wired OK from the factory
Let's be clear....when the factory reverses the polarity of a component, it's part of the design and is intended to align the phase of the two components. Phase does not equal polarity. Going into the speaker and just flipping the polarity of a component because you feel it is backwards is bad...the entire set of filters has to be redesigned and realigned as well to accomplish what you want to do. You would be doing a portion of that job by biamping a mid/hi cabinet and using LR24 or BUT24 filters but if you were biamping a 3 way cabinet and one of the components reads "out of polarity", leave it that way.
My foh tops are old JBL TR 126's that I put better speakers in. I went with the
Eminence psd 2002 for the horns because you can get the entire assembly for about $54.00. They were waaay cheaper then JBL's replacement driver. Yeah -- I mean -- if I am going to upgrade any horn driver -- I will start with my FOH first. I am certain the P-Audios will be better by far. There is no doubt I will be re-doing my system as soon as the weather breaks. I would actually like to do it when the temperature and weather in general (NO WIND) is close to what it would be like in an actual bar setting. Wind is terrible on your efforts to get things set right because it messes with the trace so much. I can always do just the horns and give you an idea on what that would be and you just program it in to your DR. I will have already given you the woofer settings by then. Just try what I already have and then A / B it. Go with what you like the best. I will have to get into my DR and get you the settings. Hopefully by Monday I will send them to you.
Hey Jeff, Dennis just pointed out something that I guess I may have mislead you. Sometimes or maybe alot of times the factory inverts the horns on purpose. Just make sure all of your horns are consistent with each other. It is when you have one horn wired one way and the next horn wired a different way that you have to ask yourself -- ok -- what is the right way. This happened to me with my monitors -- which I just went with what the factory labeled them as. Positive to positive. As long as you are not bi-amping you don't have to worry about it so much. It turns out that some horn drivers require less delay to align with the woofer if they are inverted. If you used a polarity checker on them and was determined to wire them "the right way" you may find that it takes alot of delay to align them with your woofer. I did it both ways and ran thru the entire set up process (Dennis tool me thru it) and I stored them. When I got to the gig I asked three different people what they thought as I switched in and out of the two different options and everyone including myself agreed that polarity inverted horns (for my system) sounded better. I didn't tell anyone what I did either. So I guess manufacturers already know this an may actually be doing you a favor that you don't know. But for now -- you don't have to worry about this so much except make sure they are at least consistent with each other. However, if one of those 15's is inverted and "Sucking in" then I would say there is a mistake somewhere and I really don't think the manufacturer did it intentionally. I really hope I didn't confuse you. This stuff is crazy.
Yes, “…Phase does not equal polarity …�. I got that.
I used the phrase “… verifying the polarity …� here to mean “making sure the wires are not crossed in my cabinet�. I believe I followed the rest of your post as well. BTW, I wouldn’t just go into an assembly and flip the polarity of any component because I “felt it is backwards� without first knowing exactly what I was doing and why I was doing it. Nobody else should do this either. That is very good advice to post.
Phase in the Frequency domain can be correlated to Delay in the Time domain … done this as an EE many times, but this topic is beyond the scope of this conversation, and I bet I could learn a lot about hands-on FFT / audio RTA / convolution / impulse response / etc. from you (and the other folks on here as well) … hopefully I will be lucky enough to do just that some day in the future. I’m a newbie when it comes to setting up and running a live audio system, but I’m not a newbie when it comes to electronics in general and filter design in particular.
I am just bi-amping a mid/hi cabinet here, and I plan on using LR24 for both crosses as per the general consensus --- LR24 -- 4-pole filter, so 4x90 degree phase-shift outside the pass-band and both signals behaving “similarly� in the crossover region, so this setup should “turn me around just fine� where it counts. Here, I will just be verifying that the _wires aren’t bunged up_ and the _polarity on the Drivers were correctly marked by the Mfg._ as follows:
Verify a 9V battery drives the Woofer’s cone “out� when connected “+ to +� and “- to –“, then wire the cab,
Woofer’s “+� or Red terminal to Speakon “1+�,
Woofer’s “-� or Plain terminal to Speakon “1-�,
Horn’s “+� or Red terminal to Speakon “2+�,
Horn’s “-� or Black terminal to Speakon “2-�,
Then after it is all wired up, make sure it sounds “right� when it’s reproducing a sine wave that’s frequency lies in the x-over region when the polarity of the signal going to the Horn Amp is unchanged, then make sure it sounds “wrong� when it’s polarity is flipped by having the breakout box “cross-wire pins 2 and 3� in the XLR run.
I hope that makes sense. If not, I am open to feedback … forgive the pun :-)
This is the only way I’d know how to do it here with the gear I have. I have long since stopped trusting manufacturer marks on guitar speakers and have often used the “9V battery trick� to verify the speaker’s “polarity� in my cabinets. I can’t do that with horns since there is nothing to “see popping out at me�. The above steps seem like a reasonable exercise to me, since I don’t trust what I cannot measure or hear – regardless of what terminal is painted Red on a driver.
All the parts required to do the retrofit on the cabs is supposed to arrive on Saturday. I’m really having a blast with this stuff. Thanks to everyone for putting up with me. Maybe someday, I can return the favor and help someone out here.
