So yes, one more XTi 2000 to complete the package.
260:
channel 1/2 horns (dance floor)
channel 3/4 mids (dance floor)
channel 5 subs
channel 6 summed L/R to feed outside XTI6000/2000 pair (you can use the XTI's parallel input feature and "thru" feature to feed the signals to the amps and then process them internally in the amps. Use the same xover type and slope as used on the dance floor cabs.
You guys are an f'n lifesaver ! I was having nightmares in my sleep last night after reading about the patch panels :shock: .
The patch panel will be very simple...
4, NL4'female panel mounts, with one channel of the XTi 6000 wired to pins 1+/1- and one channel of the XTi 2000 wired to pins 2+/2- this x 4 connectors.. I would just use wire to the XTi screw terminals, and terminate in the NL4 female panel mounts.
since it's just an install you could simply hardwire the speakers and skip the jack panel...but if your buying premade cables then a jack.. panel would work as well..
G
Oh, and get "Band manager" loaded into your computer as well.. you can then monitor, and control the amps from the laptop.. including the amps temperature!
G
The patch panel will be very simple...
4, NL4'female panel mounts, with one channel of the XTi 6000 wired to pins 1+/1- and one channel of the XTi 2000 wired to pins 2+/2- this x 4 connectors.. I would just use wire to the XTi screw terminals, and terminate in the NL4 female panel mounts.
since it's just an install you could simply hardwire the speakers and skip the jack panel...but if your buying premade cables then a jack.. panel would work as well..
G
Gadget, my brain is clearly not as big as yours . I've ordered the other XTi 2000, the (2) XLR cables to run the NS7 directly to the Driverack, and I'm off to build a, um, jack...panel (like a have a clue what I'm talking about, lol) :P .
I'm still a bit :? ...I thought I had it, but then it slipped away again :shock: .
The (4) NL4MP female connectors on the jack panel will be for all (4) of the JBL SRX715's, is this right?
If so...in my head...I've wired it like this:
1st XTi6000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-1) & (+1) of NL4MP#1 [Output to LF Mid (Left Side Main, Stereo)]
1st XTi6000 - Right Channel (-) & (+) to (-1) & (+1) of NL4MP#2 [Output to LF Mid (Right Side Main, Stereo)]
1st XTi2000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-2) & (+2) of NL4MP#1 [Output to HF Horn (Left Side Main, Stereo)]
1st XTi2000 - Right Channel (-) & (+) to (-2) & (+2) of NL4MP#2 [Output to HF Horn (Right Side Main, Stereo)]
2nd XTi6000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-1) & (+1) of NL4MP#3 [Output to LF Mid (Left Side Outfill, Mono)]
2nd XTi6000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-1) & (+1) of NL4MP#4 [Output to LF Mid (Right Side Outfill, Mono)]
2nd XTi2000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-2) & (+2) of NL4MP#3 [Output to HF Horn (Left Side Outfill, Mono)]
2nd XTi2000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-2) & (+2) of NL4MP#4 [Output to HF Horn (Right Side Outfill, Mono)]
In my head this is correct. I hope it's correct in your's, too, haha.
I'm still a bit :? ...I thought I had it, but then it slipped away again :shock: .
The (4) NL4MP female connectors on the jack panel will be for all (4) of the JBL SRX715's, is this right?
If so...in my head...I've wired it like this:
1st XTi6000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-1) & (+1) of NL4MP#1 [Output to LF Mid (Left Side Main, Stereo)]
1st XTi6000 - Right Channel (-) & (+) to (-1) & (+1) of NL4MP#2 [Output to LF Mid (Right Side Main, Stereo)]
1st XTi2000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-2) & (+2) of NL4MP#1 [Output to HF Horn (Left Side Main, Stereo)]
1st XTi2000 - Right Channel (-) & (+) to (-2) & (+2) of NL4MP#2 [Output to HF Horn (Right Side Main, Stereo)]
2nd XTi6000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-1) & (+1) of NL4MP#3 [Output to LF Mid (Left Side Outfill, Mono)]
2nd XTi6000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-1) & (+1) of NL4MP#4 [Output to LF Mid (Right Side Outfill, Mono)]
2nd XTi2000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-2) & (+2) of NL4MP#3 [Output to HF Horn (Left Side Outfill, Mono)]
2nd XTi2000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-2) & (+2) of NL4MP#4 [Output to HF Horn (Right Side Outfill, Mono)]
In my head this is correct. I hope it's correct in your's, too, haha.
