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Apple Tablet raising the bar?

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  • Jimweir192Jimweir192 Junior Member Posts: 502
    I don't think anyone is trying to tell AMX how to run their business, but there are very few places that customers can express a view on future products / wishes / dislikes to a company.

    I think its wonderful that we can have these forums as a place to make these thoughts known. I would guarantee that AMX personnel at all levels have read them - officially or not is irrelevant. Knowledge is the key to making good business decisions - for all of us as well as AMX.

    Forget the couple of heated posts & keep the debate rolling. This subject matter alone has generated more comments and views over 3 or 4 threads than these forums have seen for ages, and that is good knowledge for everyone here.

    *- Anyone who is asked for an iPhone app for an AMX system knows they are not alone
    *- Anyone who is not asked for an iPhone app for an AMX system has some info to be fore-armed with if they ever do
    *- AMX knows that there are lots of their customers (us) out there who want this but not all, don't think it should replaced traditional TPs, are willing to pay for it, & are being actively asked for this.
  • viningvining X Member Posts: 4,368
    To echo the last 3 posts we all want AMX to succeed and from a dealers perspective most of us have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of time & money to sell and become proficient in installing AMX systems. We see a trend moving towards a different model of personal UI's then was the norm for us in the past and to some degree the writng is on the wall if one takes the time to read it. There will be solutions to support these personal portable UI's and TPC was a perfect example of what could be made available. Now if TPC's venture comes to fruition or we use iRidium (spelling?) there will be something available. Or we can all roll our own which is possible but not efficient or practical. We could even have an open forum contribution to a common goal approach but in the end we will have a solution and AMX portable TP sales shall wane in favor of these new 3rd party portable GUI's. So where is AMX in this? With out TPs and no hand in the pie that's providing the solution there will be no revenue stream for AMX where there could be. If they develope the solution they can control the product, maximize its integration capabilty with AMX gear, stand out amongst the competition and $ profit $ from its lincensing. The alternative is to get no share and only lose revenue.

    Of course we want what's best for ourselves but that also means what's best for AMX cuz the two objectives are intertwined. So we voice our opinions and desires from possibly a different perspective then what the suits at AMX are seeing on the horizon. Now IMHO from what I've seen in the past couple of years the suits at AMX may be in need of glasses and possibly a little deaf so we need to voice our opinions frequently and occasionally shout in order to be heard.
  • Jorde_VJorde_V UX Scientist Posts: 393
    jjames wrote: »
    I presented an alternative philosophy, and you tried to pick it a part like an unprofessional whack-off, and I'd prefer not to go there. So if that makes you think that you "win" some stupid little debate, have at it. Grow up.

    What I find the best part of this whole thread is most have their two cents on how to run AMX - as if they don't know what they're doing.

    You obviously don't want to debate this, I have no issue with people disagreeing with me, but people disagreeing and not backing it up and that say my points are not valid *just because* doesn't slide well with me. If you have a alternative philosophy at least back it up.

    You don't like my viewpoint, I deem yours old fashioned. Let's end this debate there, no need to go further as you're convinced you're right and I happen to be convinced I am right. In the end it's up to AMX to decide what to do, we can only hope they share our vision. In the future I hope we can have more serious debates and more valid arguments.

    On that note, comparing this to panels etc.

    I think that most in-walls will do just fine, but people expect more out of their wireless panels. Where panels used to make people go 'wow' they don't anymore. That's an issue, and I sincerely hope AMX will come up with some new technology, or implement what's the standard these days (and hopefully top them).

    I'm getting a go at those new v-panels from c*tron soon and hope to see something similar (or better) from amx.
  • jjamesjjames Just another dude Posts: 2,906
    My idea is that AMX does not need and should not be like Cre$tron: outsourcing their panels to another company, and in this case we're talking Apple. For AMX to wow anyone, they need to come out with panels *like* the iPad / iTouch / iWhatever (does anyone else agree Apple has a very stupid naming scheme going on?) and roll with that. I don't believe AMX is the kind of company that co-brands anything. They buy the company and put their name on it, or develop it themselves. Perhaps they're old school in the sense that they want to do it themselves.

    This is why I think AMX won't (and should) have a solution for the iPad, but instead - have a panel that's somewhat comparable, BUT NOT IDENTICAL! I would think if you could get the following out of a wireless 9" with a smaller bezel than the 8400, for the most part, people would be happy.

