1) Sidney was a shrink.
2) Was he the CID? guy that couldn't be put under without another one present?
3) Captain Hook? (No idea)
4) Henry Blake?
5) Peg?
6) Mildred?
No cheating I promise. How'd I do?
DRA
Hi Dra,
I just returned home from our Friday Night Flick...
1) Correct
2) Yes,...He was CIC Counter Intelligence Corps and he (Lt. Col. Sam Flagg) was the intelligence CIA type of guy always looking for communist...
3) Gary Burghoff "Radar" has a deformed hand and if you look real close you can catch it at times...
4) Correct
5) Correct
6) Correct... Mildred was also Blake's wife starting out...but her name was then changed to Lorraine...
You did very well!... I actually knew all of the answers except for the last one...
Now I remember Lorraine (actually recall her and not sure if I remember "her" as Mildred). How'd you know that?
DRA
Dra,
I didn't know that one (question 6)... I made up questions 1-5 on my own because I knew the answers...but I figured if I knew them that you surely would... I couldn't resist throwing in question 6...because I thought it might stump you...:)
If you do a google search under "mash trivia" you will find some pretty interesting reading... I also read that Radars teddy bear sold for $11,800.00 in an auction!...:shock:
trivial pursuit is a game best served up ...cold .. I guess...
You two crack me up...well.. thats cool Kevin, I would love to test out those babies. Last eve we were at a street dance providing extra racks and stacks to a sound contractor that had EV X line subs... 4 of em...these if you aren't familiar are a dual 18 inch that they call \"semi ( whats THAT supposed to mean? ) horn loaded subs...we brought just two Labs to the fracas...and 1 Mac 3600 (in serious need of re- capping) they were using 2 PLX 3402's, one sub per channel, The 2 Labs were far deeper (as in flap your pants and blur your vision) and almost twice as loud and were clearly punchy 2 blocks away. The contractor walked in front of his subs (on either side of the Labs) and listened to his subs and gave a satisfied nod, then walked in front of the labs and got this stunned look... got on his knees in front of them and listened for a couple minutes then walked away shaking his head... He later commented that he thought they were gorgeous sounding... stunning! and he was not so happy with his subs any longer....
Which P audio driver does the sub use? They are typically a very reasonable cost speaker... they actually have a 12\"... the BM 12 CX 38 that is amazing, and in a properly designed and tuned cabinet can be compared (audiophile audio enthusiast ) with some of the super high end speakers like Wilson Grand Slamm, JM Labs Grande Utopia, Genesis 1, Dynaudio Evidence, etc. (all over $50,000/pr). and are only around $250 each (through Jay at loudspeakers plus...)
I'm a bit upset with Eminence though... After about 5 years of absolute torture I had to replace the drivers in my primary venue 2 labsubs that get beat 5 nights a week... these the voice coil de-laminated and the end coil loosened up and got guillotined and they quit working! hmmm open circute perhaps? LOL no questions asked replacement.. The second batch of drivers failed in about 2 months (surrounds blew apart) they said it was over excursion... remember the first batch lasted 5 years... so I bought 4 more and they failed first gig? the cones ripped right off the voice coils... and to get warranty (and there is very little merit to the guarantee right now as I see it) I need to ship them to Jay at $25 bucks a pop to see if they will even warranty them...These are my subs only I use them I set up the system... nothing has changed yet the new drivers keep failing ... So I re-coned a batch instead of sending them in.. (about the same cost either way... and have had NO problems with them since...7 year warranty remember...Jay says they got really fussy all of a sudden...not sure why.
Any way... those puppies will have to be really something to impress this Labsub junkie... BUT...If they could be close.. and smaller that would be huge! Can't wait for the updates!
Gadget you said something that intrigued me. \"Re-capping the amp\"? I suppose that mean the large ones for power storage? But what are the symptoms that make you say that?.
One more question about amps. One of my amps has started tripping breakers at turn on. After one or two tries it will not trip the circuit. The amp's turn on switch is 15 amp breaker as well, but the 15 amp panel breaker is what is tripping (probably because of other demands). This has happened at the last two locations that I used this amp. At first I assumed that it was just an over used breaker, but when the second time happened.....
I'm a bit upset with Eminence though... After about 5 years of absolute torture I had to replace the drivers in my primary venue 2 labsubs that get beat 5 nights a week... these the voice coil de-laminated and the end coil loosened up and got guillotined and they quit working! hmmm open circute perhaps? LOL no questions asked replacement.. The second batch of drivers failed in about 2 months (surrounds blew apart) they said it was over excursion... remember the first batch lasted 5 years... so I bought 4 more and they failed first gig? the cones ripped right off the voice coils... and to get warranty (and there is very little merit to the guarantee right now as I see it) I need to ship them to Jay at $25 bucks a pop to see if they will even warranty them...These are my subs only I use them I set up the system... nothing has changed yet the new drivers keep failing ... So I re-coned a batch instead of sending them in.. (about the same cost either way... and have had NO problems with them since...7 year warranty remember...Jay says they got really fussy all of a sudden...not sure why.