Hello Dr, J.
No worries, I think we’re good … you didn't confuse me. I really appreciate the input, but you did just give me some more to think about. Yea, this stuff is crazy, but when it all works, it probably sounds sooooooo good. I really want to get there.
Quote:�… As long as you are not bi-amping you don't have to worry about it so much …�
But I will be removing the factory passive x-over so I WILL BE bi-amping. I will be wired direct and straight through to the woofer and horn in the cabinets. No more response from the old x-over to worry about any more, like if they had a 2-pole passive filter than puts the phase “180° outâ€? outside the pass-band, so they just go in and hook the horn up “reversedâ€? to add another 180° of phase shift to get us back in phase … something like that.
Everyone,
I don’t have the gear to check the actual acoustic phase response, I can only hook it straight-up and then hear it work and adjust what I can then hope for the best. I am very concerned that without the proper gear to verify the phase alignment after choosing the “polarity� to wire up and the “Delay values� to try in the DRPA, this is all just a stab in the dark. If I may paraphrase Dr. J., “if the phase alignment is hosed up, then someone just can’t EQ themselves out of that mess�.
This brings me back to the Delay parameters of the Low, Mid, and High paths that I CAN control in the DRPA. Now that I will be going 2x5 (mono sub + stereo mids + stereo highs) with three paths now through the digital stuff, if I set the Delay parameter of one of them to Zero, I can now adjust the Delay of the other TWO to try and bring the phase / delay response of all three channels back into alignment. I can follow the FAQ thread about measuring the relative distance of each driver face in the cab and using this to alter the delay numbers a bit, but here’s the rub …
I know I only have 10m to play with and that should do it all if I “choose wisely�. I’ve see the 7.5ms value bantered about here for someone using LR24 to cross, but ONE delay number only handles the time relationship between TWO signals. I will now have THREE, presuming there is no difference in the Left and Right channels.
So if I make the “correct� choice and assign a delay of Zero to one path through the x-over, then I will need TWO delay values so I can set the relationship of the remaining TWO paths with respect to the first one. For instance, if I choose Zero delay for the Highs, then I will need one delay number for the Mids and another possibly different delay value for the Lows. And if I choose the WRONG one and set it’s delay to Zero, then I might not be able to fix this since we cannot “predict the future� and have negative delays in other paths here to catch up – or have enough delay to get us back around the bend.
If I had to guess (which I HATE to do by the way), I would put the High’s and Mid’s Delay at Zero and the Low’s Delay at 7.5ms since I’ve only heard that one delay value being discussed – then fudge these with small values that the physical offsets of the drivers in the mid/hi cab will be bringing to the party.
I really need a FFT / RTA setup like you folks have … that Smaart application looks pretty cool … then I could see this stuff for myself.
Question:
Does anyone have the actual individual propagation delays thru a DRPA for a 2x5 crossing with LR24? Just pick the “correct� path and define it as having Zero Delay, then give the possibly different delay values for the remaining two paths, each path’s Delay is to be with respect to the path you defined as having Zero Delay. Two numbers. That sounds like something that should be known with so many folks having that Smaart setup.
If I had to guess (which I HATE to do by the way), I would put the High’s and Mid’s Delay at Zero and the Low’s Delay at 7.5ms since I’ve only heard that one delay value being discussed – then fudge these with small values that the physical offsets of the drivers in the mid/hi cab will be bringing to the party.
I really need a FFT / RTA setup like you folks have … that Smaart application looks pretty cool … then I could see this stuff for myself.
Question:
Does anyone have the actual individual propagation delays thru a DRPA for a 2x5 crossing with LR24? Just pick the “correct� path and define it as having Zero Delay, then give the possibly different delay values for the remaining two paths, each path’s Delay is to be with respect to the path you defined as having Zero Delay. Two numbers. That sounds like something that should be known with so many folks having that Smaart setup.
Jeff -- Let's do this. After your Yamaha's are biamped -- check the polarity on your woofers. Make sure they move outwards when hit with a positive pulse. Your horns........ Just wire them as the manufacturer has them labeled. Without a polarity checking device -- all you can do is what the manufacturer says. Once that is done -- you need to put into the DR the parametric settings I will send to you. Since I have not bi-amped YET (Got more important things first) I have NO idea what the delay settings would be. I know it has been said that there is a 7.5ms propagation delay thru the DR but I just could never confirm it with Smaart the way Mike Kovach describe it. I PM'd him once and he wrote back something that I have long forgotten BUT it still didn't make any sense. I'm not saying he is wrong because he is a very smart guy. I just don't know how he did it or came up with it. DBX (Corporate) has never addressed this either or explained it so I don't know what the TRUE deal is. I guess I can email Mike Hunter and ask him. He has sent me some pretty cool demonstrations before. My delay settings are very different thru my system and didn't take very much to align the drivers unless I am behind or in front of the cycle. I don't think it is wrong. Dennis helped me set it up and has viewed my traces. Let me write more here soon. I got to go run a few errands and I will back later.