    * Check their email (for the most part, that's already possible)
    * Browse the web (natively and not through VNC)
    * Multitouch
    * Lighter panels (in weight)

    Things you *don't* need on an AMX touch panel:
    * Music (MP3, etc.)
    * Videos (movies, etc.)
    * GPS
    * and probably more that might little non-business-brain can't think of

    Should AMX have some kind of app that you can run on your iPad to control AMX, maybe. I can see the possibility of someone sitting on their couch, reading their NY Times or Wall Street Journal on their iPad, and want to turn the TV on to Fox Business with a quick few presses, and then go back to their Sunday morning newspaper. But I don't think AMX should put a full emulator on the iPad, I believe it'd be a not so great business decision - but hey, I'm just a programmer, so what do I know?
  • jisaacjisaac Junior Member Posts: 34
    i like & respect jjames, but i couldnt disagree more. If AMX could produce such a panel, what would it cost?? dont forget the ipad is 499. I have had extremely wealthy clients & have admittedly taken for granted that they would just buy what i say. WRONG. Most of these folk are very smart & i no longer see them paying 10X a premium for an AMX or any AV touchscreen. I would also respectfully disagree with "things you dont need" on a panel or any device. I think AV customers are becoming less than thrilled about always being told what they dont need. Its rampant in this industry--they will decide if something is useless, you would be surprised.
    Also remember this , if AMX decides to foolishly compete with a company like Apple theyre done. AMX is a flea compared to a juggernaut like Apple. Its an over 50billion a year company. AMX cant compete on scale, customer base, R&D, engineering, pricing, you name it.
    If this Ipad takes off i think its ballgame for ALL AV touch panel manufacturers (residential). Soon enough you will see a flurry of accessories (similar to the ipod accessories--the likes of which by itself probably generates more revenue than AMX) prepare for all sorts of aftermarket thingys including docking stations that WILL include an in-wall dock of some sort. No need for in-wall AV panels.
    The ENTIRE modero lineup has seemingly become a collection of doorstops over night (for resi).
    The question isnt whether AMX should produce an Ipad app, its how quickly. This is all a complete replay (sort of) of what the buzz was like when the ipod arrived. Music server manufacturers first strategy was to diss the product as a fad, a glorified walkman that could never affect a custom industries discerning & demanding clientele.. anyone keeping score?? show up to cedia one year and EVERY single booth has some sort of ipod solution. They didnt even wait that long for the ipod touch interface which now nearly EVERY single manufacturer has an app for. Its also worth noting anyone who is harshly critical of the Ipad in terms of what it perhaps lacks..interesting then whats your opinion of AMX's product which is INFERIOR in every way to this 1st generation device..
    I think the core of the argument here and what has not been really discussed is the continued contraction of the residential AV market. AV shops are afraid (rightfully so) that we are witnessing a generational shift in terms of disruptive business forces and technical advancement that is reshaping AV as we know it into an extremely nitch of a nitch of a nitch industry, at the expense of the livelyhoods of many of our colleagues. It happens to nearly every industry & its a painful process when it hits.
  • yuriyuri Junior Member Posts: 861
    jisaac wrote: »
    i like & respect jjames, but i couldnt disagree more. If AMX could produce such a panel, what would it cost?? dont forget the ipad is 499. I have had extremely wealthy clients & have admittedly taken for granted that they would just buy what i say. WRONG. Most of these folk are very smart & i no longer see them paying 10X a premium for an AMX or any AV touchscreen. I would also respectfully disagree with "things you dont need" on a panel or any device. I think AV customers are becoming less than thrilled about always being told what they dont need. Its rampant in this industry--they will decide if something is useless, you would be surprised.
    Also remember this , if AMX decides to foolishly compete with a company like Apple theyre done. AMX is a flea compared to a juggernaut like Apple. Its an over 50billion a year company. AMX cant compete on scale, customer base, R&D, engineering, pricing, you name it.
    If this Ipad takes off i think its ballgame for ALL AV touch panel manufacturers (residential). Soon enough you will see a flurry of accessories (similar to the ipod accessories--the likes of which by itself probably generates more revenue than AMX) prepare for all sorts of aftermarket thingys including docking stations that WILL include an in-wall dock of some sort. No need for in-wall AV panels.
    The ENTIRE modero lineup has seemingly become a collection of doorstops over night (for resi).
    The question isnt whether AMX should produce an Ipad app, its how quickly. This is all a complete replay (sort of) of what the buzz was like when the ipod arrived. Music server manufacturers first strategy was to diss the product as a fad, a glorified walkman that could never affect a custom industries discerning & demanding clientele.. anyone keeping score?? show up to cedia one year and EVERY single booth has some sort of ipod solution. They didnt even wait that long for the ipod touch interface which now nearly EVERY single manufacturer has an app for. Its also worth noting anyone who is harshly critical of the Ipad in terms of what it perhaps lacks..interesting then whats your opinion of AMX's product which is INFERIOR in every way to this 1st generation device..
    I think the core of the argument here and what has not been really discussed is the continued contraction of the residential AV market. AV shops are afraid (rightfully so) that we are witnessing a generational shift in terms of disruptive business forces and technical advancement that is reshaping AV as we know it into an extremely nitch of a nitch of a nitch industry, at the expense of the livelyhoods of many of our colleagues. It happens to nearly every industry & its a painful process when it hits.