Any way... those puppies will have to be really something to impress this Labsub junkie... BUT...If they could be close.. and smaller that would be huge! Can't wait for the updates!
Hi Gary,
I will speaking with a friend at Eminence tomorrow... If you don't mind I will forward your post to him so maybe he could get this resolved to your satisfaction... Yes,...I think this design has the possibly to be huge... That's why I want you to verify if it is or not...
One of my amps has started tripping breakers at turn on. After one or two tries it will not trip the circuit. The amp's turn on switch is 15 amp breaker as well, but the 15 amp panel breaker is what is tripping (probably because of other demands). This has happened at the last two locations that I used this amp. At first I assumed that it was just an over used breaker, but when the second time happened.....
Hello Dra,
I don't have to tell you that "coincidences do happen"... It could be the circuits where already close to being maxed out at both places… If you have another identical amp and could borrow a clamp-on ammeter (with peak lock-on) a comparison of the inrush current could be made between the two amps… You will need to rig-up an extension cord that will allow the clamp to be around only the hot wire... If the “trouble� amp is drawing a notable larger inrush by comparison when turned on...then you know you have found your problem… I don't know if it would be a cap problem or not... In your case I would lean more towards a transformer because inductive loads are usually resposible for high inrush...
Yes, I do have a matching amp in the same rack. that does not exhibit the same problem. I can normally run both amps on the same circuit (usually 20 amp max availabe) without a problem (DJ mode, so running pretty hard). I don't have an ammeter. You know of any \"trick\" like putting a bulb in series and looking for dimming ect?
Yes, I do have a matching amp in the same rack. that does not exhibit the same problem. I can normally run both amps on the same circuit (usually 20 amp max availabe) without a problem (DJ mode, so running pretty hard). I don't have an ammeter. You know of any "trick" like putting a bulb in series and looking for dimming ect?
DRA
I would try these things... Switch the loads on the two amps and see if the problem follows the load or not... Put a temporary switch between the trouble amp and the power source... Keep the amps main on/off switch on and use the temporary switch to power-up the amp... If the problem goes away you "got lucky" and the on/off/breaker switch is going bad.. If so order two because the other one may not be far behind... If I think of anything else I'll post again...
Ohhh I forgot...here's an "old school" trick: Turn the amplifier off and unhook your speaker cables... Crank the attenuators all the way up... Press your toung deep into the left side speakon jack and then power-up... Repeat the process with the other amp... Post back and let me know if trouble amp "tingles" more than the other...:)
Remember that you need to use at least a 1/2\" copper coated ground rod... driven in to the point that you can give that whiner \"helper the task of removing the rod from said ground\" and watch as he craps his pants trying to figure out how to do it without actually touching it...
This rod will provide the necessary current carrying capability to make sure that the ground plane is NOT the ignored and that the amp has mated with the earth... and isn't \"floating\" somewhere in space...
I bet that amp has a power supply issue... the question you asked is a good one... the answer is that you start to get power supply artifacts in the audio of the amp... remember that Caps DO NOT like heat... and that Crown has been hot enough to fry eggs many many times... in 14 years!!!!!! The Crown Mac series use a grounded bridge series design that floats the ground plane of the amplifier. That means that the audio leaks into the power supply and modulates the power supply and you hear the artifacts in the silent audio...and the driven sound. As Kevin said if you can monitor the input current at turn on you will learn a lot...
I appreciate the fact you would talk with the guys at EM... but if a high volume dealer like loudspeakers plus can't get any help how can you...? Unfortunately.. I had a failure last show and was forced to pull obviously warranty cones out and recone over night for a show next day...one cone broke free from the voice coil, and the other shows absolutely no discoloration or problems but is open....I could not afford to send it in and be verified OR denied... but i lost the warranty none the less by re-coning the speakers....
I will be very anxious to hear of the developments on this sub...old friend.. gimme a call some time if you get time..
G
K. - Are you suggesting that the power switch contacts have \"pitted\" or something causing an arc situation, which is pulling more power at the panel breaker?
Your second recommendation won't work because it is an older amp with binding posts only. Can I just use coat hanger wire inserted into each post instead?
K. - Are you suggesting that the power switch contacts have "pitted" or something causing an arc situation, which is pulling more power at the panel breaker?
Hello Dra,
Exactly,...I know if it were me that would be the first thing I would check (with fingers crossed) because the on/off switch could have an electrical/mechanical issue... You could use heavy duty switched outlet strip to test it with...
Just a thought: If the problem persist try plugging the amp into a heavy UPS (battery type) and then cycle power to the UPS... Maybe the UPS will keep the amp powered-up (maybe only for a minute) to help isolate a possible inrush problem... If this works without tripping the breaker then you can be pretty certain that it's the amp with exception to the on/off switch...
Just another thought: My previous "Just a thought" is pointless now that I think about it...:idea:
I think your hanger idea might work if you remove the enamel before testing...:)
I thought that it would be a moot point to actually have to specify the \"sanding\" of the hanger ends, so I didn't mention it. I would obviously keep the protective enamel in the areas where my hands would be holding the hangers. That would help insulate me from a possible shock.
