If yuri is correct - this is would be good news (imo) for dealers. The app is free, but only dealers can transfer files to it. Assuming the transfer software is a one time license fee for the dealer and not a per/device license, you can sell the service again and again at whatever price your dealership establishes. The outward message to end users is that the app is free, but system programming is needed to enable the application. Symantics, but I think this give you a good deal of flexibility with customers. Buy the system, get this for free -- or whatever. It also keeps the revenue with the dealer and not the app store.
The app might be $5.00, but how much does a license to use the app cost?
I don?t know if this is still the current pricing scheme but according to Residential Systems on September 16, 2009 the total cost at that time was $50.
Savant Systems has reduced the price of its iPhone home automation and control app from $200 to $50. Also, in a direct response to the challenging economy, Savant has eliminated the mobile device license fee from $1,000 (previous cost per license) to zero. So the new cost for the app and the license is now $50 where it used to be $1,200 per iPhone or iPod touch.
Today is the 4 month anniversary since TPC announced it was only hours away from launch.
Today is also the 1 month anniversary of when the anticipated maximum 2 week pre-release testing commenced using dozens of beta testers willing to donate their time.
I can?t help but wonder what exactly was ready to launch 4 months ago? And after all this time TPC still hasn?t committed to a price?
Why do I have the sinking feeling that:
?Operators are standing by. Please have your credit card ready. This one is going to hurt...?
Smart labor isn't cheap. It takes a lot of high priced talent to design, build, program, market, install, tshoot, etc these types of products/systems. I don't really understand why anyone would want to do all that work and then give their product away at cost or below. Since the TPC software replaces a more expensive touch panel with a lower priced iPhone/iPad, they are already bringing system prices down. What more could you want? Apple sold a million iPads when they came out. How long do you think it takes AMX to sell a million touch panels? If you expect an MVP 5200 to sell for the same price as an iPad you're just nuts. I have used the iPad to control a house, and a Sonos controller to control a Sonos system, and I much prefer using an MVP 5200i to control both. I hate capacitance screens so that alone alone kills it for me.
If this industry becomes Walmartized, then you can say goodbye to cool, custom programming, and we will all be stuck with the same basic, boring system like some of AMXs competitors. Not something I would want.
Paul
Again, couldn't agree more. I have absolutely no issues with expensive and premium products, as long as that premium is reflected in the product's quality when compared to cheaper alternatives (eg. no one would buy a Lamborghini if a little 2 door city run around would give them the same driving experience). Yes AMX have awesome tech support. Yes the masters are rock solid (well, unless you've got a heap of 3000's with the caps dying). However the interfaces, the only piece of the entire kit the end user (who is generally the person paying for it) has any direct contact with, the one component which is likely to make or break their perception of the system, currently gets its arse handed to it on a platter by the 2 door I mentioned above.
If you look at the figures for something such as the TP control app there is absolutely no need to charge some of the exorbitant prices that have been suggested just because it will still be cheaper than a 'real' panel. For an app of that complexity a 6 month development cycle isn't that far fetched. Say you had 3 staff working full time on the project at $80k salaries. On top of that you'd have the cost of some dev tools and hardware (maybe around the $20k mark). So over a six month dev cycle you'd be looking at around $140k development costs. Now if the app was licensed at $350 a pop it would only have to _ever_ sell 400 copies. I know the market has dropped off a bit but globally I guessing there's still enough installations being done to reach that target extremely quickly.
P.S. this is just speculation from my behalf and I could be waaaaay off.
For an app of that complexity a 6 month development cycle isn't that far fetched. Say you had 3 staff working full time on the project at $80k salaries. On top of that you'd have the cost of some dev tools and hardware (maybe around the $20k mark). So over a six month dev cycle you'd be looking at around $140k development costs. Now if the app was licensed at $350 a pop it would only have to _ever_ sell 400 copies. I know the market has dropped off a bit but globally I guessing there's still enough installations being done to reach that target extremely quickly.
P.S. this is just speculation from my behalf and I could be waaaaay off.
From what I have witnessed, there's at least 5 and probably more than 8 full time people involved at TPC. And they've been at this full time for at least 9 months, and probably more. And they work in a building somewhere, with utilities and such, probably not donated. And Apple (for distribution) and AMX (for licensing) will take part of the revenue. And the marketing costs haven't begun. And the ongoing support and upgrades will continue to take staff and money. And the people who put up the money to pay for this all very likely want more than just their original investment back. So I suspect your speculated figures are unrealistic. I think it will be hard for them to break even, no matter how good, no matter what price.