    AMX is part of the Duchossois Group, which is probably bigger than you expect, but that on a side note :)
    http://www.duch.com/

    Furthermore, it's a proven fact that most of the Apple users are suffering Stockholm Syndrome ;)
    http://www.strandconsult.dk/sw4031.asp
  • felixmoldovanfelixmoldovan Junior Member Posts: 197
    Nerieru wrote: »
    According to the euro boss "We'll be blown away next week at the ISE" A lot of new products will be launched. I admit that I'm not hopeful, so I guess it could only turn out good...

    I'll keep you all updated about the ISE.
    Anybody blown away yet? I mean, except for the "amsterdam".
  • felixmoldovanfelixmoldovan Junior Member Posts: 197
    I guess I answered my own question...
    http://www.amx.com/products/categoryNewProducts.asp
  • the8thstthe8thst Junior Member Posts: 470
    I guess I answered my own question...
    http://www.amx.com/products/categoryNewProducts.asp

    I for one am completely blown away!
  • ericmedleyericmedley Senior Member - 4000+ posts Posts: 4,177
    the8thst wrote: »
    I for one am completely blown away!

    Thread drift.
  • Jorde_VJorde_V UX Scientist Posts: 393
    not blown away tbh, just an endeleo (iptv) and more signage. Nothing on control level though. Except maybe for the 8x8 hdmi switcher, with a dummy cat5 card in there which *will* be released. Apparently there will be *some* new panels at the infocomm in the states in q3.

    The 8x8 switcher was fast ,but it doesn't support a few things. C*tron released the same thing, but does sport more featues, though slower.

    So panel wise nothing is happening. At least not till the infocomm.

    Spoke with ashley about the iPad, and it's impact. The defence was "Well if we lower the prices, what would the rich people buy?" Which I can perfectly understand, but at least keep the panels up to the 'current'. And he agreed with me on that. It should not however become like a personal computer, on which I agree with him. Should be dedicated. Nonetheless nothing is gonna happen soon, and I did get to using slider bars etc as possible ways to move things, but the only way to get it done right now is very ver y clunky. And if it's not smooth I'm not gonna use it for my clients.

    /* end small update/rant */
  • yuriyuri Junior Member Posts: 861
    Nerieru wrote: »
    not blown away tbh, just an endeleo (iptv) and more signage. Nothing on control level though. Except maybe for the 8x8 hdmi switcher, with a dummy cat5 card in there which *will* be released. Apparently there will be *some* new panels at the infocomm in the states in q3.

    The 8x8 switcher was fast ,but it doesn't support a few things. C*tron released the same thing, but does sport more featues, though slower.

    So panel wise nothing is happening. At least not till the infocomm.

    Spoke with ashley about the iPad, and it's impact. The defence was "Well if we lower the prices, what would the rich people buy?" Which I can perfectly understand, but at least keep the panels up to the 'current'. And he agreed with me on that. It should not however become like a personal computer, on which I agree with him. Should be dedicated. Nonetheless nothing is gonna happen soon, and I did get to using slider bars etc as possible ways to move things, but the only way to get it done right now is very ver y clunky. And if it's not smooth I'm not gonna use it for my clients.

    /* end small update/rant */

    not blown away either. The Novara series can't really interest me, and i was hoping for a new or revised version of an older touchpanel...

    It was nice to see that they had some demo touchpanels with interfaces from VIP's :)
  • jjamesjjames Just another dude Posts: 2,906
    Nerieru wrote: »
    It should not however become like a personal computer, on which I agree with him. Should be dedicated.
    I could have sworn I said that . . . hmmm.
  • viningvining X Member Posts: 4,368
    Nerieru wrote:
    It should not however become like a personal computer, on which I agree with him. Should be dedicated.
    I think from a sales perspective this is true and we may need to change our panel designs and move away from the things we've added in the past in order to be more like a PC, like weather, radar & email. My thinking is we'll have to distance ourselves a bit so we don't look like wanna bees trying to do what these new hand helds do with ease and with far better results. We'll need to stick with the basics.