Thanks.
Rob
I found this a little hard to follow but I believe you have it correct.
I found this a little hard to follow but I believe you have it correct.
Thanks, Dennis .
Gadget said it was going to be that simple, but I just didn't believe him, lol .
I'll get it wired up now 8) .
I have all (4) of the XTi amps installed in the rack and also have all the new 13/4 AWG wire run to the new speaker locations. I'm still waiting on a couple of patch cords (I'm scrapping the Behringer mixer and running straight from the NS7 to the Driverack), but other than that I think I'm almost ready to hook up the 260 :shock: :shock: :shock: .
I have a pretty good handle on setting the gain structure w/ the NS7, have 30 min of pink noise, got the RTA-420 mic...
Still a little fuzzy on the settings on the XTi's w/ the CH 6 output of the 260, etc, though. I did say ALMOST ready .
Former U.S. Navy E.O.D. Diver & Part-Time Underwater Knife Fighting Instructor, Current Dirtbag Nightclub Owner & Active Nudist
:shock: :shock: :shock:
Former Coast Guard Aviation Electronics Tech... NON combatant ...with MANY years experience as a bar bouncer / closer though (at least I didn't have to carry a GUN!) :? ( not that I don't hunt... but just not people.. other than 2 legged deer... )
Ok, so...when you go to set the 260 you will enter the config ...mode..
Tell you what... send me your email address and I'll send you a .dwp file for the 260...and I'll see if I can send you a file for the XTi running the out fills as well..if you want that is..you've been so good about doing what we've asked ..and you will learn from what we send you too, but it will get you up and running faster and with less mistakes.... but it's up to you...
Former Coast Guard Aviation Electronics Tech... NON combatant ...with MANY years experience as a bar bouncer / closer though (at least I didn't have to carry a GUN!) ( not that I don't hunt... but just not people.. other than 2 legged deer... )
Admiral Gadget,
We have so much in common...except we don't hunt...deer, lol.
I got the .dwp file and loaded and saved it into the 260 as U1.
I'm still waiting on the last of the patch cords to permanently hook the NS7 up to the Driverack (I'm running XLR from the NS7 to TRS into my mixer, and then TRS to XLR from the mixer to the rack right now. I'm ready to set the gain structure, but I want to wait until I can take the mixer out of the ...mix . The RCA outputs of the NS7 are only 14.9 dbu, about half the XLR outputs.
So, I guess it's now on to the Auto EQ. I already have a good handle on how to set the limiters once I set up the gain structure, or at least it's not causing me any anxiety like the Auto EQ :shock: :shock: :shock: .
I have a 50' XLR cable, the RTA-420 mic and from what I've read I'm planning on laying the mic on the dancefloor (slightly off-centered to avoid the slight null that Dennis mentioned would be running down the center of the dancefloor with the new speaker layout).
I could do the outdoor method, if you think it would be better...
Not sure what Dennis will say, but perhaps one top only.. skip the subs (you'll have to do those by ear anyway... and no outside speakers...Strait out from the speaker your Auto EQ'ing.. and yes, on the floor.
An outside auto Eq, tops only, will get you a flatter setting...and that will help with the indoors setup because it will show you what the room is doing to the sound.
Glad we finally got you hooked up.. that was a bugger...
Glad we finally got you hooked up.. that was a bugger...
Yes, and thank you again for taking the time to write the file for me .
How you doin with Hi Q net System Architect?
I loaded up the (4) XTi's easily enough in the offline mode. I'm assuming the first two XTi's will be set to DSP Off (Ch 1,2,3 & 4 from the 260). I'm not 100% sure about the second two (the one XTi 6000 and one XTi 2000 running the outfills), but I at least figured out how to change the crossover settings, delay times, etc.
I'll play w/ it some more on Sunday, after I dazzle the crowd tomorrow w/ my still mediocre sound system :twisted: .
Not sure what Dennis will say, but perhaps one top only.. skip the subs (you'll have to do those by ear anyway... and no outside speakers...Strait out from the speaker your Auto EQ'ing.. and yes, on the floor.
