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Elite User :)

your2slowyour2slow Posts: 26
edited June 2009 in PA General Discussion
Hey gang,

It's been a long time since I last visited the forums. I actually just wanted some advise on an updated system I running now.

So here is the breakdown of my setup....

Speakers,
Tops - Yorkville Elite EX2000, 1000 watts, 4 Ohms (going to bi-amp)
Subs - Yorkville Elite SW1000, 1000 watts, 4 Ohms

Amps,
Hi - Yorkville AudioPro 3400, 4 Ohms @ 1200 Watts
Mid - QSC RMX 2450, 4 Ohms @750 Watts
Low - Yorkville AP4040, 4 Ohms @ 1200 Watts

Setup,
Looking to change from 2 way system to a 3 way system. I'm going to switch the Elite EX2000 into Bi-amp and would like to know your recommendations for the DRPA setup here. Any Advise would be great.

Thanks in advanced
«13

Comments

  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    First a question... WHY would you run a 1200 watt amp on the horns, and a 750 watt amp on the mids?

    :roll:
  • your2slowyour2slow Posts: 26
    Gadget wrote:
    First a question... WHY would you run a 1200 watt amp on the horns, and a 750 watt amp on the mids?

    :roll:

    Good question. It was recommend to do this as the QSC has a much clearer sound. I've tested both the QSC and the AP3400 in full range mode and there is a big difference in sound.. The mid sounds much clearer with the QSC. So I figured I'd put that as the mid and the AP on the Horn. If you think reversing it would be better, I have no problem changing them.
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    So.... your telling me that in a side by side test...with the same input (CD/DVD/Computer/mixer out) the two amps sound TOTALLY DIFFERENT?
    uh.gif
    Wow I had heard the exact opposite... I trust however that the major players from the LIVE sound International Pro Sound web...They set up blind tests....They could not hear (for the most part) any real difference in the amps.

    I WILL postulate that the amp being nearly double the output capability...that it could be driving the speaker into a MAX output situation, and in doing so... could QSC's lesser power be the issue? Either way I cannot believe there is a discernible difference...
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    It could have to do with the AP3400 being a 4ohm min load, so it could be \"stressed\" somewhat. So maybe the horns won't \"stress\" it as much.

    DRA
  • your2slowyour2slow Posts: 26
    Gadget wrote:
    So.... your telling me that in a side by side test...with the same input (CD/DVD/Computer/mixer out) the two amps sound TOTALLY DIFFERENT?
    uh.gif
    Wow I had heard the exact opposite... I trust however that the major players from the LIVE sound International Pro Sound web...They set up blind tests....They could not hear (for the most part) any real difference in the amps.

    I WILL postulate that the amp being nearly double the output capability...that it could be driving the speaker into a MAX output situation, and in doing so... could QSC's lesser power be the issue? Either way I cannot believe there is a discernible difference...

    It seemed to be a much "cleaner" sound. Not to sure how else to describe it. Mind you, could the age of the Amp have something to do with that too?? The AP is going on about 12-15 years and the QSC is about 3 years. Either way, I'm willing to switch as a test, but would like to know what I should set the x-over as for the 3 way.
  • DennisDennis Posts: 801
    Back in the day, we had some new AP3400s when they were still a current product. Compared to other brands, the AP3400 \"felt\" like a 700W amp with red lights and distortion coming on at a relatively low volume. At that time I don't think Yorkville had any touring level stuff yet and Elite was near the top of their food chain. We attributed the low amplifier power of the AP3400s to being rated at 1200 \"Yorkville watts\". A few years before, the company was named \"Traynor\" and they created a new pro sound division and named it Yorkville. In the early 90s, they hadn't quite attained \"pro audio\" yet.

    Dennis
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    YA ... you could need a recap (The capacitors degrade over time...but I would think.. IF the amp was \"bad\" sounding that the horn would exacerbate that... unless in fact it IS a distortion thing from clipping... do you have an oscilloscope? ya right :lol:

    I can't find the tops listed by you...we need to have info on them to do that...
    G
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Thanks Dennis.. well there you have it...
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    Those have a 2\" horn and a bullet tweet, right? Are you going to use the internal x-over for these and disconnect the woofers?
    Looks like the newer models cross around 950-1000 in bi-amp mode.
    EX2000 used a DE75 driver
    2152 uses a DE750YT driver

    Use this info wisely.