If yuri is correct - this is would be good news (imo) for dealers. The app is free, but only dealers can transfer files to it. Assuming the transfer software is a one time license fee for the dealer and not a per/device license, you can sell the service again and again at whatever price your dealership establishes. The outward message to end users is that the app is free, but system programming is needed to enable the application. Symantics, but I think this give you a good deal of flexibility with customers. Buy the system, get this for free -- or whatever. It also keeps the revenue with the dealer and not the app store.
What I meant is that the app can be installed on the iPhone/iPod, but TPTransfer won't transfer to your device if it isn't licensed At least, that's what i noticed when using the TPControl application.
The time has come to announce the closure of the "Pre-Release" trials and we are now preparing for the launch of TPC through the AppStore and opening www.touchpanelcontrol.com to the dealer community.
The program has been a success and we could not have advanced as far or as quickly as we have without their participation. We have had some great feature suggestions and a very proactive approach from the community.
iPad Compatibility
We are proud to announce that iPad compatability will be built in to our first release, allowing you to display glorious looking 1024 x 768 TP4 files on this impressive device. We look forward to announcing our launch after the Apple review has successfully completed.
--
Kind Regards,
Touch Panel Control Team
And Apple (for distribution) and AMX (for licensing) will take part of the revenue.
How do you figure that? Apple gets a 30% cut on the cost of the app. If the app is free then Apple gets nothing. Or maybe Apple gets a cut on the licensing? I?m not really sure how that works since the licensing doesn?t go through the app store and the license isn?t for the app (it?s used in the transfer program) but I?d be interested in finding out. I imagine Apple will want to get their share. If you know how the money flows please let us know.
Are you sure AMX gets a share in the revenue? That doesn?t coincide with what I?ve heard. Is this fact or speculation?
I think it will be hard for them to break even, no matter how good, no matter what price.
That?s a discouraging thought. Possibly true but nevertheless discouraging. I guess that can be said of any business venture. It?s not easy to make a buck.
I think it will be hard for them to break even, no matter how good, no matter what price.
If this is really true, why even do it? Sure, there is a little risk involved, but if there really is no potential to make money, then this is a colossal waste of everyone's time. I think there is a great potential to make money with this venture, but there is a window of opportunity and as has been said before, you only have one chance to make a first impression. If they price it too high, they won't have mass market appeal. If they price it too low, they run the risk of spinning their wheels and going nowhere as a business.
As for marketing, they don't have to do much marketing to the end client to be successful. They need to market to AMX dealers and potential AMX dealers. Most of this can be achieved for relatively little investment in the form of press releases that will almost definitely be picked up by the trade mags. Also, this forum is free and I'm sure has generated a lot of interest. As long as the product proves to be reliable and fairly easy to implement (and cost effective), they should do fine.
Also, this forum is free and I'm sure has generated a lot of interest
360 posts and nearly 12,000 views. I don't think I've seen a thread on these forums that's been watched more closely in the 4+ years I've been doing this. So I agree.
How do you figure that? Apple gets a 30% cut on the cost of the app. If the app is free then Apple gets nothing. Or maybe Apple gets a cut on the licensing? I’m not really sure how that works since the licensing doesn’t go through the app store and the license isn’t for the app (it’s used in the transfer program) but I’d be interested in finding out. I imagine Apple will want to get their share. If you know how the money flows please let us know.
Are you sure AMX gets a share in the revenue? That doesn’t coincide with what I’ve heard. Is this fact or speculation?
Apple has never allowed distribution schemes that use the APPLE STORE but avoid revenue share. The plan for this app is to have the app in the store FREE, and licensing via registered resellers (AMX Dealers only) apparently through online links with the AMX web site (perhaps explaining why TPC moved to the AMX network). APPLE will require a cut on actual resulting sales that is something like proportional to their normal cut or they will throw the app out of the store, making it only available to hacked/jailbroken devices and unappealing to the majority of owners... that's not speculation, it's policy and has happened to many developers. Now, they could start a new free use policy, but I bet they won't.
AMX will get a cut for their involvement and for the use of their licensed technology, that's not speculation, it's right from AMX executives (plural). They could be lying to me, but I bet they aren't. They created a whole new classification of partnership for this new and unique relationship with TPC, the "AMX Authorized Product Partner". That was a lot of work by a lot of corporate management and expensive legal staff, and I bet they didn't do that because it sounded like a fun thing to do for free.