An outside auto Eq, tops only, will get you a flatter setting...and that will help with the indoors setup because it will show you what the room is doing to the sound.
I'm with you on most of this but I do have a couple of variations to add. Since I use a different measurement platform, maybe my variations will not be appropriate for auto EQ so jump in and correct me.
For my outdoor baseline measurements, I usually do a groundplane measurement with the speaker under measurement laying on it's side, on the ground and the starting point for the measurement mic is 12' with the mic aimed straight down at the ground with the capsule about 1/8" from the ground. Auto EQ might be happier with a distance other than 12'. This method gives me the cleanest trace and results I am most happy with when I set up at the next venue. Having said that, I'm aware there are many ways to skin a cat.
Once we go indoors, I am with you on measuring one main speaker only but I'm not sure I would do ground plane on the floor. If I was to do groundplane, I think I would place a sheet of plywood across two tables, preferably the ones you stand up at and set the mic on the plywood.
I believe the 260 has a stand alone RTA so after I finished with auto EQ, I would place the measurement mic on a stand at about 5' off of the floor and take readings on the RTA in many places just to check consistancy. The MAPP Online prediction program I used includes "Virtual SIM" and I placed a virtual measurement mic many places in the room and without doing any EQing anywhere, things were looking pretty good. There were some variations but they weren't huge.
Once we go indoors, I am with you on measuring one main speaker only but I'm not sure I would do ground plane on the floor. If I was to do groundplane, I think I would place a sheet of plywood across two tables, preferably the ones you stand up at and set the mic on the plywood.
Thanks Dennis . I like this, especially since my dancefloor is sunken two feet down in the ground (could make a huge kiddie pool, lol).
And just to clarify, are you suggesting that I can just do the auto EQ inside w/ one speaker, and not take it outside first?
Gadget,
I played w/ System Architect some more today. I think I only need to build the venue w/ just the (2) XTi's that will run the outfills, is that right?
I don't know enough yet to really try and set it up for good, but I did the easy stuff...summed the inputs together for Ch 1, set the delay time to 2.85ms, and changed the crossover settings (to an arbitrary setting for the time being), and saved the venue to one of the empty presets (preset #6) to my desktop. I MAY need some advice here, lol.
On a side note...when I wire the two XTi's together...I'm thinking it will look like:
Ch 6 output from Driverack to Ch 1 input of one of the XTi's. Then from the Link/Out from the same amp to the Ch 1 input of the next XTi (and it shouldn't matter which amp is first)...is this right?
Thanks, Rob
***On Edit - I tried uploading the parameters page for the first amp (just for shits and giggles to see if I could), but all I got was a picture of the amp at the top of the parameters page :oops: 8) . I can print it just fine, though, so I'll be able to get it on here...when I need to...eventually :twisted: .
And just to clarify, are you suggesting that I can just do the auto EQ inside w/ one speaker, and not take it outside first?
I'll answer for Dennis here.. YES!
I played w/ System Architect some more today. I think I only need to build the venue w/ just the (2) XTi's that will run the outfills, is that right?
yes!
don't know enough yet to really try and set it up for good yet, but I did the easy stuff...summed the inputs together for Ch 1, set the delay time to 2.85ms, and changed the crossover settings (to an arbitrary setting for the time being), and saved the venue to one of the empty presets (preset #6) to my desktop. I MAY need some advice here, lol.
Ok, all the info you need is in the file I sent you... open up the GUI and select the crossover...Note that the hipass for the SRX 715's is 91hz BW48...the LPF is 1155hz BW48...the levels and Peq's and delays are all there also... make sure you verify that the information your copying is for the pass band you are working with (I.E. making sure that the midrange information gets into the 4000 and the High information gets into the 2000...)
Ch 6 output from Driverack to Ch 1 input of one of the XTi's. Then from the Link/Out from the same amp to the Ch 1 input of the next XTi (and it shouldn't matter which amp is first)...is this right?
And just to clarify, are you suggesting that I can just do the auto EQ inside w/ one speaker, and not take it outside first?
I personally would do both outdoor on PEQ, then indoor on GEQ but my measurements are somewhat different. If Gadget feels indoor only will do the job, I'm down with it because he is the expert on all things "auto".