    DRA
  • your2slowyour2slow Posts: 26
    Dra wrote:
    Those have a 2" horn and a bullet tweet, right? Are you going to use the internal x-over for these and disconnect the woofers?
    Looks like the newer models cross around 950-1000 in bi-amp mode.
    EX2000 used a DE75 driver
    2152 uses a DE750YT driver

    Use this info wisely.

    DRA

    Ya trying to find any info on the tops is a miss for me too. I might have to take it apart to confirm but it's 2 15" and a horn. They are not located anywhere on yorkville's site or on any google search.

    About the Internal x-over, I was told to rewire so that it gets bypassed and let the DRPA do the work. What do you guys think? Should I keep the internal x-over?

    Thanks again for everyone's help. I'm still new to this thing too, even though I've had it for about 2 years...
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    This http://www.yorkville.com/downloads/othe ... tchart.pdf shows there is a tweet with the horn. This cab is 3-way all by itself, which is why I asked about using \"part\" of the internal x-over to split the horn and tweeter. Look at the grill the tweet will be 3-4\" diam, if I remember right, and is offset to the edge above the top 15.

    DRA

    PS - I suppose ypou could just eliminate the tweeter and let the horn go to the top, but you'll lose the very highest that the tweet could get to.
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Dra I must be missing something...I don't se an EX...anything there either...seems to me I remember thought that for a time Yorkville had a 500 watt version of the elite series that had a 1\" exit horn in a 2 way design (quasi~three way as I recall... they cross the top woofer @ around 350 hz to limit the proximity/coupling effect of the 2 woofers being so close together) but I may be wrong...
    Dra?

    You might want to go inside and see what components you have.. I guess form your post they do NOT have Bi-amp capability? Not very... Elite ...
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    How did I do that? :? I have an old catalog at home. Now I have to know. However the EX2000 is listed on the 1st page of the PDF 7 from the bottom.

    DRa
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    I looked up the processor/x-over for the EX and it's not biamp ready. In fact, the graph shows no EQ at all for the top cab, but quite a bit for the sub.

    DRA
  • your2slowyour2slow Posts: 26
    Gadget wrote:
    Dra I must be missing something...I don't se an EX...anything there either...seems to me I remember thought that for a time Yorkville had a 500 watt version of the elite series that had a 1" exit horn in a 2 way design (quasi~three way as I recall... they cross the top woofer @ around 350 hz to limit the proximity/coupling effect of the 2 woofers being so close together) but I may be wrong...
    Dra?

    You might want to go inside and see what components you have.. I guess form your post they do NOT have Bi-amp capability? Not very... Elite ...

    As soon as I get home I'll update you guys on the drivers/horn type. But as for the bi-amp option, there is a switch at the back next to the 2 speakons to switch from full-range to bi-amp. More info to come...


    P.S, Just want to extend my thanks to DRA and Gadget and the reset of the knowledgeable members. It's people like you that make this easier for the reset of us.. thanks again for all your time.
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    Odd, the EX2000's that I remember had XLR inputs. All the older large Elite stuff had them. I have SW800's, by the way.

    DRA
  • your2slowyour2slow Posts: 26
    I'll even take some pictures... Might make it easier to visually them
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Hey Dra, did you actually SEE an EX2000 in that list? I mean I found the \"EXcrusion series EX 2000... but that ain't the same animal...

    Is that the EXACT model #? not 2152, or 2204... (I have the Elite 2204's myself) they have the BMD750 driver and RCF woofers...

    G
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    Oops again. I should have said open the bookmarks and goto the OLDER COMPONENTS below TRAYNOR and select ELITE series. Then 7th from the bottom on the first page.

    DRA
  • your2slowyour2slow Posts: 26
    Ok Here is what I've found.. I opened them up and this is what I see....

    On the Tops (EX2000) - 2 15\" RCF - L15K80Y. Unable to see the Horn type
    On the Bottoms (SW1000) 2 18\" RCF - L18Y800

    IMG_0002.JPG
    IMG_0003.JPG
    IMG_0005.JPG
    IMG_0007.JPG
    IMG_0010.JPG
    IMG_0008.JPG
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    edited June 2009
    Ok... As Dra said there is a Tweeter over and above the horn in the third picture to the right of the top 15\"...... we need to determine if (and I assume since it IS bi-amp able that it is) the horn and tweeter are on a crossover for the tops... So I would suggest setting the switch to bi-amp, and sending 1200hz on up (the diaphragm is 3\" on the horn and 2\" exit (from what I've found...))

    If all this is true... I'd send the tops 100hz LR24 HPF, the lo-mid/Hf xover is then 1400 hz LR24 and the speaker should be allowed to go to OUT...Set the Sub @ 40hz BW18, and the LPf @ 100hz LR24...