I would obviously keep the protective enamel in the areas where my hands would be holding the hangers. That would help insulate me from a possible shock.
I finally got around to documenting Mr. Gadgets \"Super Duper Gain Structure Procedure\"... I highly recommend that you copy the following and paste it to a word document for your future reference... If anyone has any comments or questions please post them...:)
1. Turn amplifier(s) attenuators all of the way down to zero (fully counter clockwise), disable amplifier(s) clip limiters (if used), and disconnect the speaker cables.
2. Make sure all DriveRack dynamic processors like GEQ, Compressor, limiters, PEQ, AFS, SubSynth, etc., are disabled.
3. Play pink noise through one of input channels of the mixer because it's consistent dynamically...
Note: Please click here to download a 20 minute pink noise track (track58.zip) by courtesy of Michael \"Bink\" Knowles... His entire test CD can be found here...
4. Set the mixer input channel fader (with pink noise) at \"unity\" (0dB).
5. Disable the AFL(s) (after fader listen) on the mixers master output channel(s) and enable the PFL (pre fader listen) on the mixer input channel (with pink noise).
6. Turn up the mixer input channel gain trim pot (with pink noise) until meter bounces in the yellow at just about 3dB below clipping.
Note: If your mixer doesn't have PFL simply set the input gain just below the point where the channel \"clip light\" barely (occasionally) bounces on.
7. Disable the PFL on the mixer input channel and enable the AFL(s) on the mixer master output channel(s).
8. Slide your mixer's master fader(s) up until meter is just barely (occasionally) bounces in the red at clipping.
9. With the DriveWare GUI open the DriveRack panel meter and then one of the mixer input dialogs (click on the \"M\"). Put the master fader at “unity� (0dB). Watch the DriveRack’s panel meter and pull the input fader up or down until the output meters are bouncing in the yellow about 3dB just below clipping. Absolutely no clipping (red) on the DriveRack’s output panel meters!
10. Click on the other channel’s mixer input dialog (click on the “M�), set the master fader at “unity� and put the input fader at the very same location as the previous channel.
11. Turn up the amplifier gain trim pot (clockwise) until the amplifiers red clip light barely bounces on.
12. Turn back the amplifier gain trim pot (counter clockwise) about 3dB to 4dB from the clip position. Mark this position. This position provides approximately 3 to 4dB of headroom before clipping.
13. Repeat steps 11 and 12 for all amplifier(s) channels driven by the DriveRack.
Note: If you're planning on setting-up your DriveRack output limiters follow Mr. Dra's \"Super Duper Limiter Procedure\" (below) before going to step 14.
A. Determine the clip point of all amps by setting the gain structure.
B. After turning down the amp and marking the point where the amp stops clipping, turn the amp up to where it clips again.
C. Press the \"Comp / Limiter\" button 2 times to get to the Limiter section.
D. There is a limiter for each x-over section that it set up. For example: 2-way (Hi and lo) has 2 limiters, 3-way (hi, mid, & lo) has 3 limiters. Select the section that needs to be limited (all need to be limited).
E. For the selected output, select OverEasy as on. This gives a softer, less noticable limiting effect. Select setting 4 as a starting point.
F. Turn up the threshold until the amp stops clipping.
G. Return the amp to the previously marked spot.
H. Repeat steps E - G for all output bands.
Note: It is highly recommended to re-check the DriveRacks output limiters if the X-over gains have been changed, or if any \"enhancements\" have beem made using GEQ, PEQ, or SubSynth afterwards
Note: The DRPA, unlike the 260, DOES NOT have a brickwall limiter. For example: With a clip point for the amp at +20db and a limiter threshold at +17db and the limiter, depending on the use and setting of the OverEasy, may successfully reduce an output at the limiter section of a +19db input. But, if the signal spikes to +24 db. The limiter may reduce the output by 2 or 3db, but it WILL let pass the remaining peak output, which is well into, and beyond, the clip point of the amp.
Note: The DR260 can be set with a maximum \"Overshoot\". Regardless of the OverEasy setting, if the Limiter threshold is set to +17 db and the amp will clip at +20, the 260 can have an \"Overshoot\" set as 2db (or more). This feature (along with Attack and Hold time settings) will take a +24db signal that will be limited, starting at +17db, then at +19db the 260 slams the door and lets nothing more pass. The amp will never clip, if proper gain structure and limiter setting techniques are observed.
14. Bring mixer's master fader(s) all the way back down to off, re-enable your DriveRack’s dynamic processors, re-enable amplifier(s) clip limiters (if used), and reconnect the speakers.
Note: It is highly recommended to re-check the gain structure and output limiters if the X-over gains have been changed, or if any \"enhancements\" have beem made using GEQ, PEQ, or SubSynth afterwards. It is also recommended to keep the amplifier's clip limiters disabled If using the DriveRack's output limiters.