You mentioned a delay time of 2.85ms. Earlier, we spoke of a delay time of 8.85ms for the outfills...is 2.85 a typo or is it a different delay time for a different purpose? I think we should change delay units to "Feet" in the DR and do an actual measurement in the club (or do outfill alignment on the outfill amplifiers). If you decide to do this, I will post a screen shot showing where to measure from and to.
Ok, all the info you need is in the file I sent you.
Thanks Gadget, I actually tried to open that file when I was setting SA up, but couldn't find a program to open it...who'd of thunk to use the one ALREADY SITTING ON MY DESKTOP :oops: :oops: :oops: .
I sat down and physically built the jack panel tonight. I like it, since it enables me to still hook up the speakers in a pinch directly to an amp and switch them back to full range (if something catastrophic were ever to happen to the 260 :shock: :shock: ).
I also got the rest of the patch cords in today. I'll scrap the mixer tomorrow, but I'm still going to wait until the beginning of next week to move the speakers and put the Driverack in (I want a full week to make sure I do it all correctly :roll: :twisted: ).
I also read one of your posts where you talked about an a/c duct that was creating reverberation problems for a speaker (it might have been a hypothetical duct you were using as an example, but...).......I moved my entire lightrack up in the air a foot (as high as I could go)...all 140' of it...my back is killing me now . I was worried that it may cause similar problems.
Dennis,
Yes, that was a typo (the 2.85ms instead of 8.85ms. When I set the delay in the XTi's it actually does it by distance and time (they both adjust together on the screen ). As I increased the delay time, it showed what that equated to in feet as well.
And, yes, I will absolutely accept your offer to help me w/ the distances (I couldn't have done ANY of this w/ out you guys 8) ).
also read one of your posts where you talked about an a/c duct that was creating reverberation problems for a speaker (it might have been a hypothetical duct you were using as an example, but...).......I moved my entire lightrack up in the air a foot (as high as I could go)...all 140' of it...my back is killing me now . I was worried that it may cause similar problems.
Not hypothetical, or theoretical...but actuality in the flesh. A monitor on stage aimed up (via the stage position) at a metal heating duct. Quite large and multiple rounded flanges that reflected the HF back to the mic.
Also ducts hanging from the ceiling, hard walls, and floors and ceilings. Get the sound on the people and off the boundaries.
G
And, yes, I will absolutely accept your offer to help me w/ the distances (I couldn't have done ANY of this w/ out you guys 8) ).
So, the screen shot I have posted is from the same prediction program but is minus the prediction…all that is left is basic architecture…dance floor and speakers. In the upper right hand corner is a small, bug like icon that represents a measurement mic. With my dual FFT program, I can measure time with pink noise and a mic. You will have to measure manually but we will use my mic position as a place to measure to.
For this explanation, imagine yourself standing close to the wall that the DJ booth is on, with your back to the wall, facing the speakers. The first measurement will be from the Right Main speaker to the microphone icon. Measure from the center of the face of the speaker to the mic icon location at about 5 feet above the floor. So, in other words, you are measuring to the mic location at about ear level. The second measurement is from the right outfill to the microphone icon. Subtract the smaller measurement from the larger measurement…the difference is the amount of delay that you will add to the right outfill. Since your system is symmetrical, you can add the same delay amount to the left outfill.
Due to the position of the outfill (which was selected for coverage), the first reflection off of the wall that it is aimed at is louder than the on axis sound at the microphone position. Carpet or drape on the end walls might be something to add to your wish list.
Ok, all the info you need is in the file I sent you... open up the GUI and select the crossover...Note that the hipass for the SRX 715's is 91hz BW48...the LPF is 1155hz BW48...the levels and Peq's and delays are all there also... make sure you verify that the information your copying is for the pass band you are working with (I.E. making sure that the midrange information gets into the 4000 and the High information gets into the 2000...)
Gadget,
Okay, I gave the System Architect another try tonight...and while I'm closer, I'm still not quite there :oops: .
A few questions...
1. I'm still having a time w/ the EQ settings. My options are the "EQ" button, which is comprised of "EQ Settings -High & Lo Shelf Filters, Sub Synth and EQ Filters", and then "EQ Out", which is comprised of "EQ Settings - EQ Filters, Q & Freq (I set the first channel in this window to a Q of 0.105, Freq 111.31 Hz & 0dB (according to the PEQ Band 1FC copied from the specs in the GUI...I only did the first channel since I'm uncertain here).
