AutoEQ and AutoLevel with no right channel

Pscribby

Greetings. I am using 3 DRPA2 units with 2 amplifiers, running 3 signal chains:

-Mains (mono mains, mono subs) - channel 1 (mains) of amp 1 and channel 2 (subs) of amp 1
-Monitors A - channel 1 of amp 2
-Monitors B - channel 2 of amp 2

As such, each DRPA2 is configured stereo input, dual mono EQ, and only using left input and left side outputs (full range for monitors, and 2 way XOver for mains).

Everything works great except that AutoEQ and AutoLevel wizards dead-end when trying to test signal from right channel (which is not being used at all). There's only 2 options given: "Try Again" or "Cancel AutoEQ". Changing input config to mono, changing GEQ config to linked stereo, or any combination thereof all lead to the same dead-end in the wizards. Surely dBX knows that folks will use these in fully mono mode (ie: not just mono input, but mono output as well, where a highly portable system like mine places 2 speaker cabinets on each amplifier channel and everything is purely mono)... (and yes, I know that for full range mono, there's really nothing to "level", but would still like to use that for the 2-way mains, and want AutoEQ for both)

Am I missing something? I thought perhaps since this is relatively new on the market that a firmware update might be out there - nope (not yet anyway)... I've got firmware version 1.1.2 in all 3 of my units and they all behave the same way, so, don't think it's a defect, rather by design...

Appreciate any help or suggestions... I can manually configure/use: GEQ, PEQ, Limiters, AFS, RTA, etc and the system works and sounds great... I just have been frustrated so far that I am unable to use 2 of the coolest features in these units due to my configuration... I'm hoping I've overlooked something, but I honestly doubt it... I'm new to DRPA2, but not to pro audio gear... I've been dealing with pro audio and playing in bands for 25 years...

Thanks!

Dra

Are you saying that with a mono config and stereo linked GEQ that it requests a left and right Auto-eq? It should not.

DRA

Pscribby

Dra wrote:

Are you saying that with a mono config and stereo linked GEQ that it requests a left and right Auto-eq? It should not.

DRA

Yes, that is exactly how it actually works. Software bug if you ask me...

Dra

I think that the auto-eq may require a 2nd pass with the mic in a different position. Give that a try.

Pscribby

Dra wrote:

I think that the auto-eq may require a 2nd pass with the mic in a different position. Give that a try.

I tried that configuration, once again, per your request... it's still the same... it sweeps once, the displays "Right Signal Not Detected" and gives same 2 choices... try again, or cancel... it will NEVER detect a right signal, because there IS NO right signal... I'm only using left... It seems to me that it should either give up on the right side and continue on with the left side (in the case of a dual mono GEQ), or, when mono input is selected, let me tell the DPRA2 that I also have a mono OUTPUT...

Looks like the software engineers forgot to account for mono output, as it seems to be totally missing with not even a work-around possible...

Dra

Looks like you have two options....
1) Call or email tech support and get their input.
2) Set up the PA2 in stereo. Let it auto-eq L&R, but then connect and use only one side.

I'd, at least, do #1 first.

DRA

Dra

FYI. I don't own a PA2, so I don't know if your problem is yours alone.

Pscribby

Dra wrote:

FYI. I don't own a PA2, so I don't know if your problem is yours alone.

Thanks Dra... I've seen other discussions on this forum, so I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, but others got pretty deep into details of their system and trying unusual configurations to work around it (such as "tricking" the DRPA2 by temporarily hooking up as stereo, run the wizard then change back)... those discussion seemed to quickly go off topic and turn into a debate on the merits of various system configurations, so I wanted try to ask the question and stick to the one issue.

One of the main reasons I wanted AutoEQ was to quickly and easily EQ a new venue... reconfiguring the PA while setting up for a gig is not real practical... At least all the other features work, but for $500 a piece, the unit should work as advertised... I just wanted to see if I was missing something before contacting mfg...

Thanks for trying tho, have a good one! Gonna contact dBX now... If I find any resolution, I'll be sure to share it on this topic thread...

Dra

I searched all the PA2 threads and found no discussion about your problem. Maybe on another forum?

DRA

Pscribby

Dra wrote:

I searched all the PA2 threads and found no discussion about your problem. Maybe on another forum?

DRA

This is the one I found initially on a Google Search that I was referring to...

http://dbxpro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=2340

(my point being that others have run into similar issues for the same basic config... what I see in this thread is it seems the moderator "gadget" doesn't realize that no matter how the system is configured, the wizard wants to check the right channel and upon failing to detect output, it dead ends at "try again" or "cancel"... then the discussion dissolves into some back and forth... unfortunately, no resolution).