No I called and left a message... but no return yet...Jay has been a good supplier, but, I sent in those drivers and three weeks later I had NOTHING! I had to call and bug them and 5 WEEKS later I finally got 1 driver as a good faith effort...the other three drivers were denied for warranty... and acording to them they ALL should have been....now thats a bit ridiculous don't you think? 5 weeks for a determination? and then... I told them I NEEDED the three drivers I would have to buy by the weekend(this was Monday and only in Chicago))...... they \"misunderstood my \"implicit instructions that I needed the drivers NO MATTER WHAT!\" and got NONE... I had to RENT subs....Now this isn't the way I do business...
When I contacted them Jay wasn't available... but I was told that \"Eminience\" had had a run of problems with those drivers and they were not warranting much of anything these days... My email from Eminence indicated that there was NO issues with this driver but that people were using the LABs in 1 offs and over driving them and blowing them up and claiming warranty...I have used those subs in that club for way more than 5 years with the same settings... with either a MAC 3600 VLZ or QSC RMX 4050 with a DR 20 or better and never had a problem till the original drivers got soft...(6 days a week... 4-5 hours a day of pounding bass...)but well within the parameters set up by the designers on the PSW...To my way of thinking one driver fails in a cabinet which changes the impedance from 3.5 ohms nearly 7ohms... and the amp power is then a minimum of 1/3 less and starts to clip...The amps are a fair distance (50 feet) and a LOT OF BODIES away... the other driver now is doing double duty...If you don't catch it...
Sux...
Well ... gotta go.. keep up the good work guys...
G
Excellent!
However....
1) You may want to add an alternative channel set-up for those mixers that do not have PFL. Which to simply set the input gain just below the point where the channel \"Clip light ignites\". Then procede on.
2) Might want to add at the end that if PEQ cabinate \"enhancements\" are made that will be consistent for a particular system, such as a nice 3-6db boost in the 50 - 80 hz range, for example, or if they choose to use the Sub-Synth, or adjusting the x-over gains afterwords, then that can definately affect the end result that the amps see. In which case the limiters and amps will need to be re-visited.
These are both trivial, I know, but someboby......
1) You may want to add an alternative channel set-up for those mixers that do not have PFL. Which to simply set the input gain just below the point where the channel "Clip light ignites". Then procede on.
2) Might want to add at the end that if PEQ cabinate "enhancements" are made that will be consistent for a particular system, such as a nice 3-6db boost in the 50 - 80 hz range, for example, or if they choose to use the Sub-Synth, or adjusting the x-over gains afterwords, then that can definately affect the end result that the amps see. In which case the limiters and amps will need to be re-visited.
Hello Dra,
Excellent points!... I think I have your suggestions included properly?... Let me know if you think anything should be worded differently...:)
PS- Should detailed limiter setting procedures have a link from within the gain structure procedure?
Hi Dra,
I only know how Gary walked me through setting the limiters on the DR260... I did go back and disable the "artifacts" when I realized they were causing more harm than good... As you already know I'm not that familiar with the DRPA... Not trying to pass the buck here,...but I think you would do a much better procedure on setting up the limiters than I... I wouldn't mind writing something on setting time delay because I spent a lots time experimenting with a few different approaches...
Kevin, it would cool to put a link to this in your gain seminar with the note that it applys to the DRPA.
1. Determine the clip point of all amps by setting the gain structure.
2. After turning down the amp and marking the point where the amp stops clipping, turn the amp up to where it clips again.
3. Press the \"Comp / Limiter\" button 2 times to get to the Limiter section.
4. There is a limiter for each x-over section that it set up. For example: 2-way (Hi and lo) has 2 limiters, 3-way (hi, mid, & lo) has 3 limiters. Select the section that needs to be limited (all need to be limited).
5. For the selected output, select OverEasy as on. This gives a softer, less noticable limiting effect. Select setting 4 as a starting point.
6. Turn up the threshhold until the amp stops clipping.
7. Return the amp to the previously marked spot.
8. Repeat steps 5 - 7 for all output bands.
9. If you alter the x-over gains, redo this process.
10. If you alter the PEQ's to make enhancements to the system, redo this process.
11. If you engage the Sub-Synth, redo this process.
Note 1: The DRPA, unlike the 260, DOES NOT have a brickwall limiter. For example: With a clip point for the amp at +20db and a limiter threshhold at +17db and the limiter, depending on the use and setting of the OverEasy, may successfully reduce an output at the limiter section of a +19db input. But, if the signal spikes to +24 db. The limiter may reduce the output by 2 or 3db, but it WILL let pass the remaining peak output, which is well into, and beyond, the clip point of the amp.
Note 2:The 260 can be set with a maximum \"Overshoot\". Regardless of the OverEasy setting, if the Limiter threshhold is set to +17 db and the amp will clip at +20, the 260 can have an \"Overshoot\" set as 2db (or more). This feature (along with Attack and Hold time settings) will take a +24db signal that will be limited, starting at +17db, then at +19db the 260 slams the door and lets nothing more pass. The amp will never clip, if proper gain structure and limiter setting techniques are observed.