2. Should I run both of the outfill amps bridge-mono, since I'm only using one channel?
3. For the crossover settings, I used the LR 48, not the BW 48 (the GUI had L.R. 48 listed for both the XTi2000 and XTi6000...or did that mean left and right and not Linkwitz-Riley?) and I used BW6 not BS6 for the Lo Slope in the XTi2000 (there was no BS6?)...am I wrong here?.
After doing the exact measurements according to your prediction...I've realized that I'm limited on where I can place the right outfill by the bathroom entry way wall. I can get it pretty close to your design, though (within a few feet).
And I think I'll have to mirror the other side exactly (since they are going to be run in mono, both HF and LF drivers of both outfills running off of one channel each of the outfill amps...which means I only get to choose 1 delay time for both speakers)...is that right?
Due to the position of the outfill (which was selected for coverage), the first reflection off of the wall that it is aimed at is louder than the on axis sound at the microphone position. Carpet or drape on the end walls might be something to add to your wish list.
I thought about that when I was (theoretically) aiming the outfills. Maybe some snazzy 70's swag carpet...I could do that .
And I think I'll have to mirror the other side exactly (since they are going to be run in mono, both HF and LF drivers of both outfills running off of one channel each of the outfill amps...which means I only get to choose 1 delay time for both speakers)...is that right?
You can do your timing in the XTIs instead of the DR and have different delay times on each side.
Wait, after re-reading, I may have misunderstood something. I thought there were enough amp channels to go around and the only limiting factor was the DR's 6 outputs....now I just re-read some more and you have a 6000 and a 2000 for outfill...so you can do independent delays. It's all good.
I would think with a 2000 and a 6000 you would be able to run stereo (dual mono) and have complete control of the two outside speakers...(no need for left right stereo image...you'll sum the outputs in the DR on channel 6, but you'll be able to control everything else separately.. like delay, minute EQ differences etc. if needed)
When you go to set up the out fill 6000:
first the xover points
1. HPF 91 hz LR48 (the blue trace) LPF 1.155khz LR48 gain -1.7dB
next the Peq's
2. Low shelf peq, 182 hz, slope is 9dB/octave, add 3.5dB ( this is more like a tone control that adds to the lows up to xover point)
peq 1, 93.6 hz, Q= 2.996, gain= 3dB
peq 2, 250 hz, Q= 2.996, gain -2.0dB
peq 3, 500hz, Q= .993, gain -1.5dB
You'll still have many more peq's to work with if you need further tone shaping for the outfills...
Now, having shown you that simply transfer those numbers to the XTi 6000...Look at the program I wrote for you and follow what we did for the 6000, and transfer the 3's to the 2000 that show on the GUI... you can also transfer the limiter info, there is no alignment delay needed (which is strange) (unless they made the horn physically the exact length to match up with the woofer)
If you look closely to the High outs you will see that the LPF slope may be BS6... but the trace goes to 'OUT' meaning there is no lopass slope being allied to the highs, so disregard that all together.
Hey Dennis...
Yesterday I tried the "ground plane" on the auto eq... you said lay the speaker on it's side right? Compared to the "tipping" method , with the speaker standing up, but tilted down I feel it was a superior product. Less adjustment, much less drastic adjustments. The sound was more open, and airy by comparison (less mids). and less I had to do (except in the 3.15K area...) but it fed back a little more easily (HF)
This was the Anchor Extremes, and I am putting them together with some EV turbo manifolds for a gig this weekend @ the Eagles Club.. I know you said not to, but the average SPL there is maybe 95dBC and this is a VERY good band that plays mostly stuff like Steve Earl/Mellencamp... I set the Hipass on them @ 153hz and limited it heavily (brick wall) @ -3dB which makes 98dBC nearly impossible to achieve...
Hey Dennis...
Yesterday I tried the "ground plane" on the auto eq... you said lay the speaker on it's side right? Compared to the "tipping" method , with the speaker standing up, but tilted down I feel it was a superior product. Less adjustment, much less drastic adjustments. The sound was more open, and airy by comparison (less mids). and less I had to do (except in the 3.15K area...) but it fed back a little more easily (HF)
Yeah, the reason I like it is that I get a real clean trace in SMAART to work with...no "reflection dance"... and in most venues, the result of this baseline setting is ready to plug and play. Don't get me wrong, I want to tune my system in every venue but if something went wrong and I didn't have tuning time, I wouldn't be in big trouble.