One more quick thing....... If you have a USB interface with TWO mic inputs and a measurement mic PLUS the 30 day Demo of Smaart I could walk you thru the basics just like Dennis stated. No problem. You will learn so much so fast by doing it. You will see how it is a bad idea to randomly turn your amp knobs up or down without knowing what is really going on. You are actually raising or lowering the acoustic XO point which relies on the delay alignment to hold it intact. You would see first hand what a GEQ does to a frequency response just by moving the little slider. It is all amazing stuff and a true eye opener.
Yep, that’s the plan – verify the woofers pop out with a “+ to +� hit from a 9V, just believe the “Red and Black terminals� on the horn drivers for now, then eventually see if it all sounds right.
I’ll be looking forward to your PEQ settings. Since you’ve flattened the Yamahas and played with the system delay for Low, vs. High, could you add that info too? Your delay number would likely be closer than my stab in the dark.
Your settings will come in handy too, it is looking like I will be taking the original non-biamped set of S115V’s out this weekend since I’ll likely not have any time to play around with these modified cabinets before then, even if the rest of the stuff arrives today to finish the cabinet rebuild / re-rack / change the drop snake / make new patch-bays to support the Speakons ...
The rest of the band gear (racks, DRPA, amps / etc…) is out of town at and I only get to touch it once a week at rehearsal or maybe on the weekend if I can drive out and have a play-date with it.
Jeff -- I can't really give you any delay settings for your bi-amped yamaha's. But what I would do if i were in your situation where you don't have Smaart is to do this:
#1. Choose your XO point. EV has a booklet out there called the "Crossover Cookbook". Go to EV's site and download and read it. It should be located in the section that deals with there program called "RACE"..... it is EV's version of Smaart. They stress anything less than a 1" throat horn should never go below 2K & a 2" horn should never go below 1K. This may open up a debate but that is just what they said and could be specific to EV speakers .... who knows. If I were you -- I would set your XO in your DR at 2.36K for the horn. Of course the upper end of that will just be "OUT". Set the Low pass on the woofer at 2.36k LR24. I wouldn't use a gap. I tried gaps a lot in the beginning but it always made the buildup over the XO decrease. That makes the response uneven across the most crucial part of your set up. After you set your delay -- your acoustic XO will land somewhere between 2.36k & 2.50k. Your DR XO is the electrical XO point and it doesn't mean your Acoustic XO point will match it. You can see this plain as day with a FFT program.
#2. Next, open the "DELAY" section of your DRPA & put these parametric settings in there:
Choose "BELL" for your parametric curve.
F1 = 224Hz, 5.5dB, Q= 3.41
F2 = 1.60K, 10.5dB, Q= 5.71
F3 = 3.35K, 10.0dB, Q= 9.55
Something just dawned on me. I use the DRPX for this and it only has three parametrics available for mids and highs. The DRPA has much more which would have helped to get the response flatter. Oh well, just go with the three i gave you. I also have the Yamaha monitor style cabs. do you have the same yamaha monitor style cab or is it the actual style made for FOH? Don't know if there is any difference in the two designs or not as far as volume goes. Just try those settings and see what you think. They had to be EQ'd alot to smooth them out. I personally don't like boosting anything if I don't have to BUT cutting instead of boosting wasn't correcting the response either. You have to keep in mind those cabs only cost $350 at best so they aren't really the best tops to use but they do work.
#3. as far as the delay settings go -- you can try to invert the signal and use a test tone to see if you can hear a "dip". I tried to do it that way but you only get about a minute of that awful sound before your ears finally decide it isn't worth pursuing. Put in some music you know real well and while it is playing -- delay your mid speaker to your horn. Listen real close........ if the volume rises & it seems that the music actually clears up or even sounds better ... try to find a "range" where this happens. This all has to happen within .04ms - .50ms. If you don't notice anything with this then set the mid delay back to ZERO and then engage the horn and start to delay it. The mid speaker could be on the subtractive side and that may be why you didn't hear anything so delay the horn to the mid instead. Try it the same way. If you notice better sound clarity / smoothness and a slight rise in volume -- go with that. This is all experimental by the way. You really need Smaart to do it correctly. Make sure all of your EQ's (Except parametrics) are off or set to flat. You may want to leave your channel strip EQ flat too at first. That may help you to hear deficiencies in the response. Well, that is all I can tell you for now. Just try it. If you go full range for the gig and your tops aren't bi-amped -- leave the delay OFF & just try the parametrics. After that use your channel strip EQ for ALL EQing and try to leave the GEQ alone. Let me know how it goes
The only problem I see with raising the frequency that high is that the 15" woofer starts to beam frequencies, meaning that it not only no longer exhibit omni directional characteristics, but instead of evenly distributing these they become "flashlight like". John Murray wrote:
If you’ve ever stood in front of a guitar amplifier or loudspeaker cabinet, then moved slightly to one side or the other and noticed a different sound, you have experienced this phenomenon.
This transition in a 15 happens at only 1052 hz, so everything over that frequency. While most speaker designs ignore this and remain somewhat acceptable, the vocal clarity region of a 15" woofer is not very broad, so the lower you can safely cross the better.
G
Yeah I can see that being an issue. It is really why I would like to go 4 - way with my system so I can distribute the spectrum better and keep the frequencies in there respective speakers better. I may try (in the mean time) to go a little lower with my highs since I got these new P-Audio drivers. They look like they are built very well and could handle it better than my cheapo's. If I have learned one thing from all you guys plus McCarthy's book: Everything is a trade off. You can benefit here but the downside is this........ OR you can shoot for this but you suffer here....... and then there is a MEYER SOUND SYSTEM which would be awesome but KILL you bank account.