I just saw this (it looks great!) but I gotta go and get ready to do the \"Friday Night Flick\"... This week it's \"The End of Spear\"... I'll catch-up with you later this evening...
I'm back... That was an awesome movie... \"End of the Spear\" if you haven't seen it I highly recommend to rent it...
I think your write-up on setting the output limiters is excellent!... You opened my eyes to something that I never realized... In the application I installed I was mainly interested in using the limiters so the youth couldn't damage their hearing or the equipment... Because of the room size and the equipment I installed there is more than ample power (and high SPL) available... But in a larger venue or outdoor situation the DriveRack output limiters might be used to protect the amplifiers and/or speakers... Until I read your procedure this really never dawned on me... Because of this I didn't make the connection between setting proper gain structure and the output limiters... Now that I've made the connection it's obvious to me they compliment each other,...and it's best to set the limiters while going through the gain structure...
If you hadn't of wrote this procedure there is no telling if I would have ever put the two together...:)
Let me think about this for a moment to figure-out the best way to integrate these procedures...
When I try to link to your proceedure it just goes to the top of this page... I hope you don't mind but I integrated (copied and paste) it right into the \"Gain Structure\" procedure... Click here and tell me what you think...and if I should make any changes...
I didn't ask for anything fancy (forged aluminum frame, etc.) because it adds to the cost and it won't be seen after it's mounted... It has a huge voice coil and magnet...:)
Procedure: Assuming that you are going to keep the Word format, I would try to tweek it to sqweeze it to 2 pages. Maybe widening the margins a bit is all it would take.
Speakers: I never knew that you could have a custom \"1 off\" speaker built. What did that cost you? What do you have available to choose from? Is it an issue of basket depth, voice coil dia, power rating, magnet, surround, cone material that are just \"shelf\" items or do they actually \"custom\" build any of these?
We should get Gadget to proof read the \"Procedure\" and make sure that there are no errors or omisions.
Comments
Hi Dra,
I just returned home from our Friday Night Flick...
1) Correct
2) Yes,...He was CIC Counter Intelligence Corps and he (Lt. Col. Sam Flagg) was the intelligence CIA type of guy always looking for communist...
3) Gary Burghoff "Radar" has a deformed hand and if you look real close you can catch it at times...
4) Correct
5) Correct
6) Correct... Mildred was also Blake's wife starting out...but her name was then changed to Lorraine...
You did very well!... I actually knew all of the answers except for the last one...
Have a nice weekend!...
Kevin
DRA
I didn't know that one (question 6)... I made up questions 1-5 on my own because I knew the answers...but I figured if I knew them that you surely would... I couldn't resist throwing in question 6...because I thought it might stump you...:)
If you do a google search under "mash trivia" you will find some pretty interesting reading... I also read that Radars teddy bear sold for $11,800.00 in an auction!...:shock:
Cheers,
Kevin
You two crack me up...well.. thats cool Kevin, I would love to test out those babies. Last eve we were at a street dance providing extra racks and stacks to a sound contractor that had EV X line subs... 4 of em...these if you aren't familiar are a dual 18 inch that they call \"semi ( whats THAT supposed to mean?
Which P audio driver does the sub use? They are typically a very reasonable cost speaker... they actually have a 12\"... the BM 12 CX 38 that is amazing, and in a properly designed and tuned cabinet can be compared (audiophile audio enthusiast ) with some of the super high end speakers like Wilson Grand Slamm, JM Labs Grande Utopia, Genesis 1, Dynaudio Evidence, etc. (all over $50,000/pr). and are only around $250 each (through Jay at loudspeakers plus...)
I'm a bit upset with Eminence though... After about 5 years of absolute torture I had to replace the drivers in my primary venue 2 labsubs that get beat 5 nights a week... these the voice coil de-laminated and the end coil loosened up and got guillotined and they quit working! hmmm open circute perhaps? LOL no questions asked replacement.. The second batch of drivers failed in about 2 months (surrounds blew apart) they said it was over excursion... remember the first batch lasted 5 years... so I bought 4 more and they failed first gig? the cones ripped right off the voice coils... and to get warranty (and there is very little merit to the guarantee right now as I see it) I need to ship them to Jay at $25 bucks a pop to see if they will even warranty them...These are my subs only I use them I set up the system... nothing has changed yet the new drivers keep failing ... So I re-coned a batch instead of sending them in.. (about the same cost either way... and have had NO problems with them since...7 year warranty remember...Jay says they got really fussy all of a sudden...not sure why.
Any way... those puppies will have to be really something to impress this Labsub junkie...
G
One more question about amps. One of my amps has started tripping breakers at turn on. After one or two tries it will not trip the circuit. The amp's turn on switch is 15 amp breaker as well, but the 15 amp panel breaker is what is tripping (probably because of other demands). This has happened at the last two locations that I used this amp. At first I assumed that it was just an over used breaker, but when the second time happened.....
Any ideas?