Comments
4, NL4'female panel mounts, with one channel of the XTi 6000 wired to pins 1+/1- and one channel of the XTi 2000 wired to pins 2+/2- this x 4 connectors.. I would just use wire to the XTi screw terminals, and terminate in the NL4 female panel mounts.
since it's just an install you could simply hardwire the speakers and skip the jack panel...but if your buying premade cables then a jack.. panel would work as well..
G
G
Dennis
I'm still a bit :? ...I thought I had it, but then it slipped away again
The (4) NL4MP female connectors on the jack panel will be for all (4) of the JBL SRX715's, is this right?
If so...in my head...I've wired it like this:
1st XTi6000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-1) & (+1) of NL4MP#1 [Output to LF Mid (Left Side Main, Stereo)]
1st XTi6000 - Right Channel (-) & (+) to (-1) & (+1) of NL4MP#2 [Output to LF Mid (Right Side Main, Stereo)]
1st XTi2000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-2) & (+2) of NL4MP#1 [Output to HF Horn (Left Side Main, Stereo)]
1st XTi2000 - Right Channel (-) & (+) to (-2) & (+2) of NL4MP#2 [Output to HF Horn (Right Side Main, Stereo)]
2nd XTi6000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-1) & (+1) of NL4MP#3 [Output to LF Mid (Left Side Outfill, Mono)]
2nd XTi6000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-1) & (+1) of NL4MP#4 [Output to LF Mid (Right Side Outfill, Mono)]
2nd XTi2000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-2) & (+2) of NL4MP#3 [Output to HF Horn (Left Side Outfill, Mono)]
2nd XTi2000 - Left Channel (-) & (+) to (-2) & (+2) of NL4MP#4 [Output to HF Horn (Right Side Outfill, Mono)]
In my head this is correct. I hope it's correct in your's, too, haha.
Thanks.
Rob
Dennis
Gadget said it was going to be that simple, but I just didn't believe him, lol
I'll get it wired up now 8) .
I have all (4) of the XTi amps installed in the rack and also have all the new 13/4 AWG wire run to the new speaker locations. I'm still waiting on a couple of patch cords (I'm scrapping the Behringer mixer and running straight from the NS7 to the Driverack), but other than that I think I'm almost ready to hook up the 260 :shock: :shock: :shock: .
I have a pretty good handle on setting the gain structure w/ the NS7, have 30 min of pink noise, got the RTA-420 mic...
Still a little fuzzy on the settings on the XTi's w/ the CH 6 output of the 260, etc, though. I did say ALMOST ready
Former Coast Guard Aviation Electronics Tech... NON combatant ...with MANY years experience as a bar bouncer / closer though
Ok, so...when you go to set the 260 you will enter the config ...mode..
Tell you what... send me your email address and I'll send you a .dwp file for the 260...and I'll see if I can send you a file for the XTi running the out fills as well..if you want that is..you've been so good about doing what we've asked ..and you will learn from what we send you too, but it will get you up and running faster and with less mistakes.... but it's up to you...
G
Thanks!!! And, hell yeah, lol...I'll pm you my e-mail
We have so much in common...except we don't hunt...deer, lol.
Thank you, thank you, thank you
I got the .dwp file and loaded and saved it into the 260 as U1.
I'm still waiting on the last of the patch cords to permanently hook the NS7 up to the Driverack (I'm running XLR from the NS7 to TRS into my mixer, and then TRS to XLR from the mixer to the rack right now. I'm ready to set the gain structure, but I want to wait until I can take the mixer out of the ...mix
So, I guess it's now on to the Auto EQ. I already have a good handle on how to set the limiters once I set up the gain structure, or at least it's not causing me any anxiety like the Auto EQ :shock: :shock: :shock: .
I have a 50' XLR cable, the RTA-420 mic and from what I've read I'm planning on laying the mic on the dancefloor (slightly off-centered to avoid the slight null that Dennis mentioned would be running down the center of the dancefloor with the new speaker layout).
I could do the outdoor method, if you think it would be better...
Rob
An outside auto Eq, tops only, will get you a flatter setting...and that will help with the indoors setup because it will show you what the room is doing to the sound.