I simply want to be able to AutoEQ left channel ONLY by whatever means... I would be ok if the DRPA2 simply gave me an option to ignore the dead right channel and continue using just the left signal detected by the sampling mic and calculate the curve based on that (intuitively, if using mono in, dual mono GEQ, this should happen by default where, given my scenario, it would set the left mono EQ based on left signal detected and do nothing on the right mono EQ which I'm not using anyway... but the wizard stops dead upon failing to pick up a signal from the right channel no matter how input/GEQ are configured - trust me, I've tried EVERY combination at least 6 times)

Dra

While logic implies that the PX and PA2 should be "similar"... I would never assume that to be true. I would also WANT the Wizard in the PA2 to be MILES better and different (while still "similar"). Good luck (no eye roll) with tech support.

DRA

Pscribby

Dra wrote:

While logic implies that the PX and PA2 should be "similar"... I would never assume that to be true. I would also WANT the Wizard in the PA2 to be MILES better and different (while still "similar"). Good luck (no eye roll) with tech support.

DRA

Yeah, thanks man. I know... I am an engineer myself, so I understand not only the perils in assuming, but also how design process works developing new/better versions of products... and how some seemingly obvious consumer needs are sometimes missed by the design team that can't see the forest for the trees... In reading that earlier thread, it seems that, while the algorithms used in AutoEQ may have been improved, the menu structure to access it, may not have been changed much... now, it's also possible that the AutoEQ algorithm is designed such that it MUST have a stereo signal... if so, then that's a mistake in my opinion, but perhaps there's some technological limitation (I'm not an acousitics/physics/EQ algorithm rocket scientist)... but if that's the case, then the literature, manual, and menu messages should all reflect that AutoEQ only works in stereo mode.... but, I'm speculating... what I do know of acoustics, it would seem feasible to AutoEQ an environment based on whatever sound comes out of your speakers, regardless of configuration, by comparing measured response against the known signal (sweep or pink noise or whatever)... so, I don't think there's a technological limitation... think it's a software menu "oops" here... I'm really hoping that's the case and they put out a firmware update to fix this... Not a big deal as long as they fix it.

wadetrahan

Im running into the exact same problem!

Pscribby

wadetrahan wrote:

Im running into the exact same problem!

I have spoken to dbx tech support several times. They are aware of the problem. They suggest a work around for the time being by using preset #40 and connecting your full range mono output to the LOW output instead of high, adjust the low pass crossover limits to be full range then run AutoEQ... I have found that if you change ANYTHING in the setup (amps/GEQ/config) at all, the work around breaks and you end up back with a wizard demanding a non-existent right channel signal. I did try this work around (without making any changes) and the AutoEA runs, but produces a curve that sounds like crap (because it tried to EQ my full range output as a subwoofer)... after talking with tech support again, they suggested the tweak to the crossover I mentioned above, but I haven't had a chance to try that yet myself... kinda disgusted with the whole thing right now...
They say that engineering at dbx has been made aware of the issue and that they are working on a firmware update, but who knows how long that will be... 6 months??? longer???

Dra

Does the PA2 prompt a button push before proceeding to the r(?) side pass? Or does it just GO?

DRA

Pscribby

Dra wrote:

Does the PA2 prompt a button push before proceeding to the r(?) side pass? Or does it just GO?

DRA

Once started, it just goes... it checks left, then right, the stops with 2 choices (try again/cancel)...

Still can't believe they COMPLETELY missed this simple configuration requirement...

Dra

I would think a few lines of code should take care of it.

DRA

Pscribby

Dra wrote:

I would think a few lines of code should take care of it.

DRA

Exactly! In config wizard, allow me to specify mono output, then in AutoEQ, only run left side. Done.

Pscribby

UPDATE: I have updated all my units to Firmware v 1.1.9... not sure what the changes were, but my issue of AutoEQ dead-ending with no signal detected from the right side (which I'm not using) remains...

I've talked to tech support many times about this now... they said they were trying to persuade engineering to address this in a future firmware update, though they were careful to emphasize that they were not sure even IF this would get addressed... EVER... :?

Dra

Trying to wrap my head around this (again). Is the PA2 simply verifying a connection (mic cable to a mixer) or actually "signal with content"? The auto eq process has nothing to do with the mixer, mics or instruments. They are not used. Connect to both inputs, even if you have to use an aux or a "Y".

You should be able to auto eq with no input cables attached. We know it won't let you. But it should.

DRA

Pscribby

Dra wrote:

Trying to wrap my head around this (again). Is the PA2 simply verifying a connection (mic cable to a mixer) or actually "signal with content"? The auto eq process has nothing to do with the mixer, mics or instruments. They are not used. Connect to both inputs, even if you have to use an aux or a "Y".

You should be able to auto eq with no input cables attached. We know it won't let you. But it should.

DRA

The issue isn't INPUT... it's that the DRPA2 wants to verify the test signal sent to OUTPUT Left and then Right... but I only have left out connected to an amp and speakers... there is NOTHING connected to the right output... and I don't think it wise to connect a Y cable tying the left and right OUTPUTS to a single amp channel (each of my DRPA2 units ONLY feeds a single amp channel)...