    Now from an integration perspective it's completely the opposite. The entire purpose of our products have been to merge the users interfaces in to one central command & control platform (TP) from which everything is possible. So now I see a retreat from that objective and we'll settle on controlling the things that the other products haven't gotten around to controlling yet and as they advance we'll retreat further and further and further and.......

    You know the old saying if you can't beat them, ignore them! :) That's not how it goes is it?
  • HARMAN_icraigieHARMAN_icraigie Technical Trainer II, Harman Professional University Posts: 607
    vining wrote: »
    Nerieru wrote:
    So now I see a retreat from that objective and we'll settle on controlling the things that the other products haven't gotten around to controlling yet and as they advance we'll retreat further and further and further and.......

    Or you could put the emphasis on systems management instead of simply controlling stuff...
  • Jorde_VJorde_V UX Scientist Posts: 393
    jjames wrote: »
    I could have sworn I said that . . . hmmm.

    Let me emphasize that, I meant that it should not be a PC as in that clients can't just install a lot and install more than what it can handle.

    So what I think would be great if it sported it:

    - Mail
    - Browser (with flash support!)
    - RSS Reader
    - youtube (& clones)
    - notes

    There are a lot of other features one could add, but right now the panels just aren't powerful enough to achieve it in a good way. Further more I don't think this should be added as a standard feature, more like an 'appstore' kinda way, so people that want it can buy it.

    Using the 'appstore' we'd be able to control what people can install, hence not screwing up everything, the #1 issue with PC's/mediacenters/hobbyist devices people screw it up if they can.

    But again, we'd need much more powerful panels.
  • a_riot42a_riot42 AMX Wizard Posts: 1,619
    Nerieru wrote: »
    - Browser (with flash support!)

    Why is Flash support important? Why support a dying technology? Its slow, inefficient and proprietary and personally I hate Flash sites and have never seen anything done in Flash that warranted its use. It has the perfect product name, as it is really just flash.
    Paul
  • ericmedleyericmedley Senior Member - 4000+ posts Posts: 4,177
    a_riot42 wrote: »
    Nerieru wrote:
    - Browser (with flash support!)
    Why is Flash support important? Why support a dying technology? Its slow, inefficient and proprietary and personally I hate Flash sites and have never seen anything done in Flash that warranted its use. It has the perfect product name, as it is really just flash.
    Paul

    To add to this. HTML 5 is probably going to make Flash a non-issue in general anyway.
  • yuriyuri Junior Member Posts: 861
    ericmedley wrote: »
    To add to this. HTML 5 is probably going to make Flash a non-issue in general anyway.

    but that's the future. It will take some time to replace every flash site with HTML5 ;)
  • ericmedleyericmedley Senior Member - 4000+ posts Posts: 4,177
    yuri wrote: »
    but that's the future. It will take some time to replace every flash site with HTML5 ;)

    In a race to see which is faster..

    end of Flash on the web

    or

    AMX putting out a TP that can do flash reliably

    who do you think wins?
    :D
  • PhreaKPhreaK Posts: 966
    I could see that happening - AMX brings out a great new line of panels with the main selling feature of 'flash support' just as the technology completely disappears form every other market :p.

    In terms of HTML5 replacing flash, it's already taking place. Most video sites already have all their content as H.264 and it's just presented through a flash wrapper. Vimeo and YouTube already have flash-less interfaces implemented through HTML5 video support. UI and animation wise the vast majority of what flash provides can already be implemented in a much neater and accessible form with HTML5, CSS and JavaScript.

    When it comes to an app store rig, why re-invent the wheel? If you're going to take that approach use an iPad and have the AMX interface component as an app. No offence, but apps developed for that platform for all that other functionality have been developed to a muuuuuch higher quality to anything that's likely to be produced for a proprietary platform with a comparatively miniscule distribution.

    @icraigie
    I couldn't agree more with your point about marketing it as a system management solution as opposed to an extremely expensive universal remote. If you wanted to (and it has already been done with the iPhone), you can completely cut out any AMX components and use the mobile device of your choosing as an all in one interface and controller that communicates to system devices via IP or 232 and IR through things such as the Global Cache boxes. Where this lets you down is that because there is no multitasking this solution can only communicate with the system devices while the app is open.