DRA
I will speaking with a friend at Eminence tomorrow... If you don't mind I will forward your post to him so maybe he could get this resolved to your satisfaction... Yes,...I think this design has the possibly to be huge... That's why I want you to verify if it is or not...
Hello Dra,
I don't have to tell you that "coincidences do happen"... It could be the circuits where already close to being maxed out at both places… If you have another identical amp and could borrow a clamp-on ammeter (with peak lock-on) a comparison of the inrush current could be made between the two amps… You will need to rig-up an extension cord that will allow the clamp to be around only the hot wire... If the “trouble� amp is drawing a notable larger inrush by comparison when turned on...then you know you have found your problem… I don't know if it would be a cap problem or not... In your case I would lean more towards a transformer because inductive loads are usually resposible for high inrush...
Kevin
DRA
I would try these things... Switch the loads on the two amps and see if the problem follows the load or not... Put a temporary switch between the trouble amp and the power source... Keep the amps main on/off switch on and use the temporary switch to power-up the amp... If the problem goes away you "got lucky" and the on/off/breaker switch is going bad.. If so order two because the other one may not be far behind... If I think of anything else I'll post again...
Ohhh I forgot...here's an "old school" trick: Turn the amplifier off and unhook your speaker cables... Crank the attenuators all the way up... Press your toung deep into the left side speakon jack and then power-up... Repeat the process with the other amp... Post back and let me know if trouble amp "tingles" more than the other...:)
Kevin
This rod will provide the necessary current carrying capability to make sure that the ground plane is NOT the ignored and that the amp has mated with the earth... and isn't \"floating\" somewhere in space...
I bet that amp has a power supply issue... the question you asked is a good one... the answer is that you start to get power supply artifacts in the audio of the amp... remember that Caps DO NOT like heat... and that Crown has been hot enough to fry eggs many many times... in 14 years!!!!!! The Crown Mac series use a grounded bridge series design that floats the ground plane of the amplifier. That means that the audio leaks into the power supply and modulates the power supply and you hear the artifacts in the silent audio...and the driven sound. As Kevin said if you can monitor the input current at turn on you will learn a lot...
I appreciate the fact you would talk with the guys at EM... but if a high volume dealer like loudspeakers plus can't get any help how can you...? Unfortunately.. I had a failure last show and was forced to pull obviously warranty cones out and recone over night for a show next day...one cone broke free from the voice coil, and the other shows absolutely no discoloration or problems but is open....I could not afford to send it in and be verified OR denied... but i lost the warranty none the less by re-coning the speakers....
I will be very anxious to hear of the developments on this sub...old friend.. gimme a call some time if you get time..
G
Your second recommendation won't work because it is an older amp with binding posts only. Can I just use coat hanger wire inserted into each post instead?
DRA
Exactly,...I know if it were me that would be the first thing I would check (with fingers crossed) because the on/off switch could have an electrical/mechanical issue... You could use heavy duty switched outlet strip to test it with...
Just a thought: If the problem persist try plugging the amp into a heavy UPS (battery type) and then cycle power to the UPS... Maybe the UPS will keep the amp powered-up (maybe only for a minute) to help isolate a possible inrush problem... If this works without tripping the breaker then you can be pretty certain that it's the amp with exception to the on/off switch...
Just another thought: My previous "Just a thought" is pointless now that I think about it...:idea:
I think your hanger idea might work if you remove the enamel before testing...:)
Kevin
I thought that it would be a moot point to actually have to specify the \"sanding\" of the hanger ends, so I didn't mention it. I would obviously keep the protective enamel in the areas where my hands would be holding the hangers. That would help insulate me from a possible shock.
DRA
Kevin
Check your mail in regards to Eminence...:)
BTW, I would like to nominate Dra to help you out as another Moderator...:D
Kevin
Find out anything from Eminence?... Thought about my Moderator suggestion?...
Kevin
I finally got around to documenting Mr. Gadgets \"Super Duper Gain Structure Procedure\"... I highly recommend that you copy the following and paste it to a word document for your future reference... If anyone has any comments or questions please post them...:)
1. Turn amplifier(s) attenuators all of the way down to zero (fully counter clockwise), disable amplifier(s) clip limiters (if used), and disconnect the speaker cables. 2. Make sure all DriveRack dynamic processors like GEQ, Compressor, limiters, PEQ, AFS, SubSynth, etc., are disabled. 3. Play pink noise through one of input channels of the mixer because it's consistent dynamically...
Note: Please click here to download a 20 minute pink noise track (track58.zip) by courtesy of Michael \"Bink\" Knowles... His entire test CD can be found here...4. Set the mixer input channel fader (with pink noise) at \"unity\" (0dB).
5. Disable the AFL(s) (after fader listen) on the mixers master output channel(s) and enable the PFL (pre fader listen) on the mixer input channel (with pink noise).
6. Turn up the mixer input channel gain trim pot (with pink noise) until meter bounces in the yellow at just about 3dB below clipping.
Note: If your mixer doesn't have PFL simply set the input gain just below the point where the channel \"clip light\" barely (occasionally) bounces on.