Dra

So... the "No signal" is because the mic is not picking up the output of the speakers (because they don't exist on that side of the PA2. Correct? Well that makes sense. Doesn't help you any though.

Do you have a powered speaker (heck, even an old computer speaker) to use during your setup to give a faux input? Who cares what the curve looks like. It will be not be used anyway.

DRA

Pscribby

Dra wrote:

So... the "No signal" is because the mic is not picking up the output of the speakers (because they don't exist on that side of the PA2. Correct? Well that makes sense. Doesn't help you any though.

Do you have a powered speaker (heck, even an old computer speaker) to use during your setup to give a faux input? Who cares what the curve looks like. It will be not be used anyway.

DRA

Now you are following me... no, I don't want to "trick" the wizard... a calculated curve based on acoustic response that does not represent what I'm actually using is useless...

Dra

If the l&r EQs are being "auto'd" separately, the fake one never comes into play because nothing with be connected for performance. The real one will be accurate. I understand you not wanting to because of inconvenience, but the curve would not be useless.

DRA

Pscribby

Dra wrote:

If the l&r EQs are being "auto'd" separately, the fake one never comes into play because nothing with be connected for performance. The real one will be accurate. I understand you not wanting to because of inconvenience, but the curve would not be useless.

DRA

you would think that dual mono EQ would mean totally separate response curces so yeah, you're probably right (you would also think using mono output wouldn't defeat one of the most heavily advertised features of the unit)... but the hassle isn't worth it (and I don't have a powered speaker for that purpose)... just wanted the silly thing to work as advertised (nowhere is the AutoEQ feature specified as "stereo output only")...

For now, I'm using the speaker/amp curves from the config, manual GEQ for tone (to suit my ear), and AFS to keep feedback in check... (along with limiter, and X-over in the case of my mains)...

Dra

I feel your pain. It sucks when the solution is more money (another amp). Could return one PA2 (run monitors A&B on each side of a single PA2 and put a little less money into an amp.

DRA

Pscribby

Dra wrote:

I feel your pain. It sucks when the solution is more money (another amp). Could return one PA2 (run monitors A&B on each side of a single PA2 and put a little less money into an amp.

DRA

I thought about doing that, except afs , limiter and other functions are not independent between left and right, and I want that level of control over my system... Reasons are many, for example, monitor B is drummer... He's got 7 drum mics plus a vocal mic... Want to keep feedback in check, and that bank will require very different notch filters than monitor A or mains...

Dra

I would have those same concerns.

DRA

Pscribby

Dra wrote:

I would have those same concerns.

DRA

So... been thinking about this... anybody see any reason I can't just use a Y cable from left and right outputs to the amp input cable? (in normal use, there's no DriveRack output on right channel, and during autoEQ, exact same signal will go to same amp and speakers (which is all I'm using anyway)...

Thoughts?

Dra

Pscribby wrote:

Dra wrote:

Trying to wrap my head around this (again). Is the PA2 simply verifying a connection (mic cable to a mixer) or actually "signal with content"? The auto eq process has nothing to do with the mixer, mics or instruments. They are not used. Connect to both inputs, even if you have to use an aux or a "Y".

You should be able to auto eq with no input cables attached. We know it won't let you. But it should.

DRA

The issue isn't INPUT... it's that the DRPA2 wants to verify the test signal sent to OUTPUT Left and then Right... but I only have left out connected to an amp and speakers... there is NOTHING connected to the right output... and I don't think it wise to connect a Y cable tying the left and right OUTPUTS to a single amp channel (each of my DRPA2 units ONLY feeds a single amp channel)...

I thought I had said that earlier. Lost in the confusion, I guess.

DRA

Pscribby

Dra wrote:

Pscribby wrote:

Dra wrote:

Trying to wrap my head around this (again). Is the PA2 simply verifying a connection (mic cable to a mixer) or actually "signal with content"? The auto eq process has nothing to do with the mixer, mics or instruments. They are not used. Connect to both inputs, even if you have to use an aux or a "Y".

You should be able to auto eq with no input cables attached. We know it won't let you. But it should.

DRA

The issue isn't INPUT... it's that the DRPA2 wants to verify the test signal sent to OUTPUT Left and then Right... but I only have left out connected to an amp and speakers... there is NOTHING connected to the right output... and I don't think it wise to connect a Y cable tying the left and right OUTPUTS to a single amp channel (each of my DRPA2 units ONLY feeds a single amp channel)...

I thought I had said that earlier. Lost in the confusion, I guess.

DRA

Yeah, I think you did, however you were suggesting connect/disconnecting cables before/after running the sweeps... and I don't want to mess with changing the system patches at a venue... however, I really can't think of a reason I can't just leave the Y cables in place.. I mute the right side output anyway (there's no signal, but why add more noise floor)...