    The strong point of a fully integrated AMX system is that rather than acting a group of discrete components all of the devices that you are communicating with can be tied together, act coherently and most importantly appear to the user as a single logical device. Where AMX currently excel is at producing extremely stable, functional masters that once initially configured will reliably act as a system brain without need for external intervention for years (or decades) on end.
  • HARMAN_icraigieHARMAN_icraigie Technical Trainer II, Harman Professional University Posts: 607
    Nerieru wrote: »
    So what I think would be great if it sported it:

    - notes

    Done http://www.amx.com/ui/file.asp?uiType=widgets&item=Notes
  • Joe HebertJoe Hebert Junior Member Posts: 2,159
    icraigie wrote: »
    Ha ha. You?re joking right?
  • HARMAN_icraigieHARMAN_icraigie Technical Trainer II, Harman Professional University Posts: 607
    Joe Hebert wrote: »
    Ha ha. You?re joking right?



    What - its called notes and with maybe the exception of an 's' its not really being falsely advertised...
  • Joe HebertJoe Hebert Junior Member Posts: 2,159
    icraigie wrote: »
    What - its called notes and with maybe the exception of an 's' its not really being falsely advertised...
    Yeah, what?s an ?s? between friends? Funny stuff...
  • viningvining X Member Posts: 4,368
    Phreak wrote:
    I couldn't agree more with your point about marketing it as a system management solution as opposed to an extremely expensive universal remote. If you wanted to (and it has already been done with the iPhone), you can completely cut out any AMX components and use the mobile device of your choosing as an all in one interface and controller that communicates to system devices via IP or 232 and IR through things such as the Global Cache boxes.
    I also agree we'll need to change our marketing approach but when you look at entry levels systems like HAI which has a slimmer 10.4" wireless TP which allows you to browse the internet via IE, they provide an iPone app and can control everything else in the home all be it from a crude programming stand point it's hard to explain to a customer why our system is better and costs more. We seem to be on the defensive with our sales pitches trying to justify why we're better since from the customers perspective based on what they see on the surface we aren't.

    As far as management they also have a power management program that monitors engery use. So as far as providing better home management instead of just a TP that replaces a bunch on individual remotes it's meaningless unless we can get the sales in the first place and it's getting harder with little help from above. I stated a couple times in this thread I think most customers would quickly tire from using an iPhone to interface with their system (at least the older customers) and would ultimately return to using a fixed in wall TP or even ask for a dedicated AMX portable but the initial stumbling block is they want the iPhone app and sales are being lost because it isn't available. Of course those lost sales may also have been lost on other grounds like no browsing support or just little brand recognition.
  • viningvining X Member Posts: 4,368
    "iPad Will Redefine Home Automation"

    http://www.cepro.com/article/savant_apples_ipad_is_watershed_for_home_automation/

    "?The days of living strictly off hardware margins are numbered. If anyone thinks they can hold onto that model, they?re going to be extinct ? a dinosaur," he says. "The majority of our dealers understand that. They look to us for help to figure out what their business model needs to be moving forward.?

    There goes that word dinosaur again!
  • ericmedleyericmedley Senior Member - 4000+ posts Posts: 4,177
    vining wrote: »
    http://www.cepro.com/article/savant_apples_ipad_is_watershed_for_home_automation/

    "?The days of living strictly off hardware margins are numbered. If anyone thinks they can hold onto that model, they?re going to be extinct ? a dinosaur," he says. "The majority of our dealers understand that. They look to us for help to figure out what their business model needs to be moving forward.?

    There goes that word dinosaur again!

    the quotes below the article are interesting. They show a lot about the perceptions of John Q. Public. And in the world of John Q. Public, perception is reality.

    I downloaded the iRidium app and will give it a look. I've given up working on my iPhone interface because my schedule with ny normal stuff and our new startup compnay, Certfied Cyber Solutions is absolutely draining me dry.

    oh well.
    e
  • chillchill Luddite Posts: 186
    Touchpanel application for iPad

    ...unfortunately not for us. About 90 minutes ago my company received a new product announcement from a certain Electronics company which dare not speak its name. Excerpt below, slightly edited:

    "The hot new Apple iPad is a full 2-way CT touchpanel ? available the
    same day it ships from Apple.
    [...]
    Use existing CT software tools to create GUI designs and seamlessly
    integrate with any CT control system..."

    There was some discussion earlier in this thread about how cool that would be. Does AMX have any plans to release something like this?
  • vegastechvegastech Junior Member Posts: 369
    The thing I didn't see in that announcement is about how they have re-vamped the app to allow for the greater resolution that the ipad offers...So to me it sounds like just WAY bigger buttons. :) However, I suppose it's only a matter of time...
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