Glad we finally got you hooked up.. that was a bugger...
How you doin with Hi Q net System Architect?
G
I'll play w/ it some more on Sunday, after I dazzle the crowd tomorrow w/ my still mediocre sound system :twisted:
For my outdoor baseline measurements, I usually do a groundplane measurement with the speaker under measurement laying on it's side, on the ground and the starting point for the measurement mic is 12' with the mic aimed straight down at the ground with the capsule about 1/8" from the ground. Auto EQ might be happier with a distance other than 12'. This method gives me the cleanest trace and results I am most happy with when I set up at the next venue. Having said that, I'm aware there are many ways to skin a cat.
Once we go indoors, I am with you on measuring one main speaker only but I'm not sure I would do ground plane on the floor. If I was to do groundplane, I think I would place a sheet of plywood across two tables, preferably the ones you stand up at and set the mic on the plywood.
I believe the 260 has a stand alone RTA so after I finished with auto EQ, I would place the measurement mic on a stand at about 5' off of the floor and take readings on the RTA in many places just to check consistancy. The MAPP Online prediction program I used includes "Virtual SIM" and I placed a virtual measurement mic many places in the room and without doing any EQing anywhere, things were looking pretty good. There were some variations but they weren't huge.
Dennis
And just to clarify, are you suggesting that I can just do the auto EQ inside w/ one speaker, and not take it outside first?
Gadget,
I played w/ System Architect some more today. I think I only need to build the venue w/ just the (2) XTi's that will run the outfills, is that right?
I don't know enough yet to really try and set it up for good, but I did the easy stuff...summed the inputs together for Ch 1, set the delay time to 2.85ms, and changed the crossover settings (to an arbitrary setting for the time being), and saved the venue to one of the empty presets (preset #6) to my desktop. I MAY need some advice here, lol.
On a side note...when I wire the two XTi's together...I'm thinking it will look like:
Ch 6 output from Driverack to Ch 1 input of one of the XTi's. Then from the Link/Out from the same amp to the Ch 1 input of the next XTi (and it shouldn't matter which amp is first)...is this right?
Thanks, Rob
***On Edit - I tried uploading the parameters page for the first amp (just for shits and giggles to see if I could), but all I got was a picture of the amp at the top of the parameters page :oops:
yes!
Ok, all the info you need is in the file I sent you... open up the GUI and select the crossover...Note that the hipass for the SRX 715's is 91hz BW48...the LPF is 1155hz BW48...the levels and Peq's and delays are all there also... make sure you verify that the information your copying is for the pass band you are working with (I.E. making sure that the midrange information gets into the 4000 and the High information gets into the 2000...)
Correct
You are getting this! You go Rob!
G
You mentioned a delay time of 2.85ms. Earlier, we spoke of a delay time of 8.85ms for the outfills...is 2.85 a typo or is it a different delay time for a different purpose? I think we should change delay units to "Feet" in the DR and do an actual measurement in the club (or do outfill alignment on the outfill amplifiers). If you decide to do this, I will post a screen shot showing where to measure from and to.
Dennis
I sat down and physically built the jack panel tonight. I like it, since it enables me to still hook up the speakers in a pinch directly to an amp and switch them back to full range (if something catastrophic were ever to happen to the 260 :shock: :shock: ).
I also got the rest of the patch cords in today. I'll scrap the mixer tomorrow, but I'm still going to wait until the beginning of next week to move the speakers and put the Driverack in (I want a full week to make sure I do it all correctly :roll:
I also read one of your posts where you talked about an a/c duct that was creating reverberation problems for a speaker (it might have been a hypothetical duct you were using as an example, but...).......I moved my entire lightrack up in the air a foot (as high as I could go)...all 140' of it...my back is killing me now
Dennis,
Yes, that was a typo (the 2.85ms instead of 8.85ms. When I set the delay in the XTi's it actually does it by distance and time (they both adjust together on the screen
And, yes, I will absolutely accept your offer to help me w/ the distances (I couldn't have done ANY of this w/ out you guys 8) ).
Rob
Not hypothetical, or theoretical...but actuality in the flesh. A monitor on stage aimed up (via the stage position) at a metal heating duct. Quite large and multiple rounded flanges that reflected the HF back to the mic.
Also ducts hanging from the ceiling, hard walls, and floors and ceilings. Get the sound on the people and off the boundaries.