I think I'd go with the d&b audiotechnik pocketbook destroyers... If you check out the top of line contenders they typically use multiple drivers in a three way config with the mids generally being horn loaded 8 or 10" drivers and a woofer. The 1" exit horns generally offer higher frequency response and greater linearity, but have lower power handling and lower max SPL...I know there is a NIGHT and day difference in my OAP 12" x 2" speakers and my Yorkville Elite dual 15" X 2" that have the same compression drivers. the midrange is soooo sweet...I will use the OAP's over the Yorkies EVERY time and twice on Sunday!
Hey Jeff - this may be helpful to you. When I first started all of this (actually I am a guitar player) I would run the auto EQ outdoors and then view the GEQ settings on my DR. I had trouble with selecting which frequencies to deal with and I had a hard time visualizing what was happening (like "Q") so I made up some GEQ Sheets. Each pass I made I would write down what the GEQ revealed. When I was done - I would then connect the dots. That is your TRACE. So you know what to do from there and it helps with visualizing your systems response and where to go next. It is very time consuming BUT it is all you can do for now.
I went to do the cab rebuilds last weekend after the gig was over (the gig went fine BTW with the unmodified FOH mains set - thanks for the EQ advice), and I found that besides each of the two “wounded� cabinets having fragged-up horns, one of these cabinets actually had a blown woofer as well; the voice coil on one of the 15’s was open and at least one cap in the passive xover was cooked – jeez, they really did the job on that one.
I went full speed ahead with the refit on the three remaining cabs and am looking forward to hearing them in action, but this new discovery has got me thinking … always a risky thing to do :-)
Recall that we have TWO sets of S115V’s (the two cabs that they hadn’t blown up yet, and the two that they had slammed). The “still-good set� right now is used in conjunction with a Peavey SP218 sub for our FOH in a 2x3 setup. The plan was when we are done with this round of horn retrofits, we’d have a set of bi-amped mains FOH with a sub in a 2x5 setup, and a “standby mains cabinet pair� that would probably just be kept as spares. But now, one of those spares has a blown 15� so at the very least, it would need a replacement woofer to ever be put back into service.
I know I could just leave that one cab with the blown 15 “out of service�, or just order a replacement 15� speaker for it, but here comes the crazy idea … what about doing something a little wacky with the spare pair if it might sound better …
What about cutting a baffle adapter (or finding an alternative on the market) and loading some good 12� drivers in the existing 15� spot? Sort of going all the way on the “robo-rebuild� concept with the 2nd set --- besides having better horn drivers and a bi-amp setup, having 12� speakers for the mids instead of the 15s? Is this a completely crazy and futile idea? Would we gain anything going to a 112 as opposed to a 115 cabinet here?
If anyone was willing to get all “Thiele & Small� on me, I could list the sizes of the two stock cabinets and the size of the ports on the existing 115 – but the datasheet is out in the open. I’ve always liked closed back guitar cabinets that had a little more internal volume than what is usually seen on standard 4x12s or 2x12s, but I don’t know how this would translate to PA speakers.
I’ve also thought that the present S115V with a Sub lacked something in the vocals … it seems kind of muddy to me. This might be due to the lack of proper setup / EQ expertise at the moment (haven’t had an auto-EQ session outdoors yet). Or maybe, this is just what a stereo 1x15�/horn with a 2x18� sub off to the side just sounds like. It’s OK I suppose, but honestly, it does seem to be lacking in mid-punch … I don’t know how to describe it better. Remember, I’m a guitar player (yes, we mike up), so I likes to hear the mids :-) I haven’t heard the new horns yet, so all this is a bit premature I suppose.
Even if this “15 to 12 mod� turns out to be something worth a try, I’d wait to do it until I’m done futzing around with the original retrofit before really hacking the spare set. It would be done in a reversible fashion … make or buy a bolt-on baffle ring to hold a 12 … so if it really didn’t work out, they could always be put back to being a 115 cab and I’d never speak of this again :-)
The woodworking task to make an “adapter baffle board� would not be a problem if there is not an aftermarket product to adapt a front-loaded 15� baffle to take a 12� speaker … something like this, but for front loaded speakers:
I realize that these S115V cabs only go for about $370 each – thats $740 a pair – and they’re probably not what any of you experienced sound folks would use for FOH, but budget is a big consideration at the moment and they’re all we got. If there is a “bang for the buck� potential here with a retrofit of some good 12’s – that would be great. If I should just live with the robo-horns and the stock 15s, then that’s what I’ll do. What says ye all?
If conventional wisdom says “just replace the 15 and be done with it�, then should I choose an Eminence Kappa Pro 15A or something else?
If we go ahead with the wacky 12� idea, what would be a good choice? Eminence Kappa Pro-12A?
I have put on my custom made Teflon Anti-Ridicule Suit … please fire away :-)
The 15" IS an Eminence speaker, very probably the Kappa, you could get that repaired/reconed for about $75 I'm guessing?