This isn't evil. These are corporations that have invested millions in building the infrastructure that gives value to the work of new developers. They have a right to profit by their investment. If they don't, they fail and go away and we don't have them at all. So when we demand quality apps at near zero price, we are unrealistic. We wouldn't work for free, but we expect that "others" can prosper in that model... and should do so for our convenience.
The resulting products and their resulting prices are "calculated" by their makers to sell sufficiently to earn back the development costs and provide a profit for those who risked their money to fund the long project in the first place. Historically, 2 out of 3 such investments never make back the seed money.
It's up to marketing and sales departments to research and meet a feature and price point that results in sufficient sales volume and profit. Their jobs depend on getting it right. I'm sure they are reading this along with the other 11,000 people who have come to this forum for information on this product... so they are likely to see your opinions and decide on how to value them.
My statement about it being hard to make a profit on this product is my opinion based on what I know has to be million-plus investment in development and probably at least half that again for the next year of business/support after release, compared to some dealers who feel that $5 is the price they deserve... in a market that is a subset of the AMX hardware install base. To replace panels they have already built their dealerships around that sell for $5,000 and more.
By the way, this message is for the 11,000 who come here for information, not the very few who come to bash.
Apple has never allowed distribution schemes that use the APPLE STORE but avoid revenue share.
I'm told this is wrong. It could be. I posted this based on reading many accounts about how Apple manages to get money if the developer makes money, and drops the app from the store if they don't. We'll see.
APPLE will require a cut on actual resulting sales that is something like proportional to their normal cut or they will throw the app out of the store
Do you happen to know what that cut is? Just curious how much you save when you handle the money yourself. Does Apple then require some sort of transaction report from the app owner to prove the sales numbers?
AMX will get a cut for their involvement and for the use of their licensed technology, that's not speculation, it's right from AMX executives (plural).
After I posted my comment I realized it?s none of my dang business whether AMX gets a cut or not. I?m not going to edit the post but I would like to retract the comment.
I do want to know how Apple works (since that should be public knowledge) but as far as the rest goes let whoever charge whatever they want. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything.
I do hope TPC is successful especially if that means AMX is successful because then that means I?ll be successful. In one way or another we?re all in this together whether we like it or not.
I'm told this is wrong. It could be. I posted this based on reading many accounts about how Apple manages to get money if the developer makes money, and drops the app from the store if they don't. We'll see.
Didn't see this until after I posted. Let us know what you find out.
By the way, this message is for the 11,000 who come here for information, not the very few who come to bash.
I haven't really seen any bashing, maybe some wishful thinking but I believe deep inside everyone expects a realistic price. I still hold to my my $399 - $599(?) guestimate but could concieve a higher number depending on the extent of AMX's involvement in this decision. IMHO AMX will have the most to say in this matter and I don't talk to the exec and actually like it that way. Of course if selling iPhone/iPads can help generate more systems sales taking a hit on licensing fees to make it up on other sales could offset any losses and actuall net them a huge gain but I think that requires a bigger footprint in the resi market which IMHO they see to be moving away from since that's where those bashing small guys fit in.
John Nagy wrote:
This isn't evil. These are corporations that have invested millions in building the infrastructure that gives value to the work of new developers. They have a right to profit by their investment. If they don't, they fail and go away and we don't have them at all. So when we demand quality apps at near zero price, we are unrealistic. We wouldn't work for free, but we expect that "others" can prosper in that model... and should do so for our convenience.
The resulting products and their resulting prices are "calculated" by their makers to sell sufficiently to earn back the development costs and provide a profit for those who risked their money to fund the long project in the first place. Historically, 2 out of 3 such investments never make back the seed money.
It's up to marketing and sales departments to research and meet a feature and price point that results in sufficient sales volume and profit. Their jobs depend on getting it right. I'm sure they are reading this along with the other 11,000 people who have come to this forum for information on this product... so they are likely to see your opinions and decide on how to value them.
My statement about it being hard to make a profit on this product is my opinion based on what I know has to be million-plus investment in development and probably at least half that again for the next year of business/support after release, compared to some dealers who feel that $5 is the price they deserve... in a market that is a subset of the AMX hardware install base. To replace panels they have already built their dealerships around that sell for $5,000 and more.