G
For this explanation, imagine yourself standing close to the wall that the DJ booth is on, with your back to the wall, facing the speakers. The first measurement will be from the Right Main speaker to the microphone icon. Measure from the center of the face of the speaker to the mic icon location at about 5 feet above the floor. So, in other words, you are measuring to the mic location at about ear level. The second measurement is from the right outfill to the microphone icon. Subtract the smaller measurement from the larger measurement…the difference is the amount of delay that you will add to the right outfill. Since your system is symmetrical, you can add the same delay amount to the left outfill.
Due to the position of the outfill (which was selected for coverage), the first reflection off of the wall that it is aimed at is louder than the on axis sound at the microphone position. Carpet or drape on the end walls might be something to add to your wish list.
I hope this was clear.
Dennis
Okay, I gave the System Architect another try tonight...and while I'm closer, I'm still not quite there :oops: .
A few questions...
1. I'm still having a time w/ the EQ settings. My options are the "EQ" button, which is comprised of "EQ Settings -High & Lo Shelf Filters, Sub Synth and EQ Filters", and then "EQ Out", which is comprised of "EQ Settings - EQ Filters, Q & Freq (I set the first channel in this window to a Q of 0.105, Freq 111.31 Hz & 0dB (according to the PEQ Band 1FC copied from the specs in the GUI...I only did the first channel since I'm uncertain here).
2. Should I run both of the outfill amps bridge-mono, since I'm only using one channel?
3. For the crossover settings, I used the LR 48, not the BW 48 (the GUI had L.R. 48 listed for both the XTi2000 and XTi6000...or did that mean left and right and not Linkwitz-Riley?) and I used BW6 not BS6 for the Lo Slope in the XTi2000 (there was no BS6?)...am I wrong here?.
Flame suit on...fire away, lol :shock: :shock: 8) .
Dennis,
Thanks, and yes, that made perfect sense
After doing the exact measurements according to your prediction...I've realized that I'm limited on where I can place the right outfill by the bathroom entry way wall. I can get it pretty close to your design, though (within a few feet).
And I think I'll have to mirror the other side exactly (since they are going to be run in mono, both HF and LF drivers of both outfills running off of one channel each of the outfill amps...which means I only get to choose 1 delay time for both speakers)...is that right?
I thought about that when I was (theoretically) aiming the outfills. Maybe some snazzy 70's swag carpet...I could do that
Thanks, Rob
Wait, after re-reading, I may have misunderstood something. I thought there were enough amp channels to go around and the only limiting factor was the DR's 6 outputs....now I just re-read some more and you have a 6000 and a 2000 for outfill...so you can do independent delays. It's all good.
Dennis
When you go to set up the out fill 6000:
first the xover points
1. HPF 91 hz LR48 (the blue trace) LPF 1.155khz LR48 gain -1.7dB
next the Peq's
2. Low shelf peq, 182 hz, slope is 9dB/octave, add 3.5dB ( this is more like a tone control that adds to the lows up to xover point)
peq 1, 93.6 hz, Q= 2.996, gain= 3dB
peq 2, 250 hz, Q= 2.996, gain -2.0dB
peq 3, 500hz, Q= .993, gain -1.5dB
You'll still have many more peq's to work with if you need further tone shaping for the outfills...
Now, having shown you that simply
If you look closely to the High outs you will see that the LPF slope may be BS6... but the trace goes to 'OUT' meaning there is no lopass slope being allied to the highs, so disregard that all together.
G
Dennis
Yesterday I tried the "ground plane" on the auto eq... you said lay the speaker on it's side right? Compared to the "tipping" method , with the speaker standing up, but tilted down I feel it was a superior product. Less adjustment, much less drastic adjustments. The sound was more open, and airy by comparison (less mids). and less I had to do (except in the 3.15K area...) but it fed back a little more easily (HF)
This was the Anchor Extremes, and I am putting them together with some EV turbo manifolds for a gig this weekend @ the Eagles Club.. I know you said not to, but the average SPL there is maybe 95dBC and this is a VERY good band that plays mostly stuff like Steve Earl/Mellencamp... I set the Hipass on them @ 153hz and limited it heavily (brick wall) @ -3dB which makes 98dBC nearly impossible to achieve...
G
Dennis
Oh yeah, nice signature..