The thing is, speakers have a particular VAS, and a set of other parameters that are meant to protect the drivers form over excrusion... simply slapping another driver in the box and attempting to tune it with ports, isn't likely to work.
Yes, 12" speakers sound better on mid timbre vocals than 15". But your better off to build a new cabinet...I have some designs if your interested...
Gadget
Yea, I figured this would be the answer. But being a DIYer, I just had to ask.
I see that a new Kappa Pro 15A runs about $140, so a rebuild at around half price or so sounds good. Do you have any recommendations on places you’d send a speaker to get rebuilt?
And yes, I am very interested in any plans you have for DIY built cabinets. I hate to cross topics in this thread, so how do we go from here … PM, email, new thread, ???
This little puppy I have loaded with a 1.4" exit 4" voice coil horn driver, and 4" voice coil Neo woofer, but you could easily use these: http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/product ... c=johmfnj8
Would be perfect with your "robo horn" drivers and this: http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/product ... c=joisene8
horn (which is 90X 40) and $4.00 :shock:
or if you intend to make 4 and array them (120 degrees per side) for better coverage, and use in difficult rooms...to keep the sound off the walls and on the people...
Either would need the horn driver to be supported inside the cab because they are lightweight Glass filled ABS. You would need to modify the cutout for the horn...
These would sound KILLER! (but not as good as the with the 1.4" exit driver that I cross just below 1200hz.
Comments
Thanks man. We're moving to a new location, which will hopefully provide us with more work. I plan to expand the PA when I get some more bread, and i will definitely look you up for your settings on the DR when I do.
“…I have Four of those Yamaha's across the front stage as monitors. You really need a DriveRack to get the flat response necessary to get the clarity out of them. …� + “…try the tunings I came up with using Smaart and a measurement mic set at head height on axis …� + “…The "Delay" function is vital too. That is where you time align your mids and highs (If you bi-amp). …� + “…I grabbed a few of those P-Audio drivers today. …�
Yes Dr. J, could you provide the tunings you came up with for the stock Yamaha’s! Either here, or I can provide my email address – your call.
My P Audio drivers just came in the mail today. Now I am waiting on my Parts Express and Audiopile orders to show up before I’ll have all the bits and bobs needed to retrofit the cabs and handle the support tasks.
If all the orders don’t show up in time for our gig next weekend, then the Yamahas will go out again with their stock drivers. Gadget has already given some killer advice that has improved them considerably, but anything specific that you would be willing to share would be much appreciated too!
And if you were going to put one of those P Audio drivers in one of your S115’s and reshoot it using Smaart and the measurement mic, could you please share those results as well? That would be outstanding … beyond words.
I would love to have the level of diagnostic equipment you guys already have, but for now, I only have the DRPA and a Radio Shack SPL meter and my ears – plus some good music CDs as well as the “audio test CD� linked to from the FAQ. I’m not the sound guy, I’m the guitar player in the band that only gets to set the system up during soundcheck … when I’m either not playing or am on the wireless. Assistance here from someone that actually has one of these “robo-horn retrofitted Yamies� plus the gear and skills to really align and flatten the response would be greatly appreciated.
Jeff S.
It would be fantastic if you eventually decide to “upgraded your S115V monitors� as well, reshot their response, and posted that too. That would be exactly what I will have as FOH.
Yes, I will be verifying the polarity of the entire system as you and Gadget have recommended – that’s on the “to-do list�. The Mains will be handled as I repair them. BTW, the two S115V’s I’m doing now were wired OK from the factory – guess the band got lucky … right up to the point where they blew them up because they didn’t know what they were doing :-) .
I grabbed a few extra XLR panel-mount connectors of both genders and plan to make (among other things …) a little “XLR polarity-swapper breakout box� so I can easily invert the polarity on the XLR send going to the Horn Amp by just flipping a switch and then use this to check the polarity of the cabinet … send a sine wave that falls in the crossover region then flip the switch to “invert� and see if that way shows a drop in SPL and sounds worse. I’ll make sure to use a “break-before-make� switch. This breakout box seems like another good thing to have in the toolbox since I don’t have a convenient way to do this on the fly.
I will look forward to seeing your tunings for your stock S115’s now, and HOPEFULLY again after you retrofit them with the new P Audio drivers and reshoot! Also, I hope they fix their error and send you the entire driver units like they should have done in the first place – before they run out them at that price!
Thanks Dr. J.
Dennis
Eminence psd 2002 for the horns because you can get the entire assembly for about $54.00. They were waaay cheaper then JBL's replacement driver. Yeah -- I mean -- if I am going to upgrade any horn driver -- I will start with my FOH first. I am certain the P-Audios will be better by far. There is no doubt I will be re-doing my system as soon as the weather breaks. I would actually like to do it when the temperature and weather in general (NO WIND) is close to what it would be like in an actual bar setting. Wind is terrible on your efforts to get things set right because it messes with the trace so much. I can always do just the horns and give you an idea on what that would be and you just program it in to your DR. I will have already given you the woofer settings by then. Just try what I already have and then A / B it. Go with what you like the best. I will have to get into my DR and get you the settings. Hopefully by Monday I will send them to you.
Yes, “…Phase does not equal polarity …�. I got that.