    G
  • your2slowyour2slow Posts: 26
    Gadget wrote:
    Ok... As Dra said there is a Tweeter over and above the hornin the third picture to the right of the top 15"...... we need to determine if (and I assume since it IS bi-amp able that it is) the horn and tweeter are on a crossover for the tops... So I would suggest setting the switch to bi-amp, and sending 1200hz on up (the diaphragm is 3" on the horn and 2" exit (from what I've found...))

    If all this is true... I'd send the tops 100hz LR24 HPF, the lo-mid/Hf xover is then 1400 hz LR24 and the speaker should be allowed to go to OUT...Set the Sub @ 40hz BW18, and the LPf @ 100hz LR24...

    G


    Yes the Tops have a built-in crossover. So am I correct in saying, when I switch to bi-amp, that the 2 15's will be driven by the dbx mid outputs and the horn/tweet will be driven by the Hi output. Then the Lows out of the dbx go to the sub (2 18')..
    If the above is the case, then your saying to setup the L @ 40hz BW 18, and LPF @100 LR24, the M @ 100hz LR24 HPF and the last setting H @ 1200hz <--- speaker should going to 'OUT' ? I'm sorry for the confusion on my part..
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Yup, and add that the \"HI\" xover is Mid LPF 1400 hz, horn HPF 1400hz LR24...then do the GAIN STRUCTURE !
  • your2slowyour2slow Posts: 26
    Gadget wrote:
    Yup, and add that the "HI" xover is Mid LPF 1400 hz, horn HPF 1400hz LR24...then do the GAIN STRUCTURE !

    Thanks Gadget, So far so good.. Just need to adjust the eq's to get a little better sound and that should be it..

    One last question. I was told to remove the built in x-cross from the tops. What would the benefit be in doing this if Bi-amp seems to disable it anyways. Or am I wrong in thinking it's getting disabled/bypassed. Could I actually get better sound without the built-in x-cross? Just picking your brain ;)
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    IF the cab is built with a crossover designed to be bi-ampable... CHECK
    IF the cab has a tweeter and horn requiring internal filters (and the cab panel does not say \"Tri-Ampable\"... CHECK
    IF an amp could blow up right before or during a show, requiring running full range... CHECK

    DON\"T PULL THE X-OVERS :!:

    DRA
  • your2slowyour2slow Posts: 26
    Dra wrote:
    IF the cab is built with a crossover designed to be bi-ampable... CHECK
    IF the cab has a tweeter and horn requiring internal filters (and the cab panel does not say "Tri-Ampable"... CHECK
    IF an amp could blow up right before or during a show, requiring running full range... CHECK

    DON"T PULL THE X-OVERS :!:

    DRA

    Great points. Thank you Sir.
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    You GO Dra!

    But... I didn't see anything about a tweeter in the spec sheet provided...yes.. a diaphragm replacement for the DE75, but the next box is blank...no tweeter model listed? Did you see something different...

    Yet there it is on his speakers...looks clearly like a bullet tweeter... :roll:

    Those look to be the precursor to the Elite 2204's I have...Maybe the DE75's response wasn't sufficient? I couldn't find anything on a DE75... but the DE75PTN is 18khz??? For livesound over 18K is.. well hmmm :?

    G
  • DraDra Posts: 3,777
    I wonder if the EX2000 cab went through changes in the 90's and the model # didn't change. Add the tweet, drop the tweet. I forgot to look at the catalog that I have. I'll send myself a reminder email. The picture clearly shows a \"something\".

    DRA

    PS - Where'd I go? :wink:
  • your2slowyour2slow Posts: 26
    If you guys would like, when I get home today I can take the grill off, and remove the tweet and horn to get any info on it. It's amazing how much you guys know about these things.

    It wouldn't matter that it was made in Toronto, Canada does it?

    PS> DBX should pay for your internet connection cause if it wasn't for the two of you, this place would be going nowhere.
  • GadgetGadget Posts: 4,915
    Naw... doesn't matter that it was made in Canada... just tells me it was part of the Yorkville breakout of Traynor.. WHICH BTW I have an old 3X10 bass cab that I upgraded (actually someone THREW IT AWAY.. and it had a CASE to boot.. but no speakers) to aluminum cone 10's.. and MAN does it ROCK!

    YA, it also doesn't matter UNLESS it isn't the DE75... that would change things...

    Thanks for the cudo's...
    G
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