7. Disable the PFL on the mixer input channel and enable the AFL(s) on the mixer master output channel(s).
8. Slide your mixer's master fader(s) up until meter is just barely (occasionally) bounces in the red at clipping.
9. With the DriveWare GUI open the DriveRack panel meter and then one of the mixer input dialogs (click on the \"M\"). Put the master fader at “unity� (0dB). Watch the DriveRack’s panel meter and pull the input fader up or down until the output meters are bouncing in the yellow about 3dB just below clipping. Absolutely no clipping (red) on the DriveRack’s output panel meters!
10. Click on the other channel’s mixer input dialog (click on the “M�), set the master fader at “unity� and put the input fader at the very same location as the previous channel.
11. Turn up the amplifier gain trim pot (clockwise) until the amplifiers red clip light barely bounces on.
12. Turn back the amplifier gain trim pot (counter clockwise) about 3dB to 4dB from the clip position. Mark this position. This position provides approximately 3 to 4dB of headroom before clipping.
13. Repeat steps 11 and 12 for all amplifier(s) channels driven by the DriveRack.
Note: If you're planning on setting-up your DriveRack output limiters follow Mr. Dra's \"Super Duper Limiter Procedure\" (below) before going to step 14.
A. Determine the clip point of all amps by setting the gain structure. B. After turning down the amp and marking the point where the amp stops clipping, turn the amp up to where it clips again. C. Press the \"Comp / Limiter\" button 2 times to get to the Limiter section. D. There is a limiter for each x-over section that it set up. For example: 2-way (Hi and lo) has 2 limiters, 3-way (hi, mid, & lo) has 3 limiters. Select the section that needs to be limited (all need to be limited). E. For the selected output, select OverEasy as on. This gives a softer, less noticable limiting effect. Select setting 4 as a starting point. F. Turn up the threshold until the amp stops clipping. G. Return the amp to the previously marked spot. H. Repeat steps E - G for all output bands.
Note: It is highly recommended to re-check the DriveRacks output limiters if the X-over gains have been changed, or if any \"enhancements\" have beem made using GEQ, PEQ, or SubSynth afterwardsNote: The DRPA, unlike the 260, DOES NOT have a brickwall limiter. For example: With a clip point for the amp at +20db and a limiter threshold at +17db and the limiter, depending on the use and setting of the OverEasy, may successfully reduce an output at the limiter section of a +19db input. But, if the signal spikes to +24 db. The limiter may reduce the output by 2 or 3db, but it WILL let pass the remaining peak output, which is well into, and beyond, the clip point of the amp.
Note: The DR260 can be set with a maximum \"Overshoot\". Regardless of the OverEasy setting, if the Limiter threshold is set to +17 db and the amp will clip at +20, the 260 can have an \"Overshoot\" set as 2db (or more). This feature (along with Attack and Hold time settings) will take a +24db signal that will be limited, starting at +17db, then at +19db the 260 slams the door and lets nothing more pass. The amp will never clip, if proper gain structure and limiter setting techniques are observed.
14. Bring mixer's master fader(s) all the way back down to off, re-enable your DriveRack’s dynamic processors, re-enable amplifier(s) clip limiters (if used), and reconnect the speakers.
Note: It is highly recommended to re-check the gain structure and output limiters if the X-over gains have been changed, or if any \"enhancements\" have beem made using GEQ, PEQ, or SubSynth afterwards. It is also recommended to keep the amplifier's clip limiters disabled If using the DriveRack's output limiters.
Enjoy!...:)
Kevin
No I called and left a message... but no return yet...Jay has been a good supplier, but, I sent in those drivers and three weeks later I had NOTHING! I had to call and bug them and 5 WEEKS later I finally got 1 driver as a good faith effort...the other three drivers were denied for warranty... and acording to them they ALL should have been....now thats a bit ridiculous don't you think? 5 weeks for a determination? and then... I told them I NEEDED the three drivers I would have to buy by the weekend(this was Monday and only in Chicago))...... they \"misunderstood my \"implicit instructions that I needed the drivers NO MATTER WHAT!\" and got NONE... I had to RENT subs....Now this isn't the way I do business...
When I contacted them Jay wasn't available... but I was told that \"Eminience\" had had a run of problems with those drivers and they were not warranting much of anything these days... My email from Eminence indicated that there was NO issues with this driver but that people were using the LABs in 1 offs and over driving them and blowing them up and claiming warranty...I have used those subs in that club for way more than 5 years with the same settings... with either a MAC 3600 VLZ or QSC RMX 4050 with a DR 20 or better and never had a problem till the original drivers got soft...(6 days a week... 4-5 hours a day of pounding bass...)but well within the parameters set up by the designers on the PSW...To my way of thinking one driver fails in a cabinet which changes the impedance from 3.5 ohms nearly 7ohms... and the amp power is then a minimum of 1/3 less and starts to clip...The amps are a fair distance (50 feet) and a LOT OF BODIES away... the other driver now is doing double duty...If you don't catch it...
Sux...
Well ... gotta go.. keep up the good work guys...
G
Excellent!