I used the phrase “… verifying the polarity …� here to mean “making sure the wires are not crossed in my cabinet�. I believe I followed the rest of your post as well. BTW, I wouldn’t just go into an assembly and flip the polarity of any component because I “felt it is backwards� without first knowing exactly what I was doing and why I was doing it. Nobody else should do this either. That is very good advice to post.
Phase in the Frequency domain can be correlated to Delay in the Time domain … done this as an EE many times, but this topic is beyond the scope of this conversation, and I bet I could learn a lot about hands-on FFT / audio RTA / convolution / impulse response / etc. from you (and the other folks on here as well) … hopefully I will be lucky enough to do just that some day in the future. I’m a newbie when it comes to setting up and running a live audio system, but I’m not a newbie when it comes to electronics in general and filter design in particular.
I am just bi-amping a mid/hi cabinet here, and I plan on using LR24 for both crosses as per the general consensus --- LR24 -- 4-pole filter, so 4x90 degree phase-shift outside the pass-band and both signals behaving “similarly� in the crossover region, so this setup should “turn me around just fine� where it counts. Here, I will just be verifying that the _wires aren’t bunged up_ and the _polarity on the Drivers were correctly marked by the Mfg._ as follows:
Verify a 9V battery drives the Woofer’s cone “out� when connected “+ to +� and “- to –“, then wire the cab,
Woofer’s “+� or Red terminal to Speakon “1+�,
Woofer’s “-� or Plain terminal to Speakon “1-�,
Horn’s “+� or Red terminal to Speakon “2+�,
Horn’s “-� or Black terminal to Speakon “2-�,
Then after it is all wired up, make sure it sounds “right� when it’s reproducing a sine wave that’s frequency lies in the x-over region when the polarity of the signal going to the Horn Amp is unchanged, then make sure it sounds “wrong� when it’s polarity is flipped by having the breakout box “cross-wire pins 2 and 3� in the XLR run.
I hope that makes sense. If not, I am open to feedback … forgive the pun :-)
This is the only way I’d know how to do it here with the gear I have. I have long since stopped trusting manufacturer marks on guitar speakers and have often used the “9V battery trick� to verify the speaker’s “polarity� in my cabinets. I can’t do that with horns since there is nothing to “see popping out at me�. The above steps seem like a reasonable exercise to me, since I don’t trust what I cannot measure or hear – regardless of what terminal is painted Red on a driver.
All the parts required to do the retrofit on the cabs is supposed to arrive on Saturday. I’m really having a blast with this stuff. Thanks to everyone for putting up with me. Maybe someday, I can return the favor and help someone out here.
Hello Dr, J.
No worries, I think we’re good … you didn't confuse me. I really appreciate the input, but you did just give me some more to think about. Yea, this stuff is crazy, but when it all works, it probably sounds sooooooo good. I really want to get there.
Quote:�… As long as you are not bi-amping you don't have to worry about it so much …�
But I will be removing the factory passive x-over so I WILL BE bi-amping. I will be wired direct and straight through to the woofer and horn in the cabinets. No more response from the old x-over to worry about any more, like if they had a 2-pole passive filter than puts the phase “180° outâ€? outside the pass-band, so they just go in and hook the horn up “reversedâ€? to add another 180° of phase shift to get us back in phase … something like that.
Everyone,
I don’t have the gear to check the actual acoustic phase response, I can only hook it straight-up and then hear it work and adjust what I can then hope for the best. I am very concerned that without the proper gear to verify the phase alignment after choosing the “polarity� to wire up and the “Delay values� to try in the DRPA, this is all just a stab in the dark. If I may paraphrase Dr. J., “if the phase alignment is hosed up, then someone just can’t EQ themselves out of that mess�.
This brings me back to the Delay parameters of the Low, Mid, and High paths that I CAN control in the DRPA. Now that I will be going 2x5 (mono sub + stereo mids + stereo highs) with three paths now through the digital stuff, if I set the Delay parameter of one of them to Zero, I can now adjust the Delay of the other TWO to try and bring the phase / delay response of all three channels back into alignment. I can follow the FAQ thread about measuring the relative distance of each driver face in the cab and using this to alter the delay numbers a bit, but here’s the rub …
I know I only have 10m to play with and that should do it all if I “choose wisely�. I’ve see the 7.5ms value bantered about here for someone using LR24 to cross, but ONE delay number only handles the time relationship between TWO signals. I will now have THREE, presuming there is no difference in the Left and Right channels.
So if I make the “correct� choice and assign a delay of Zero to one path through the x-over, then I will need TWO delay values so I can set the relationship of the remaining TWO paths with respect to the first one. For instance, if I choose Zero delay for the Highs, then I will need one delay number for the Mids and another possibly different delay value for the Lows. And if I choose the WRONG one and set it’s delay to Zero, then I might not be able to fix this since we cannot “predict the future� and have negative delays in other paths here to catch up – or have enough delay to get us back around the bend.
If I had to guess (which I HATE to do by the way), I would put the High’s and Mid’s Delay at Zero and the Low’s Delay at 7.5ms since I’ve only heard that one delay value being discussed – then fudge these with small values that the physical offsets of the drivers in the mid/hi cab will be bringing to the party.
I really need a FFT / RTA setup like you folks have … that Smaart application looks pretty cool … then I could see this stuff for myself.