Although it pains me to say it I completely agree and I'm sure they have marketing strategist, bean counters and all sorts of other folks trying to figure out what the market will bare, what will keep folks happy while still making the regular TP line attractive. Wondering where the market is heading and what happens when something else comes out tomorrow that will replace the iPod/iPad's dominance in the market. It's all a craps shoot and partially russian roulette and I can easily see them loosing money in the over all scheme of things if "The Price Isn't Right" and that can happen if the price is too high or too low.
Comments
and some chars
Hopefully cheaper than the Savant one which is (i believe) $5.00 now.
The app might be $5.00, but how much does a license to use the app cost?
Jeff
the app is free, but you need a license to use TPTransfer
I don?t know if this is still the current pricing scheme but according to Residential Systems on September 16, 2009 the total cost at that time was $50.
I don?t think I?m breaking any beta testing rules by stating that unless things change, the license is per device.
Today is also the 1 month anniversary of when the anticipated maximum 2 week pre-release testing commenced using dozens of beta testers willing to donate their time.
I can?t help but wonder what exactly was ready to launch 4 months ago? And after all this time TPC still hasn?t committed to a price?
Why do I have the sinking feeling that:
?Operators are standing by. Please have your credit card ready. This one is going to hurt...?
The saga continues...
I disagree. I would say, however, that the "I want to sell something for way too much" attitude of this industry is just getting old... that's all.
Joe Hebert wrote: You need to ask TPC's new puppet master for that answer.
Couldn't agree more.
Smart labor isn't cheap. It takes a lot of high priced talent to design, build, program, market, install, tshoot, etc these types of products/systems. I don't really understand why anyone would want to do all that work and then give their product away at cost or below. Since the TPC software replaces a more expensive touch panel with a lower priced iPhone/iPad, they are already bringing system prices down. What more could you want? Apple sold a million iPads when they came out. How long do you think it takes AMX to sell a million touch panels? If you expect an MVP 5200 to sell for the same price as an iPad you're just nuts. I have used the iPad to control a house, and a Sonos controller to control a Sonos system, and I much prefer using an MVP 5200i to control both. I hate capacitance screens so that alone alone kills it for me.
If this industry becomes Walmartized, then you can say goodbye to cool, custom programming, and we will all be stuck with the same basic, boring system like some of AMXs competitors. Not something I would want.
Paul
Again, couldn't agree more. I have absolutely no issues with expensive and premium products, as long as that premium is reflected in the product's quality when compared to cheaper alternatives (eg. no one would buy a Lamborghini if a little 2 door city run around would give them the same driving experience). Yes AMX have awesome tech support. Yes the masters are rock solid (well, unless you've got a heap of 3000's with the caps dying). However the interfaces, the only piece of the entire kit the end user (who is generally the person paying for it) has any direct contact with, the one component which is likely to make or break their perception of the system, currently gets its arse handed to it on a platter by the 2 door I mentioned above.
If you look at the figures for something such as the TP control app there is absolutely no need to charge some of the exorbitant prices that have been suggested just because it will still be cheaper than a 'real' panel. For an app of that complexity a 6 month development cycle isn't that far fetched. Say you had 3 staff working full time on the project at $80k salaries. On top of that you'd have the cost of some dev tools and hardware (maybe around the $20k mark). So over a six month dev cycle you'd be looking at around $140k development costs. Now if the app was licensed at $350 a pop it would only have to _ever_ sell 400 copies. I know the market has dropped off a bit but globally I guessing there's still enough installations being done to reach that target extremely quickly.
P.S. this is just speculation from my behalf and I could be waaaaay off.
From what I have witnessed, there's at least 5 and probably more than 8 full time people involved at TPC. And they've been at this full time for at least 9 months, and probably more. And they work in a building somewhere, with utilities and such, probably not donated. And Apple (for distribution) and AMX (for licensing) will take part of the revenue. And the marketing costs haven't begun. And the ongoing support and upgrades will continue to take staff and money. And the people who put up the money to pay for this all very likely want more than just their original investment back. So I suspect your speculated figures are unrealistic. I think it will be hard for them to break even, no matter how good, no matter what price.
What I meant is that the app can be installed on the iPhone/iPod, but TPTransfer won't transfer to your device if it isn't licensed
Here it is just in case you don't
How do you figure that? Apple gets a 30% cut on the cost of the app. If the app is free then Apple gets nothing. Or maybe Apple gets a cut on the licensing? I?m not really sure how that works since the licensing doesn?t go through the app store and the license isn?t for the app (it?s used in the transfer program) but I?d be interested in finding out. I imagine Apple will want to get their share. If you know how the money flows please let us know.