However....
1) You may want to add an alternative channel set-up for those mixers that do not have PFL. Which to simply set the input gain just below the point where the channel \"Clip light ignites\". Then procede on.
2) Might want to add at the end that if PEQ cabinate \"enhancements\" are made that will be consistent for a particular system, such as a nice 3-6db boost in the 50 - 80 hz range, for example, or if they choose to use the Sub-Synth, or adjusting the x-over gains afterwords, then that can definately affect the end result that the amps see. In which case the limiters and amps will need to be re-visited.
These are both trivial, I know, but someboby......
Good work.
DRA
Excellent points!... I think I have your suggestions included properly?... Let me know if you think anything should be worded differently...:)
Kevin
DRA
PS- Should detailed limiter setting procedures have a link from within the gain structure procedure?
I only know how Gary walked me through setting the limiters on the DR260... I did go back and disable the "artifacts" when I realized they were causing more harm than good... As you already know I'm not that familiar with the DRPA... Not trying to pass the buck here,...but I think you would do a much better procedure on setting up the limiters than I... I wouldn't mind writing something on setting time delay because I spent a lots time experimenting with a few different approaches...
Kevin
DRA
PS - I gave you props on a post I made a little while ago.
Thanks!... You're to funny!...
I'll be looking forward to your write-up!... Mr. Dra's \"Super Duper Limiter Procedure\"...:D
Kevin
1. Determine the clip point of all amps by setting the gain structure.
2. After turning down the amp and marking the point where the amp stops clipping, turn the amp up to where it clips again.
3. Press the \"Comp / Limiter\" button 2 times to get to the Limiter section.
4. There is a limiter for each x-over section that it set up. For example: 2-way (Hi and lo) has 2 limiters, 3-way (hi, mid, & lo) has 3 limiters. Select the section that needs to be limited (all need to be limited).
5. For the selected output, select OverEasy as on. This gives a softer, less noticable limiting effect. Select setting 4 as a starting point.
6. Turn up the threshhold until the amp stops clipping.
7. Return the amp to the previously marked spot.
8. Repeat steps 5 - 7 for all output bands.
9. If you alter the x-over gains, redo this process.
10. If you alter the PEQ's to make enhancements to the system, redo this process.
11. If you engage the Sub-Synth, redo this process.
Note 1: The DRPA, unlike the 260, DOES NOT have a brickwall limiter. For example: With a clip point for the amp at +20db and a limiter threshhold at +17db and the limiter, depending on the use and setting of the OverEasy, may successfully reduce an output at the limiter section of a +19db input. But, if the signal spikes to +24 db. The limiter may reduce the output by 2 or 3db, but it WILL let pass the remaining peak output, which is well into, and beyond, the clip point of the amp.
Note 2:The 260 can be set with a maximum \"Overshoot\". Regardless of the OverEasy setting, if the Limiter threshhold is set to +17 db and the amp will clip at +20, the 260 can have an \"Overshoot\" set as 2db (or more). This feature (along with Attack and Hold time settings) will take a +24db signal that will be limited, starting at +17db, then at +19db the 260 slams the door and lets nothing more pass. The amp will never clip, if proper gain structure and limiter setting techniques are observed.
Whatcha think?
DRA
I just saw this (it looks great!) but I gotta go and get ready to do the \"Friday Night Flick\"... This week it's \"The End of Spear\"... I'll catch-up with you later this evening...
Kevin
I'm back... That was an awesome movie... \"End of the Spear\" if you haven't seen it I highly recommend to rent it...
I think your write-up on setting the output limiters is excellent!... You opened my eyes to something that I never realized... In the application I installed I was mainly interested in using the limiters so the youth couldn't damage their hearing or the equipment... Because of the room size and the equipment I installed there is more than ample power (and high SPL) available... But in a larger venue or outdoor situation the DriveRack output limiters might be used to protect the amplifiers and/or speakers... Until I read your procedure this really never dawned on me... Because of this I didn't make the connection between setting proper gain structure and the output limiters... Now that I've made the connection it's obvious to me they compliment each other,...and it's best to set the limiters while going through the gain structure...
If you hadn't of wrote this procedure there is no telling if I would have ever put the two together...:)
Let me think about this for a moment to figure-out the best way to integrate these procedures...
Kevin
DRA
When I try to link to your proceedure it just goes to the top of this page... I hope you don't mind but I integrated (copied and paste) it right into the \"Gain Structure\" procedure... Click here and tell me what you think...and if I should make any changes...
Kevin
I didn't ask for anything fancy (forged aluminum frame, etc.) because it adds to the cost and it won't be seen after it's mounted... It has a huge voice coil and magnet...:)
Kevin
Speakers: I never knew that you could have a custom \"1 off\" speaker built. What did that cost you? What do you have available to choose from? Is it an issue of basket depth, voice coil dia, power rating, magnet, surround, cone material that are just \"shelf\" items or do they actually \"custom\" build any of these?
We should get Gadget to proof read the \"Procedure\" and make sure that there are no errors or omisions.
DRA