Question:
Does anyone have the actual individual propagation delays thru a DRPA for a 2x5 crossing with LR24? Just pick the “correct� path and define it as having Zero Delay, then give the possibly different delay values for the remaining two paths, each path’s Delay is to be with respect to the path you defined as having Zero Delay. Two numbers. That sounds like something that should be known with so many folks having that Smaart setup.
Dennis
Jeff -- Let's do this. After your Yamaha's are biamped -- check the polarity on your woofers. Make sure they move outwards when hit with a positive pulse. Your horns........ Just wire them as the manufacturer has them labeled. Without a polarity checking device -- all you can do is what the manufacturer says. Once that is done -- you need to put into the DR the parametric settings I will send to you. Since I have not bi-amped YET (Got more important things first) I have NO idea what the delay settings would be. I know it has been said that there is a 7.5ms propagation delay thru the DR but I just could never confirm it with Smaart the way Mike Kovach describe it. I PM'd him once and he wrote back something that I have long forgotten BUT it still didn't make any sense. I'm not saying he is wrong because he is a very smart guy. I just don't know how he did it or came up with it. DBX (Corporate) has never addressed this either or explained it so I don't know what the TRUE deal is. I guess I can email Mike Hunter and ask him. He has sent me some pretty cool demonstrations before. My delay settings are very different thru my system and didn't take very much to align the drivers unless I am behind or in front of the cycle. I don't think it is wrong. Dennis helped me set it up and has viewed my traces. Let me write more here soon. I got to go run a few errands and I will back later.
I’ll be looking forward to your PEQ settings. Since you’ve flattened the Yamahas and played with the system delay for Low, vs. High, could you add that info too? Your delay number would likely be closer than my stab in the dark.
Your settings will come in handy too, it is looking like I will be taking the original non-biamped set of S115V’s out this weekend since I’ll likely not have any time to play around with these modified cabinets before then, even if the rest of the stuff arrives today to finish the cabinet rebuild / re-rack / change the drop snake / make new patch-bays to support the Speakons ...
The rest of the band gear (racks, DRPA, amps / etc…) is out of town at and I only get to touch it once a week at rehearsal or maybe on the weekend if I can drive out and have a play-date with it.
#1. Choose your XO point. EV has a booklet out there called the "Crossover Cookbook". Go to EV's site and download and read it. It should be located in the section that deals with there program called "RACE"..... it is EV's version of Smaart. They stress anything less than a 1" throat horn should never go below 2K & a 2" horn should never go below 1K. This may open up a debate but that is just what they said and could be specific to EV speakers .... who knows. If I were you -- I would set your XO in your DR at 2.36K for the horn. Of course the upper end of that will just be "OUT". Set the Low pass on the woofer at 2.36k LR24. I wouldn't use a gap. I tried gaps a lot in the beginning but it always made the buildup over the XO decrease. That makes the response uneven across the most crucial part of your set up. After you set your delay -- your acoustic XO will land somewhere between 2.36k & 2.50k. Your DR XO is the electrical XO point and it doesn't mean your Acoustic XO point will match it. You can see this plain as day with a FFT program.
#2. Next, open the "DELAY" section of your DRPA & put these parametric settings in there:
Choose "BELL" for your parametric curve.
F1 = 224Hz, 5.5dB, Q= 3.41
F2 = 1.60K, 10.5dB, Q= 5.71
F3 = 3.35K, 10.0dB, Q= 9.55
Something just dawned on me. I use the DRPX for this and it only has three parametrics available for mids and highs. The DRPA has much more which would have helped to get the response flatter. Oh well, just go with the three i gave you. I also have the Yamaha monitor style cabs. do you have the same yamaha monitor style cab or is it the actual style made for FOH? Don't know if there is any difference in the two designs or not as far as volume goes. Just try those settings and see what you think. They had to be EQ'd alot to smooth them out. I personally don't like boosting anything if I don't have to BUT cutting instead of boosting wasn't correcting the response either. You have to keep in mind those cabs only cost $350 at best so they aren't really the best tops to use but they do work.
#3. as far as the delay settings go -- you can try to invert the signal and use a test tone to see if you can hear a "dip". I tried to do it that way but you only get about a minute of that awful sound before your ears finally decide it isn't worth pursuing. Put in some music you know real well and while it is playing -- delay your mid speaker to your horn. Listen real close........ if the volume rises & it seems that the music actually clears up or even sounds better ... try to find a "range" where this happens. This all has to happen within .04ms - .50ms. If you don't notice anything with this then set the mid delay back to ZERO and then engage the horn and start to delay it. The mid speaker could be on the subtractive side and that may be why you didn't hear anything so delay the horn to the mid instead. Try it the same way. If you notice better sound clarity / smoothness and a slight rise in volume -- go with that. This is all experimental by the way. You really need Smaart to do it correctly. Make sure all of your EQ's (Except parametrics) are off or set to flat. You may want to leave your channel strip EQ flat too at first. That may help you to hear deficiencies in the response. Well, that is all I can tell you for now. Just try it. If you go full range for the gig and your tops aren't bi-amped -- leave the delay OFF & just try the parametrics. After that use your channel strip EQ for ALL EQing and try to leave the GEQ alone. Let me know how it goes
G
I went to do the cab rebuilds last weekend after the gig was over (the gig went fine BTW with the unmodified FOH mains set - thanks for the EQ advice), and I found that besides each of the two “wounded� cabinets having fragged-up horns, one of these cabinets actually had a blown woofer as well; the voice coil on one of the 15’s was open and at least one cap in the passive xover was cooked – jeez, they really did the job on that one.