Are you sure AMX gets a share in the revenue? That doesn?t coincide with what I?ve heard. Is this fact or speculation?
That?s a discouraging thought. Possibly true but nevertheless discouraging. I guess that can be said of any business venture. It?s not easy to make a buck.
If this is really true, why even do it? Sure, there is a little risk involved, but if there really is no potential to make money, then this is a colossal waste of everyone's time. I think there is a great potential to make money with this venture, but there is a window of opportunity and as has been said before, you only have one chance to make a first impression. If they price it too high, they won't have mass market appeal. If they price it too low, they run the risk of spinning their wheels and going nowhere as a business.
As for marketing, they don't have to do much marketing to the end client to be successful. They need to market to AMX dealers and potential AMX dealers. Most of this can be achieved for relatively little investment in the form of press releases that will almost definitely be picked up by the trade mags. Also, this forum is free and I'm sure has generated a lot of interest. As long as the product proves to be reliable and fairly easy to implement (and cost effective), they should do fine.
IMHO,
Jeff
Apple has never allowed distribution schemes that use the APPLE STORE but avoid revenue share. The plan for this app is to have the app in the store FREE, and licensing via registered resellers (AMX Dealers only) apparently through online links with the AMX web site (perhaps explaining why TPC moved to the AMX network). APPLE will require a cut on actual resulting sales that is something like proportional to their normal cut or they will throw the app out of the store, making it only available to hacked/jailbroken devices and unappealing to the majority of owners... that's not speculation, it's policy and has happened to many developers. Now, they could start a new free use policy, but I bet they won't.
AMX will get a cut for their involvement and for the use of their licensed technology, that's not speculation, it's right from AMX executives (plural). They could be lying to me, but I bet they aren't. They created a whole new classification of partnership for this new and unique relationship with TPC, the "AMX Authorized Product Partner". That was a lot of work by a lot of corporate management and expensive legal staff, and I bet they didn't do that because it sounded like a fun thing to do for free.
This isn't evil. These are corporations that have invested millions in building the infrastructure that gives value to the work of new developers. They have a right to profit by their investment. If they don't, they fail and go away and we don't have them at all. So when we demand quality apps at near zero price, we are unrealistic. We wouldn't work for free, but we expect that "others" can prosper in that model... and should do so for our convenience.
The resulting products and their resulting prices are "calculated" by their makers to sell sufficiently to earn back the development costs and provide a profit for those who risked their money to fund the long project in the first place. Historically, 2 out of 3 such investments never make back the seed money.
It's up to marketing and sales departments to research and meet a feature and price point that results in sufficient sales volume and profit. Their jobs depend on getting it right. I'm sure they are reading this along with the other 11,000 people who have come to this forum for information on this product... so they are likely to see your opinions and decide on how to value them.
My statement about it being hard to make a profit on this product is my opinion based on what I know has to be million-plus investment in development and probably at least half that again for the next year of business/support after release, compared to some dealers who feel that $5 is the price they deserve... in a market that is a subset of the AMX hardware install base. To replace panels they have already built their dealerships around that sell for $5,000 and more.
By the way, this message is for the 11,000 who come here for information, not the very few who come to bash.
I'm told this is wrong. It could be. I posted this based on reading many accounts about how Apple manages to get money if the developer makes money, and drops the app from the store if they don't. We'll see.
After I posted my comment I realized it?s none of my dang business whether AMX gets a cut or not. I?m not going to edit the post but I would like to retract the comment.
I do want to know how Apple works (since that should be public knowledge) but as far as the rest goes let whoever charge whatever they want. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything.
I do hope TPC is successful especially if that means AMX is successful because then that means I?ll be successful. In one way or another we?re all in this together whether we like it or not.
Who said or implied this is evil?
John Nagy wrote:
Although it pains me to say it I completely agree and I'm sure they have marketing strategist, bean counters and all sorts of other folks trying to figure out what the market will bare, what will keep folks happy while still making the regular TP line attractive. Wondering where the market is heading and what happens when something else comes out tomorrow that will replace the iPod/iPad's dominance in the market. It's all a craps shoot and partially russian roulette and I can easily see them loosing money in the over all scheme of things if "The Price Isn't Right" and that can happen if the price is too high or too low.