I went full speed ahead with the refit on the three remaining cabs and am looking forward to hearing them in action, but this new discovery has got me thinking … always a risky thing to do :-)
Recall that we have TWO sets of S115V’s (the two cabs that they hadn’t blown up yet, and the two that they had slammed). The “still-good set� right now is used in conjunction with a Peavey SP218 sub for our FOH in a 2x3 setup. The plan was when we are done with this round of horn retrofits, we’d have a set of bi-amped mains FOH with a sub in a 2x5 setup, and a “standby mains cabinet pair� that would probably just be kept as spares. But now, one of those spares has a blown 15� so at the very least, it would need a replacement woofer to ever be put back into service.
I know I could just leave that one cab with the blown 15 “out of service�, or just order a replacement 15� speaker for it, but here comes the crazy idea … what about doing something a little wacky with the spare pair if it might sound better …
What about cutting a baffle adapter (or finding an alternative on the market) and loading some good 12� drivers in the existing 15� spot? Sort of going all the way on the “robo-rebuild� concept with the 2nd set --- besides having better horn drivers and a bi-amp setup, having 12� speakers for the mids instead of the 15s? Is this a completely crazy and futile idea? Would we gain anything going to a 112 as opposed to a 115 cabinet here?
If anyone was willing to get all “Thiele & Small� on me, I could list the sizes of the two stock cabinets and the size of the ports on the existing 115 – but the datasheet is out in the open. I’ve always liked closed back guitar cabinets that had a little more internal volume than what is usually seen on standard 4x12s or 2x12s, but I don’t know how this would translate to PA speakers.
I’ve also thought that the present S115V with a Sub lacked something in the vocals … it seems kind of muddy to me. This might be due to the lack of proper setup / EQ expertise at the moment (haven’t had an auto-EQ session outdoors yet). Or maybe, this is just what a stereo 1x15�/horn with a 2x18� sub off to the side just sounds like. It’s OK I suppose, but honestly, it does seem to be lacking in mid-punch … I don’t know how to describe it better. Remember, I’m a guitar player (yes, we mike up), so I likes to hear the mids :-) I haven’t heard the new horns yet, so all this is a bit premature I suppose.
Even if this “15 to 12 mod� turns out to be something worth a try, I’d wait to do it until I’m done futzing around with the original retrofit before really hacking the spare set. It would be done in a reversible fashion … make or buy a bolt-on baffle ring to hold a 12 … so if it really didn’t work out, they could always be put back to being a 115 cab and I’d never speak of this again :-)
The woodworking task to make an “adapter baffle board� would not be a problem if there is not an aftermarket product to adapt a front-loaded 15� baffle to take a 12� speaker … something like this, but for front loaded speakers:
http://www.jdesigncabs.com/Accessories.htm
I realize that these S115V cabs only go for about $370 each – thats $740 a pair – and they’re probably not what any of you experienced sound folks would use for FOH, but budget is a big consideration at the moment and they’re all we got. If there is a “bang for the buck� potential here with a retrofit of some good 12’s – that would be great. If I should just live with the robo-horns and the stock 15s, then that’s what I’ll do. What says ye all?
If conventional wisdom says “just replace the 15 and be done with it�, then should I choose an Eminence Kappa Pro 15A or something else?
If we go ahead with the wacky 12� idea, what would be a good choice? Eminence Kappa Pro-12A?
I have put on my custom made Teflon Anti-Ridicule Suit … please fire away :-)
The thing is, speakers have a particular VAS, and a set of other parameters that are meant to protect the drivers form over excrusion... simply slapping another driver in the box and attempting to tune it with ports, isn't likely to work.
Yes, 12" speakers sound better on mid timbre vocals than 15". But your better off to build a new cabinet...I have some designs if your interested...
Gadget
I see that a new Kappa Pro 15A runs about $140, so a rebuild at around half price or so sounds good. Do you have any recommendations on places you’d send a speaker to get rebuilt?
And yes, I am very interested in any plans you have for DIY built cabinets. I hate to cross topics in this thread, so how do we go from here … PM, email, new thread, ???
http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/product ... c=johmfnj8
Would be perfect with your "robo horn" drivers and this:
http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/product ... c=joisene8
horn (which is 90X 40) and $4.00 :shock:
or if you intend to make 4 and array them (120 degrees per side) for better coverage, and use in difficult rooms...to keep the sound off the walls and on the people...
Either would need the horn driver to be supported inside the cab because they are lightweight Glass filled ABS. You would need to modify the cutout for the horn...
These would sound KILLER! (but not as good as the with the 1.4" exit driver that I cross just below 1200hz.
The finished product:
http://www.fane-acoustics.com/downloads ... ure_12.pdf
The Crescendo 12MB is available for $160 @ MCM electronics...
The same horn/driver combos apply here...
G